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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for &#8216;Antarctic ice is growing&#8217;&#8212;Well, probably not, but even if it were, we are not off the hook]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Zarkov</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 07:51:47 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Confused data</strong></p><p>As I have repeatedly stated,<br>
Greenhouse (Global) Warming is not well supported. </p><p>
Actually a more accurate term is "global cooling" &nbsp;due to global drought.</p><p>
Yes it appears to be getting warmer... but if you remove clouds it appears to get warmer, but that is not a real warming. &nbsp;Because the air is getting dryer, it is cooler than it would otherwise be.</p><p>
Confusion throughout the literature, and many mouths speaking total crap.</p><p>
Well when you really understand what is happening, then maybe something can be done.</p><p>
Until then the problem is progressing on as it should, with no one standing in its way.</p><p>
We are truly fortunate that climatic changes are highly buffered, and change, even though it is accelerating at a great pace, is nevertheless a slow process for human beings. &nbsp;Insidiously slow.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Confused data</strong></p><p>As I have repeatedly stated,<br>
Greenhouse (Global) Warming is not well supported. </p><p>
Actually a more accurate term is "global cooling" &nbsp;due to global drought.</p><p>
Yes it appears to be getting warmer... but if you remove clouds it appears to get warmer, but that is not a real warming. &nbsp;Because the air is getting dryer, it is cooler than it would otherwise be.</p><p>
Confusion throughout the literature, and many mouths speaking total crap.</p><p>
Well when you really understand what is happening, then maybe something can be done.</p><p>
Until then the problem is progressing on as it should, with no one standing in its way.</p><p>
We are truly fortunate that climatic changes are highly buffered, and change, even though it is accelerating at a great pace, is nevertheless a slow process for human beings. &nbsp;Insidiously slow.</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by wiscidea</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:05:50 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>So...</strong></p><p>... what you are saying is that it is not the heat it is the humidity?</p><p>
Let me get this straight... A global drought is causing cooling? Which is recorded as globing warming because drier air contains fewer clouds, therefore letting more sunlight in and warming the air? So what we perceive as warm temperatures are actually cooler. And as the air further cools and loses moisture, it will get warmer? But this is because it is getting cooler.</p><p>
I see... well, no. I don't see.</p><p>
I'm afraid I have to accept the consensus of the scientific community, who might have a better handle on climatology, physics, and science in general.</p>
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				<p><strong>So...</strong></p><p>... what you are saying is that it is not the heat it is the humidity?</p><p>
Let me get this straight... A global drought is causing cooling? Which is recorded as globing warming because drier air contains fewer clouds, therefore letting more sunlight in and warming the air? So what we perceive as warm temperatures are actually cooler. And as the air further cools and loses moisture, it will get warmer? But this is because it is getting cooler.</p><p>
I see... well, no. I don't see.</p><p>
I'm afraid I have to accept the consensus of the scientific community, who might have a better handle on climatology, physics, and science in general.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Zarkov</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 11:50:43 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Deserts</strong></p><p>&gt;&gt; And as the air further cools and loses moisture, it will get warmer? But this is because it is getting cooler. &gt;&gt;</p><p>
LOL, well you almost closed the logic loop, but not quite.</p><p>
Lets look at deserts, what we get is a blistering day temperature... no clouds, full clear sky sun.<br>
BUT we also get freezing nights..... clear skies, the heat loss is dramatic.</p><p>
The air becomes dry and does not heat up as much as it would if there was a high humidity AND also a clear sky.</p><p>
So if that region of land was not a desert, then with clouds, both maximum(down) and minimum(up) air temperatures would be moderated.</p><p>
Now because there are no clouds, the desert land has actually warmed, but the air is less hot that it would be if...... both land and air are just gaining a no weather temperature, <br>
just as at night a similar logical situation arises.</p><p>
But to us the desert is both much warmer and colder.</p><p>
The ground may approach 90 or more degrees centigrade, the air 50C during the day, at night there could be frost formed from the little water in the air.</p><p>
You may now appreciate, when you don't know what is happening, the initial climatic picture can be very confusing.</p><p>
Remove water vapour and we travel towards a Moon climate. &nbsp;We may only know this once we arrive. &nbsp;This is not good enough.</br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Deserts</strong></p><p>&gt;&gt; And as the air further cools and loses moisture, it will get warmer? But this is because it is getting cooler. &gt;&gt;</p><p>
LOL, well you almost closed the logic loop, but not quite.</p><p>
Lets look at deserts, what we get is a blistering day temperature... no clouds, full clear sky sun.<br>
BUT we also get freezing nights..... clear skies, the heat loss is dramatic.</p><p>
The air becomes dry and does not heat up as much as it would if there was a high humidity AND also a clear sky.</p><p>
So if that region of land was not a desert, then with clouds, both maximum(down) and minimum(up) air temperatures would be moderated.</p><p>
Now because there are no clouds, the desert land has actually warmed, but the air is less hot that it would be if...... both land and air are just gaining a no weather temperature, <br>
just as at night a similar logical situation arises.</p><p>
But to us the desert is both much warmer and colder.</p><p>
The ground may approach 90 or more degrees centigrade, the air 50C during the day, at night there could be frost formed from the little water in the air.</p><p>
You may now appreciate, when you don't know what is happening, the initial climatic picture can be very confusing.</p><p>
Remove water vapour and we travel towards a Moon climate. &nbsp;We may only know this once we arrive. &nbsp;This is not good enough.</br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 04:58:10 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>You can't keep doing this</strong></p><p><br>
Look, this the second time you've hedged. &nbsp;You can't say "I absolutely know why" and set out to disparage everyone else with name calling, and then write this Be All and End All guide and then suddenly punt at the end and say "well, this isn't well understood".</p><p>
All we are saying is that Yes, It's Hotter than in the past 200 years. &nbsp;Agreed. &nbsp; Yes, we should not "pollute". &nbsp; Agreed. &nbsp;But is CO2 the main driver of global warming? &nbsp;We need to know more!</p><p>
And the reason is this: &nbsp;We may overlook the forest for the trees. &nbsp;All the time we are buying hybrid cars to reduce CO2, we may not be applying attention to some more powerful cause of Global Heating, and hence be sideswiped.

<p>The Texeme Construct offers international text memetics construction and textcasting services.</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>You can't keep doing this</strong></p><p><br>
Look, this the second time you've hedged. &nbsp;You can't say "I absolutely know why" and set out to disparage everyone else with name calling, and then write this Be All and End All guide and then suddenly punt at the end and say "well, this isn't well understood".</p><p>
All we are saying is that Yes, It's Hotter than in the past 200 years. &nbsp;Agreed. &nbsp; Yes, we should not "pollute". &nbsp; Agreed. &nbsp;But is CO2 the main driver of global warming? &nbsp;We need to know more!</p><p>
And the reason is this: &nbsp;We may overlook the forest for the trees. &nbsp;All the time we are buying hybrid cars to reduce CO2, we may not be applying attention to some more powerful cause of Global Heating, and hence be sideswiped.

<p>The Texeme Construct offers international text memetics construction and textcasting services.</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by hank</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:55:08 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>There's a chicken and egg argument here</strong></p><p>When the comment section to the 'Antarctic' thread is just used by s(k)eptics to repost other stock talking points, ignoring the fact that those have been addressed in other threads, this whole collection gets recursive really fast.</p>
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				<p><strong>There's a chicken and egg argument here</strong></p><p>When the comment section to the 'Antarctic' thread is just used by s(k)eptics to repost other stock talking points, ignoring the fact that those have been addressed in other threads, this whole collection gets recursive really fast.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by TheKidSalami</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 23:14:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Having your ice and eating it</strong></p><p>"Second, ice-sheet thickening is not inconsistent with warming! Warmer climates tend toward more precipitation. The Antarctic is one of the most extreme deserts on the planet. As it warms, we would expect it to receive more snow. But even a whopping warming of 20 degrees -- say, from -50 degrees C to -30 degrees C -- would still leave it below freezing, so the snow wouldn't melt. Thus, an increase in ice mass. "</p><p>
So, glaciers melt, this is evidence for (or at least not against) global warming. Antarctica gets bigger - this is also evidence for global warming. What could happen that ISN'T evidence for global warming? Any chance of any predictive hypotheses that could be verified in the future?</p>
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				<p><strong>Having your ice and eating it</strong></p><p>"Second, ice-sheet thickening is not inconsistent with warming! Warmer climates tend toward more precipitation. The Antarctic is one of the most extreme deserts on the planet. As it warms, we would expect it to receive more snow. But even a whopping warming of 20 degrees -- say, from -50 degrees C to -30 degrees C -- would still leave it below freezing, so the snow wouldn't melt. Thus, an increase in ice mass. "</p><p>
So, glaciers melt, this is evidence for (or at least not against) global warming. Antarctica gets bigger - this is also evidence for global warming. What could happen that ISN'T evidence for global warming? Any chance of any predictive hypotheses that could be verified in the future?</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Ron Lambert</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:11:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Antrctic Ice is Growing<p>Is it really all that unclear whether Antarctic ice is increasing or decreasing? Please note the following:<p>
"And down south last September, NASA satellites showed the Antarctic Ice Field to be the largest it has ever been in the 30 years it has been observed by satellite (based on an analysis of 347 million radar altimeter measurements made by the European Space Agency's ERS-1 and ERS-2 satellites)."<p>
This is from an anti global warming site:<br>
<a href="http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html</a></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Antrctic Ice is Growing<p>Is it really all that unclear whether Antarctic ice is increasing or decreasing? Please note the following:<p>
"And down south last September, NASA satellites showed the Antarctic Ice Field to be the largest it has ever been in the 30 years it has been observed by satellite (based on an analysis of 347 million radar altimeter measurements made by the European Space Agency's ERS-1 and ERS-2 satellites)."<p>
This is from an anti global warming site:<br>
<a href="http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html</a></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by naught101</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:54:38 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/antarctic-ice-is-growing/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>TheKidSalami<p>No, no-one has ever said that increasing ice mass in the Antarctic is evidence for global warming. They have just said that it is not inconsistent with global warming.<p>
That is, increasing ice mass in one area of the globe proves and disproves nothing about the global climate, especially while evidence from elsewhere (ie. everywhere with ice) means that the general trend of global ice levels are downwards.<p>
You try to point out a logical fallacy. You fail.

<p>check out <a href="http://www.envirowiki.info" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"> <a href="http://www.envirowiki.info" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.envirowiki.info, the knowledge database for environmentalists and activists.</a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>TheKidSalami<p>No, no-one has ever said that increasing ice mass in the Antarctic is evidence for global warming. They have just said that it is not inconsistent with global warming.<p>
That is, increasing ice mass in one area of the globe proves and disproves nothing about the global climate, especially while evidence from elsewhere (ie. everywhere with ice) means that the general trend of global ice levels are downwards.<p>
You try to point out a logical fallacy. You fail.

<p>check out <a href="http://www.envirowiki.info" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"> <a href="http://www.envirowiki.info" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.envirowiki.info, the knowledge database for environmentalists and activists.</a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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