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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Put a whole society on a tightrope without a net and wait]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:37:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>For a while...<p>...yes, there can be convergence around a single "best" design that seems to sweep up competing formats (species, products, etc).<p>
In evolution, for example, there is a trend towards gigantism. &nbsp;The sabertooth tiger...the wooly mammoth. &nbsp; &nbsp;However, what's good in the short term for bullying around a bunch of shrimp is not good when some gigantic cataclysm hits.<p>
Microsoft for example was seeming invincible -- until the Internet arrived and people figured out how to build software themselves. &nbsp; Now its crumbling into a heap and Linux and OSS is taking over.

<p>John Bailo<br>
<a href="http://supratext.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">Supratext:</a></br></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>For a while...<p>...yes, there can be convergence around a single "best" design that seems to sweep up competing formats (species, products, etc).<p>
In evolution, for example, there is a trend towards gigantism. &nbsp;The sabertooth tiger...the wooly mammoth. &nbsp; &nbsp;However, what's good in the short term for bullying around a bunch of shrimp is not good when some gigantic cataclysm hits.<p>
Microsoft for example was seeming invincible -- until the Internet arrived and people figured out how to build software themselves. &nbsp; Now its crumbling into a heap and Linux and OSS is taking over.

<p>John Bailo<br>
<a href="http://supratext.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">Supratext:</a></br></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Kit Stolz</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 16:04:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>also note: consensus in Britain</strong></p><p>Excellent essay, and a good lead-in introduction as well. </p><p>
After seeing the worst floods in two hundred years, the Brits (from the liberal Prime Minister, to Jon Finch, an Oxford University scientist, to the conservative Daily Telegraph) agree that this is not just a rainy summer, this is climate change; or, as some say, climate chaos. </p><p>
&nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>also note: consensus in Britain</strong></p><p>Excellent essay, and a good lead-in introduction as well. </p><p>
After seeing the worst floods in two hundred years, the Brits (from the liberal Prime Minister, to Jon Finch, an Oxford University scientist, to the conservative Daily Telegraph) agree that this is not just a rainy summer, this is climate change; or, as some say, climate chaos. </p><p>
&nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:23:38 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>So how do we move to a dispersed, local, ag...</strong></p><p>..agriculture system, that is resilient? &nbsp;Do local/state/federal governments need to buy up farms all over the country and just do it? &nbsp;Buy up some suburbs? &nbsp;Is there some kind of regulatory regime that could accomplish the same thing? &nbsp;Or do we just wait for agricultural collapse, and then the government can move in with very strict regulations?</p>
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				<p><strong>So how do we move to a dispersed, local, ag...</strong></p><p>..agriculture system, that is resilient? &nbsp;Do local/state/federal governments need to buy up farms all over the country and just do it? &nbsp;Buy up some suburbs? &nbsp;Is there some kind of regulatory regime that could accomplish the same thing? &nbsp;Or do we just wait for agricultural collapse, and then the government can move in with very strict regulations?</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Matt G</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:32:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Any fool</strong></p><p>can build a bridge. &nbsp;It takes an engineer to build one that barely stands up.</p><p>
Nature's actually pretty good at optimization - it just has a much longer history than we do and has learned more lessons. &nbsp;It's wasteful, both to mankind and to the environment, to build a levy that can withstand anything. &nbsp;But then it's wasteful to build one that won't withstand enough. &nbsp;I think as we come to understand how we're changing our world, we will begin to understand how much is "enough".</p>
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				<p><strong>Any fool</strong></p><p>can build a bridge. &nbsp;It takes an engineer to build one that barely stands up.</p><p>
Nature's actually pretty good at optimization - it just has a much longer history than we do and has learned more lessons. &nbsp;It's wasteful, both to mankind and to the environment, to build a levy that can withstand anything. &nbsp;But then it's wasteful to build one that won't withstand enough. &nbsp;I think as we come to understand how we're changing our world, we will begin to understand how much is "enough".</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:43:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Towards a resilient economy...</strong></p><p>The author writes, correctly I believe:Our current economic system is designed to maximize outputs and minimize costs. (That's what we call efficiency.) Efficiency eliminates redundancy, which is abundant in nature, in favor of finding the one "best" way of doing something -- usually "best" means most profitable over the short run -- and then doing it that way and that way only.</p><p>
This implies to me that we have to throw out capitalism, a system I think may have been appropriate for growing an economy as fast as possible without regard to environmental consequences and with unlimited supplies of cheap energy and other resources. Now it seems to me our situation demands a rethink of how we "make our living" if we are to save the Earth.</p><p>
Now of course centralized command-and-control economies have also been discredited. So we really need to come up with something new. I think we could put our collective heads together to come up such a new system. But I just don't see enough people thinking outside of the box.</p>
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				<p><strong>Towards a resilient economy...</strong></p><p>The author writes, correctly I believe:Our current economic system is designed to maximize outputs and minimize costs. (That's what we call efficiency.) Efficiency eliminates redundancy, which is abundant in nature, in favor of finding the one "best" way of doing something -- usually "best" means most profitable over the short run -- and then doing it that way and that way only.</p><p>
This implies to me that we have to throw out capitalism, a system I think may have been appropriate for growing an economy as fast as possible without regard to environmental consequences and with unlimited supplies of cheap energy and other resources. Now it seems to me our situation demands a rethink of how we "make our living" if we are to save the Earth.</p><p>
Now of course centralized command-and-control economies have also been discredited. So we really need to come up with something new. I think we could put our collective heads together to come up such a new system. But I just don't see enough people thinking outside of the box.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:14:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>I think you have it</strong></p><p>That's exactly right -- we need a mixed economy, with a form of socialism for managing the critical life support needs of this planet sized spaceship, with capitalism (which is exceedingly efficient at meeting wants) retained for the non-essential goods and services sector.</p><p>
In other words, we need what are essentially Scandanavian policies. &nbsp;Necessaries (food, clothing, shelter, health care, and education) are distributed equitably according to need; luxuries are available and distributed through capitalism. &nbsp;High taxes well-accepted because they provide high services, which support high quality of life and longevity. </p><p>
I'm not sure how many people are aware of what a radical thing that Norway has done with its North Sea oil wealth, to take just one example of how much better we could have it: &nbsp;they banked it. &nbsp;They recognized early on that it would be a one-shot deal, and rather than squandering the wealth on a big party for a few billionaires, they took the money and banked it to meet the needs of the whole society (which is a good thing, because they've already peaked).</p><p>
So I'm not sure that the thinking hasn't been done--most of it has, and the best practices are in place in various settings. &nbsp;The developed country that does the worst by its citizens is, you guessed it, the good ol' USA, where painting government as the enemy was raised to an art form by Ronnie Ray-gun, reading scripts prepared by leading economic thinkers like Uncle Milty Friedman channeling Any Rand.</p><p>
What our system of state capitalism has to contend with is that while it's very, very, very good for a tiny slice at the top, it's very bad for a vast chunk in the middle and disastrous for the vaster chunk at the bottom. &nbsp;</p><p>
The job of the media is to prevent those at the bottom from understanding any of this, especially how our economics works to transfer wealth to the wealthy and how our politicians are bought and sold in a market that could be put out of business in an instant if campaigns were publicly financed (which is why this is derided as "welfare for politicians" -- because it threatens the masters who need to keep politicians in dire need of contributions at all times).</p><p>
Alas, this is a very wasteful way to organize a society, as its "winner take all" nature inevitably means that the wealthy have the absolute right to squander vital resources just as much as if they literally took the bread off the tables of the poor -- which is what we're gearing up to do with biofuels.

<p>Save the world:  Reduce greenhouse gas emissions 5% annually.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>I think you have it</strong></p><p>That's exactly right -- we need a mixed economy, with a form of socialism for managing the critical life support needs of this planet sized spaceship, with capitalism (which is exceedingly efficient at meeting wants) retained for the non-essential goods and services sector.</p><p>
In other words, we need what are essentially Scandanavian policies. &nbsp;Necessaries (food, clothing, shelter, health care, and education) are distributed equitably according to need; luxuries are available and distributed through capitalism. &nbsp;High taxes well-accepted because they provide high services, which support high quality of life and longevity. </p><p>
I'm not sure how many people are aware of what a radical thing that Norway has done with its North Sea oil wealth, to take just one example of how much better we could have it: &nbsp;they banked it. &nbsp;They recognized early on that it would be a one-shot deal, and rather than squandering the wealth on a big party for a few billionaires, they took the money and banked it to meet the needs of the whole society (which is a good thing, because they've already peaked).</p><p>
So I'm not sure that the thinking hasn't been done--most of it has, and the best practices are in place in various settings. &nbsp;The developed country that does the worst by its citizens is, you guessed it, the good ol' USA, where painting government as the enemy was raised to an art form by Ronnie Ray-gun, reading scripts prepared by leading economic thinkers like Uncle Milty Friedman channeling Any Rand.</p><p>
What our system of state capitalism has to contend with is that while it's very, very, very good for a tiny slice at the top, it's very bad for a vast chunk in the middle and disastrous for the vaster chunk at the bottom. &nbsp;</p><p>
The job of the media is to prevent those at the bottom from understanding any of this, especially how our economics works to transfer wealth to the wealthy and how our politicians are bought and sold in a market that could be put out of business in an instant if campaigns were publicly financed (which is why this is derided as "welfare for politicians" -- because it threatens the masters who need to keep politicians in dire need of contributions at all times).</p><p>
Alas, this is a very wasteful way to organize a society, as its "winner take all" nature inevitably means that the wealthy have the absolute right to squander vital resources just as much as if they literally took the bread off the tables of the poor -- which is what we're gearing up to do with biofuels.

<p>Save the world:  Reduce greenhouse gas emissions 5% annually.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Rune</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:26:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>I mostly agree, JMG<p>No time for details, but I think a mix of economic ideas and modalities is critical to transforming the way we use and value physical resources. &nbsp;One point that gets overlooked is the connection between a large, impersonal, transaction based economic allocation and decision making system and the propensity to do things that harm others, quite possibly to a greater extent than a few are advantaged, all in the name of economic progress. &nbsp;It is much more difficult to pull that off in a system in which people have ongoing and direct relationships with the people who are exchanging or collaborating in the development and use of goods and services. &nbsp;It is also more difficult to go crazy with planet altering economic activity when you do more of your producing and consuming on such an intimate level with the number of human beings that you are able to know and appreciate to some extent. &nbsp;Just something to think about.<p>
By the way, there was an interesting conversation that turned into an exploration of the concept of resilience <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/6/19/12229/8298" rel="nofollow">about a month ago.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>I mostly agree, JMG<p>No time for details, but I think a mix of economic ideas and modalities is critical to transforming the way we use and value physical resources. &nbsp;One point that gets overlooked is the connection between a large, impersonal, transaction based economic allocation and decision making system and the propensity to do things that harm others, quite possibly to a greater extent than a few are advantaged, all in the name of economic progress. &nbsp;It is much more difficult to pull that off in a system in which people have ongoing and direct relationships with the people who are exchanging or collaborating in the development and use of goods and services. &nbsp;It is also more difficult to go crazy with planet altering economic activity when you do more of your producing and consuming on such an intimate level with the number of human beings that you are able to know and appreciate to some extent. &nbsp;Just something to think about.<p>
By the way, there was an interesting conversation that turned into an exploration of the concept of resilience <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/6/19/12229/8298" rel="nofollow">about a month ago.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:03:04 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/baskets-eggs-and-the-precariousness-of-homo-economicus/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>To follow-up on Colin's point...<p>...I think we can begin to talk about things like economic democracy, that is, a system in which firms are employee-owned and operated, a concept which has become law in Germany through a system called codetermination, and is brought to perhaps its best form in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation" rel="nofollow">Mondragon system of coops in the Basque region of Spain -- perhaps partly because the Basque may have been there since before the hierarchical/patriarchical socieities spawned by agricultural peoples. &nbsp;Seymour Melman wrote a huge and somewhat thick book called <a href="http://www.seymourmelman.com" rel="nofollow">"After capitalism" based on this concept.<p>
In addition, I think we should be talking about the public/private apportioning of the ownership and control of the four main aspects of the physical infrastructure -- transportation, energy, water, and communications. &nbsp;Maybe having energy and transportation in private hands -- utilities and cars -- is not sustainable in the long-term, and local governments need to own energy-generating facilities, and mass transit will have to replace most cars. &nbsp;But obviously such a move will be a multi-decade type movement.</p></a></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>To follow-up on Colin's point...<p>...I think we can begin to talk about things like economic democracy, that is, a system in which firms are employee-owned and operated, a concept which has become law in Germany through a system called codetermination, and is brought to perhaps its best form in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation" rel="nofollow">Mondragon system of coops in the Basque region of Spain -- perhaps partly because the Basque may have been there since before the hierarchical/patriarchical socieities spawned by agricultural peoples. &nbsp;Seymour Melman wrote a huge and somewhat thick book called <a href="http://www.seymourmelman.com" rel="nofollow">"After capitalism" based on this concept.<p>
In addition, I think we should be talking about the public/private apportioning of the ownership and control of the four main aspects of the physical infrastructure -- transportation, energy, water, and communications. &nbsp;Maybe having energy and transportation in private hands -- utilities and cars -- is not sustainable in the long-term, and local governments need to own energy-generating facilities, and mass transit will have to replace most cars. &nbsp;But obviously such a move will be a multi-decade type movement.</p></a></a></p></strong></p>
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