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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Prius &#8216;proven&#8217; to get worse gas mileage than BMW 520d]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:39:26 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>A cheap cheat at best.<p>Most people drive the most miles in mixed urban/suburban driving averageing speeds in the mid-30's for stop and go commuting. A diesel in those conditions just sits and burns fuel while the Prius reverts to it's battery for power.<p>
I suppose it doesn't matter that with off the shelf mods the Prius can easily get over 100 mpg. I wonder if that would ever be possible in that BMW? <p>
Of course they probably didn't take into account the higher carbon content and fuel value of diesel fuel or the fact that it takes more oil to make a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline. Oh, look, the Prius official CO2 rating is 104gm/km vs. the BMW's 136 gm/km. <p>
Also that 75 MPH into a headwind speed could have been up to 105 MPH windspeed that would just eat the Prius engines ability to stay within it's efficiency envelope. <p>
Finally, just try and get two, 250 lb guys into the back of that BMW comfortably; it won't happen. Meanwhile Prii are increasingly used as taxis at a fantastic fuel and emisssions savings in cities where it really counts. Riding in the back seat of a Prius is comfortable.<p>
Given the source and the lack of attention to detail I would say that this was a cheap and intentional cheat by a car writer in order to gain access to a "special favor." 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>A cheap cheat at best.<p>Most people drive the most miles in mixed urban/suburban driving averageing speeds in the mid-30's for stop and go commuting. A diesel in those conditions just sits and burns fuel while the Prius reverts to it's battery for power.<p>
I suppose it doesn't matter that with off the shelf mods the Prius can easily get over 100 mpg. I wonder if that would ever be possible in that BMW? <p>
Of course they probably didn't take into account the higher carbon content and fuel value of diesel fuel or the fact that it takes more oil to make a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline. Oh, look, the Prius official CO2 rating is 104gm/km vs. the BMW's 136 gm/km. <p>
Also that 75 MPH into a headwind speed could have been up to 105 MPH windspeed that would just eat the Prius engines ability to stay within it's efficiency envelope. <p>
Finally, just try and get two, 250 lb guys into the back of that BMW comfortably; it won't happen. Meanwhile Prii are increasingly used as taxis at a fantastic fuel and emisssions savings in cities where it really counts. Riding in the back seat of a Prius is comfortable.<p>
Given the source and the lack of attention to detail I would say that this was a cheap and intentional cheat by a car writer in order to gain access to a "special favor." 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:26:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>I can almost see how it evolved.<p>Two guys drinking at a pub dream up a way to get an all expenses paid road trip, and three days off work. The next day they approach their editor with the idea. He buys it and off they go. Road trip!<p>
They probably had to script it with hangovers. That scene with Jason running out of gas was funny, but for the wrong reasons.<p>
It is entirely possible that the Beemer got better mileage, and we all know that if you stick an injected, turbo charged diesel (with advanced air pollution controls like soot traps and NOx neutralizers) in a hybrid you are going to get incredible mileage. The question is, how many people will want to pay $30,000 to get 60 mpg? To be honest, I have a feeling a lot of people would go for it. The arms race would escalate. <p>
Turbo chargers are complex machines. High pressure injectors are prone to problems. Air pollution controls are unreliable. Add that kind of complexity to a hybrid drive train and you have created twice as many failure modes. <p>
Picture people buying those cars to eclipse the Pious snobs only to be eclipsed by the Pious snobs in plug-ins, who are in turn eclipsed by God knows what--bubbles powered by dark matter.<p>
Transportation has to rapidly evolve past the cars of today, including the Prius.<p>
<a href="http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/06/autos/volkswagen_diesel_hybrid/index.htm?eref=rss_topstories" rel="nofollow">http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/06/autos/volkswagen_diesel_h ...<br>


<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>I can almost see how it evolved.<p>Two guys drinking at a pub dream up a way to get an all expenses paid road trip, and three days off work. The next day they approach their editor with the idea. He buys it and off they go. Road trip!<p>
They probably had to script it with hangovers. That scene with Jason running out of gas was funny, but for the wrong reasons.<p>
It is entirely possible that the Beemer got better mileage, and we all know that if you stick an injected, turbo charged diesel (with advanced air pollution controls like soot traps and NOx neutralizers) in a hybrid you are going to get incredible mileage. The question is, how many people will want to pay $30,000 to get 60 mpg? To be honest, I have a feeling a lot of people would go for it. The arms race would escalate. <p>
Turbo chargers are complex machines. High pressure injectors are prone to problems. Air pollution controls are unreliable. Add that kind of complexity to a hybrid drive train and you have created twice as many failure modes. <p>
Picture people buying those cars to eclipse the Pious snobs only to be eclipsed by the Pious snobs in plug-ins, who are in turn eclipsed by God knows what--bubbles powered by dark matter.<p>
Transportation has to rapidly evolve past the cars of today, including the Prius.<p>
<a href="http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/06/autos/volkswagen_diesel_hybrid/index.htm?eref=rss_topstories" rel="nofollow">http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/06/autos/volkswagen_diesel_h ...<br>


<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by wgartist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:12:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Honda Civic</strong></p><p>Meanwhile, on my latest road trip with a 2005 Civic I got 43 mpg. It consistently gets 37 or 38 in mixed driving. The solution to the car syndrome is smaller, lighter, slower and less frequent and more intelligent driving.</p>
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				<p><strong>Honda Civic</strong></p><p>Meanwhile, on my latest road trip with a 2005 Civic I got 43 mpg. It consistently gets 37 or 38 in mixed driving. The solution to the car syndrome is smaller, lighter, slower and less frequent and more intelligent driving.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by enviroperk</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:38:00 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Excuse me...</strong></p><p>Excuse me, did you say ROAD TRIP? </p><p>
The real problem is not gas mileage, or Prius vs BMW, or bad journalists. The problem is people that drive for recreation. Yes, that would be people that take ROAD TRIPS. My favorite poser-enviromentalist is the one that drives 100 miles to a place to Bike-- Green bumper stickers, Prius, and all. The next best is one that FLIES to Aspen for an environmental conference.</p><p>
Be part of the solution, don't drive for recreation.<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Excuse me...</strong></p><p>Excuse me, did you say ROAD TRIP? </p><p>
The real problem is not gas mileage, or Prius vs BMW, or bad journalists. The problem is people that drive for recreation. Yes, that would be people that take ROAD TRIPS. My favorite poser-enviromentalist is the one that drives 100 miles to a place to Bike-- Green bumper stickers, Prius, and all. The next best is one that FLIES to Aspen for an environmental conference.</p><p>
Be part of the solution, don't drive for recreation.<br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by wgartist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:44:38 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>well...</strong></p><p>Actually it was a trip that needed to be done. And it was on the road. Hence road trip. But actually, look at the statistics. It's really ONLY recreational driving that we should be doing. It's the business stuff that's got us into trouble.<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>well...</strong></p><p>Actually it was a trip that needed to be done. And it was on the road. Hence road trip. But actually, look at the statistics. It's really ONLY recreational driving that we should be doing. It's the business stuff that's got us into trouble.<br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by racc</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 04:59:22 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Counting the Deck Chairs o the Titanic</strong></p><p>Neither the Prius or the the BMW is a sustainable form of transportation. By the time all the resources and energy required to build and maintain the vehicles, roads, parking and bridges are accounted for, I suspect any small incremental improvements in gas milage are not that significant. Improved milage also makes driving cheaper and thus encourages people to drive further.</p><p>
Also note that hybrids are very efficient at stop and go driving but often are no better or even worse than non-hybrids at highway speeds. </p><p>
Hybrids are the light cigarettes of the auto industry designed to convince people that driving has a future so we continue to buy cars and build highways thus delaying the needed transformation of our transportation system and our communities.</p><p>
Much better to not drive at all. Live close to work, ride a bike, walk, take transit.</p>
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				<p><strong>Counting the Deck Chairs o the Titanic</strong></p><p>Neither the Prius or the the BMW is a sustainable form of transportation. By the time all the resources and energy required to build and maintain the vehicles, roads, parking and bridges are accounted for, I suspect any small incremental improvements in gas milage are not that significant. Improved milage also makes driving cheaper and thus encourages people to drive further.</p><p>
Also note that hybrids are very efficient at stop and go driving but often are no better or even worse than non-hybrids at highway speeds. </p><p>
Hybrids are the light cigarettes of the auto industry designed to convince people that driving has a future so we continue to buy cars and build highways thus delaying the needed transformation of our transportation system and our communities.</p><p>
Much better to not drive at all. Live close to work, ride a bike, walk, take transit.</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Nucbuddy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 16:55:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>n<p>Racc:<p>
<a href="http://news.google.com/news?q=telecommuting" rel="nofollow">http://news.google.com/news?q=telecommuting</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>n<p>Racc:<p>
<a href="http://news.google.com/news?q=telecommuting" rel="nofollow">http://news.google.com/news?q=telecommuting</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:54:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Nucbuddy is right<p>We should look for ways to increase telecomuting. I would not be surprised to see that with no expense, we could save more energy than all the biofuel produced. Somebody do a spreadsheet.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Nucbuddy is right<p>We should look for ways to increase telecomuting. I would not be surprised to see that with no expense, we could save more energy than all the biofuel produced. Somebody do a spreadsheet.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by gmcjetpilot</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:39:29 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/another-urban-legend-is-spawned/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Why do Diesel guys bash the Prius? eco-snobbery</strong></p><p>"This need of diesel enthusiasts to bash the Prius is baffling."</p><p>
Any bashing is the Prius communities fault for BRAGGING how great it is. When it fell well short of the hype, people jumped in with joy &amp; happily.</p><p>
It is because Prius folks bash diesel and talk with emotion and hand waving with out giving credit to the Diesel, especially new diesel engines and fuels. In fact most just pointing to this fact offends Prius owners, because it hurts their ego and status. To think they don't have the best or may be not that smart is too much to deal with in Eco-snob land.</p><p>
Fact is the Prius nor Diesel is God's Gift to the world. The Prius is over hyped and EPA MPG was overly optimistic. There is no major advantage on the open highway. Around town (small village) slow stop and go, great. Like wise the criticism that diesels are noisy, dirty, shaky, sooty may have been true but people need to look again. </p><p>
The problem is the availability of good small diesel cars and wagons. You have to go to a 7 liter diesel truck to get an american made vehicle. Benz has diesel but large luxury cars that get good milage (like a Honda civic) but not the hyper +40 and 50 mpg of the TDI VW. VW has a tainted product reputation but they are the first with cutting edge regenerative NOx traps and common rail piezoelectric injectors. </p><p>
&gt;&gt;"A small four-cylinder engine (like the Prius)."<br>
(A lot of cars have a small four cylinder. The difference is a small TDI VW has WAY more torque and pulling power which is great on hills and mountain passes. There is no debate, for the open highway the newer Diesels made in the last 8 years with the low sulfur fuel last two years is great. GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE.)</p><p>
&gt;&gt;"Low aerodynamic drag (like the Prius)."<br>
The space ship look is great but the coefficient of friction does not come into it at 30 mph. The VW Jetta has a high trunk and is very aerodynamic (I know I'm an engineer). The Prius has no rear window and people HATE that. You over hype the aero shape.)</p><p>
&gt;&gt;"Low rolling resistance (like the Prius)."<br>
(Lower than WHAT?)</p><p>
&gt;&gt;"A fuel consumption computer on the dash (like the Prius)."<br>
(VW Jetta has that and so does my 1988 Acura Lenee.)</p><p>
&gt;&gt;"Regenerative braking for the battery (like the Prius)." <br>
(Not much use on the highway. Battery life being what it is, you are looking for a $3k-$5k battery replacement. Where do those old batteries go?)</p><p>
The Prius is great, but the people that bought it at first and even now can't stop and SHUT up how great they are that they bought a PRIUS. Ever watch SOUTH PARK. &nbsp;South Park did an episode about the cloud of smug emanating from hybrid ... `eco-snobbery'. </p><p>
Fact is the new clean diesels will have low NOx and particulates. With Waste Veg Oil (WVO) use or Bio-diesel there is even more to recommend it. Gas engines don't have any DIY fuels, veg oil based or not. All they have is ethanol which is a Boondoggle, making farmers rich and driving world food prices up. Ethanol (at least corn based on growing it specifically for fuel) does not work. Diesel will run on waste Veg OIL ...... Brilliant.</p><p>
When you can drive thousands of miles on $40 of diesel by supplementing it with some WVO you clean yourself, heat and inject direct into the engine with lower emissions, the Diesel guys are the one's who should be snobs. Now hauling dirty veg oil around and cleaning it is NOT for everyone or even many. Also not all diesels run on it with out potential mechanical and maintenance problems, especially if the oil is not HOT and clean of good quality. So an engine rebuild would eliminate any savings.</p><p>
Prius is a niche car but does not offer the solution as you admit. If you drive long distance over open highways look at the new turbo diesels with the clean after-treatment exhaust.</p><p>
Enjoy your Prius but shut up about it, we know it gets great gas milage, great so do diesels, new quiet, clean, efficent diesels.</br></br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Why do Diesel guys bash the Prius? eco-snobbery</strong></p><p>"This need of diesel enthusiasts to bash the Prius is baffling."</p><p>
Any bashing is the Prius communities fault for BRAGGING how great it is. When it fell well short of the hype, people jumped in with joy &amp; happily.</p><p>
It is because Prius folks bash diesel and talk with emotion and hand waving with out giving credit to the Diesel, especially new diesel engines and fuels. In fact most just pointing to this fact offends Prius owners, because it hurts their ego and status. To think they don't have the best or may be not that smart is too much to deal with in Eco-snob land.</p><p>
Fact is the Prius nor Diesel is God's Gift to the world. The Prius is over hyped and EPA MPG was overly optimistic. There is no major advantage on the open highway. Around town (small village) slow stop and go, great. Like wise the criticism that diesels are noisy, dirty, shaky, sooty may have been true but people need to look again. </p><p>
The problem is the availability of good small diesel cars and wagons. You have to go to a 7 liter diesel truck to get an american made vehicle. Benz has diesel but large luxury cars that get good milage (like a Honda civic) but not the hyper +40 and 50 mpg of the TDI VW. VW has a tainted product reputation but they are the first with cutting edge regenerative NOx traps and common rail piezoelectric injectors. </p><p>
&gt;&gt;"A small four-cylinder engine (like the Prius)."<br>
(A lot of cars have a small four cylinder. The difference is a small TDI VW has WAY more torque and pulling power which is great on hills and mountain passes. There is no debate, for the open highway the newer Diesels made in the last 8 years with the low sulfur fuel last two years is great. GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE.)</p><p>
&gt;&gt;"Low aerodynamic drag (like the Prius)."<br>
The space ship look is great but the coefficient of friction does not come into it at 30 mph. The VW Jetta has a high trunk and is very aerodynamic (I know I'm an engineer). The Prius has no rear window and people HATE that. You over hype the aero shape.)</p><p>
&gt;&gt;"Low rolling resistance (like the Prius)."<br>
(Lower than WHAT?)</p><p>
&gt;&gt;"A fuel consumption computer on the dash (like the Prius)."<br>
(VW Jetta has that and so does my 1988 Acura Lenee.)</p><p>
&gt;&gt;"Regenerative braking for the battery (like the Prius)." <br>
(Not much use on the highway. Battery life being what it is, you are looking for a $3k-$5k battery replacement. Where do those old batteries go?)</p><p>
The Prius is great, but the people that bought it at first and even now can't stop and SHUT up how great they are that they bought a PRIUS. Ever watch SOUTH PARK. &nbsp;South Park did an episode about the cloud of smug emanating from hybrid ... `eco-snobbery'. </p><p>
Fact is the new clean diesels will have low NOx and particulates. With Waste Veg Oil (WVO) use or Bio-diesel there is even more to recommend it. Gas engines don't have any DIY fuels, veg oil based or not. All they have is ethanol which is a Boondoggle, making farmers rich and driving world food prices up. Ethanol (at least corn based on growing it specifically for fuel) does not work. Diesel will run on waste Veg OIL ...... Brilliant.</p><p>
When you can drive thousands of miles on $40 of diesel by supplementing it with some WVO you clean yourself, heat and inject direct into the engine with lower emissions, the Diesel guys are the one's who should be snobs. Now hauling dirty veg oil around and cleaning it is NOT for everyone or even many. Also not all diesels run on it with out potential mechanical and maintenance problems, especially if the oil is not HOT and clean of good quality. So an engine rebuild would eliminate any savings.</p><p>
Prius is a niche car but does not offer the solution as you admit. If you drive long distance over open highways look at the new turbo diesels with the clean after-treatment exhaust.</p><p>
Enjoy your Prius but shut up about it, we know it gets great gas milage, great so do diesels, new quiet, clean, efficent diesels.</br></br></br></br></br></p>
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