<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Because small fixes make the biggest difference]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Pangolin http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:13:36 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/1 And then a miracle occurs.....

The nasty part about bailing out Detroit is that Toyota, Honda and Nissan are also suffering from sales drops despite the fact that their vehicle fleets get significantly better mileage. Even with these improved mileage vehicles Toyota has suffered a drop in sales volume that would cripple any US automaker. For any domestic vehicle a more efficient import can be found already in production and they can't sell all of those cars.

Where are these improved mileage vehicles supposed to come from?  They aren't on the drawing boards of engineers and there certainly aren't any in pre-production testing. They don't exist. We could try slapping electric motors, batteries and motor-generators into existing vehicle lines but their isn't enough motor or battery production in the world to supply them.

The US auto industry as a free-market entity is dead. The only way to save it is to idle assembly lines while they retool to produce non-existent, plug-in hybrid vehicle designs all the while paying workers to do nothing. Then it has to be re-started and car buyers will need guarantees of vehicle performance that bankrupt companies cannot honestly provide. All of this to sell to consumers who cannot afford to purchase cars due to the overall economic failure.

Can we stop digging this giant hole into which we are throwing resources? Couldn't we build something that create resources instead with that money and manpower? Only a miracle will get us out of this mess.

Put the Carbon Back

]]> And then a miracle occurs.....

The nasty part about bailing out Detroit is that Toyota, Honda and Nissan are also suffering from sales drops despite the fact that their vehicle fleets get significantly better mileage. Even with these improved mileage vehicles Toyota has suffered a drop in sales volume that would cripple any US automaker. For any domestic vehicle a more efficient import can be found already in production and they can't sell all of those cars.

Where are these improved mileage vehicles supposed to come from?  They aren't on the drawing boards of engineers and there certainly aren't any in pre-production testing. They don't exist. We could try slapping electric motors, batteries and motor-generators into existing vehicle lines but their isn't enough motor or battery production in the world to supply them.

The US auto industry as a free-market entity is dead. The only way to save it is to idle assembly lines while they retool to produce non-existent, plug-in hybrid vehicle designs all the while paying workers to do nothing. Then it has to be re-started and car buyers will need guarantees of vehicle performance that bankrupt companies cannot honestly provide. All of this to sell to consumers who cannot afford to purchase cars due to the overall economic failure.

Can we stop digging this giant hole into which we are throwing resources? Couldn't we build something that create resources instead with that money and manpower? Only a miracle will get us out of this mess.

Put the Carbon Back

]]> Comment #2 by Tasermons Partner http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:26:11 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/2 "Specific changes"?...

Let's take a look at some specific changes to the GM fleet:

Uh-huh...and has GM announced any plans to make to changes?

And have those "changes" been put into any part of the bailout measure?

And even so, what sort of "punishment" or guarantee do we have that after we give GM the money, they won't just try to find a way around these "changes"?

]]> "Specific changes"?...

Let's take a look at some specific changes to the GM fleet:

Uh-huh...and has GM announced any plans to make to changes?

And have those "changes" been put into any part of the bailout measure?

And even so, what sort of "punishment" or guarantee do we have that after we give GM the money, they won't just try to find a way around these "changes"?

]]> Comment #3 by Billhook http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:45:11 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/3 Tweakers will save the climate ?

To suppose that tweaking the mileage of the worst US vehicles will make them either attractive, or affordable, or appropriate in an oil-constrained and carbon-constrained society, seems distinctly naive.

There seems little awareness in the US of the scale of the brazen fraud Detroit has run with Hueston -
By contrast with US vehicle design priorities, the French Citroen company developed a 50mpg passenger vehicle engine in '39, buried it until '45, and then put it and its offshhoots on the roads until the '80s.
I drove one myself (a 600cc version) until 2002.

The proposed "Tweaking" would in practice just maintain that fraud.

]]> Tweakers will save the climate ?

To suppose that tweaking the mileage of the worst US vehicles will make them either attractive, or affordable, or appropriate in an oil-constrained and carbon-constrained society, seems distinctly naive.

There seems little awareness in the US of the scale of the brazen fraud Detroit has run with Hueston -
By contrast with US vehicle design priorities, the French Citroen company developed a 50mpg passenger vehicle engine in '39, buried it until '45, and then put it and its offshhoots on the roads until the '80s.
I drove one myself (a 600cc version) until 2002.

The proposed "Tweaking" would in practice just maintain that fraud.

]]> Comment #4 by PacificGatePost http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:30:06 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/4 DETROIT BAILOUT

Forget Chapter 11, however, WHAT you implement and HOW you do it is critical to the outcome.

Here is the type of plan Congress should consider >

http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/11/solution-for- ...

Trying something outside the box like this, is the only way to save the U.S. Auto Industry.

... it deserves saving.

]]> DETROIT BAILOUT

Forget Chapter 11, however, WHAT you implement and HOW you do it is critical to the outcome.

Here is the type of plan Congress should consider >

http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/11/solution-for- ...

Trying something outside the box like this, is the only way to save the U.S. Auto Industry.

... it deserves saving.

]]> Comment #5 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Sun, 16 Nov 2008 02:28:17 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/5 Some quibbles

http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/photo/ayellowhummer.JPG

Comparing mpg improvements to a Prius to mpg improvements in Hummers may make for some extreme and shocking comparisons but they are also nonsensical. There is no need to improve the Prius mileage. There is a need to improve the fleet mileage and the more you can improve it, the better.

They are already getting rid of the Hummer line. They need to expand this strategy.

Going from 14 to 20 is a 43 percent increase in mileage.

Going from 13 to 23 is a 69 percent increase in mileage.

To put this into perspective, Friedman's hybrid Lexus RX 400 H cost $6,000 more than the non-hybrid version and gets 28 percent better mileage. From an engineering perspective, it isn't possible to get a 43 or 69 percent improvement in mileage for a Denali or a Trailblazer by converting them to hybrids.

Unlike airline manufacturers, car makers constantly retool to come up with new models every year. Retooling isn't a showstopper.

The problem is with consumer choice. If piercings and tattoos can be made cool, high mileage cars can. It is kind of hard to convince consumers of that if there are only two or three cars that bust 40 mpg to pick from, isn't' it? Billboards and ads to make people want to own the cars the cool kids own are of no value if there are no high mileage cars to advertise.

If America is to cut oil use in half, is must double its average gas mileage. You can't do that by tweaking existing gas hogs. You have to go a new direction and the laws of physics say that you must have smaller cars. To get consumers to prefer them, you just have to convince them that big cars are not cool, and small ones are. It's all in our heads. It's all about status seeking

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world


]]> Some quibbles

http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/photo/ayellowhummer.JPG

Comparing mpg improvements to a Prius to mpg improvements in Hummers may make for some extreme and shocking comparisons but they are also nonsensical. There is no need to improve the Prius mileage. There is a need to improve the fleet mileage and the more you can improve it, the better.

They are already getting rid of the Hummer line. They need to expand this strategy.

Going from 14 to 20 is a 43 percent increase in mileage.

Going from 13 to 23 is a 69 percent increase in mileage.

To put this into perspective, Friedman's hybrid Lexus RX 400 H cost $6,000 more than the non-hybrid version and gets 28 percent better mileage. From an engineering perspective, it isn't possible to get a 43 or 69 percent improvement in mileage for a Denali or a Trailblazer by converting them to hybrids.

Unlike airline manufacturers, car makers constantly retool to come up with new models every year. Retooling isn't a showstopper.

The problem is with consumer choice. If piercings and tattoos can be made cool, high mileage cars can. It is kind of hard to convince consumers of that if there are only two or three cars that bust 40 mpg to pick from, isn't' it? Billboards and ads to make people want to own the cars the cool kids own are of no value if there are no high mileage cars to advertise.

If America is to cut oil use in half, is must double its average gas mileage. You can't do that by tweaking existing gas hogs. You have to go a new direction and the laws of physics say that you must have smaller cars. To get consumers to prefer them, you just have to convince them that big cars are not cool, and small ones are. It's all in our heads. It's all about status seeking

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world


]]> Comment #6 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Sun, 16 Nov 2008 05:01:49 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/6 This might work

Let oil companies pay to bail out auto companies.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/11/15 ...

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> This might work

Let oil companies pay to bail out auto companies.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/11/15 ...

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Comment #7 by nycowboy http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:03:13 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/7 Other Reasons to Save Domestic Auto Manufacturers

American made cars are made with environmental standards. Foreign made cars are often made significantly in the third world, even if they are assembled in America to avoid tariffs. That means that factories don't have to necessarily have any kind of emissions control or take pollution abatement.

American car companies, and the UAW pay their workers well and take care of them. Well paid workers have more money to contribute to the local economy, more money to spend on local/sustainable pursuits, and more time for outdoor recreation. Marginal people making marginal pay for hard labor don't have the time or money for environmental pursuits.

]]> Other Reasons to Save Domestic Auto Manufacturers

American made cars are made with environmental standards. Foreign made cars are often made significantly in the third world, even if they are assembled in America to avoid tariffs. That means that factories don't have to necessarily have any kind of emissions control or take pollution abatement.

American car companies, and the UAW pay their workers well and take care of them. Well paid workers have more money to contribute to the local economy, more money to spend on local/sustainable pursuits, and more time for outdoor recreation. Marginal people making marginal pay for hard labor don't have the time or money for environmental pursuits.

]]> Comment #8 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Mon, 17 Nov 2008 05:10:15 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/8 Cap and Bail


Bailout?

Sure...but first cap executive pay.

$100,000 is max from CEO on down.

No perks until company is solvent and all loans are paid.


]]> Cap and Bail


Bailout?

Sure...but first cap executive pay.

$100,000 is max from CEO on down.

No perks until company is solvent and all loans are paid.


]]> Comment #9 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Mon, 17 Nov 2008 05:12:18 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/9 Equi-Knocking At Prius Door


The GM Equinox fuel cell powered SUV gets as good mileage (on hydrogen) as the Prius and it ways 2 and half times as much.

If GM were to focus solely on the Equinox and the Volt (fuel cell version) and to cap executive pay, then I might approve the bailout.


]]> Equi-Knocking At Prius Door


The GM Equinox fuel cell powered SUV gets as good mileage (on hydrogen) as the Prius and it ways 2 and half times as much.

If GM were to focus solely on the Equinox and the Volt (fuel cell version) and to cap executive pay, then I might approve the bailout.


]]> Comment #10 by jeffgreen11 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:54:44 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/10 This article is a farse

By 2050 the fleet average should be 60 mpg average. So we want to save gas for 15 to 18. Its just this sluggish dark crawl to working ourselves into the eventual reality of energy efficiency. I understand the logic of how much fuel it saves, but its so far from the reality of sustainability its laughable.

]]> This article is a farse

By 2050 the fleet average should be 60 mpg average. So we want to save gas for 15 to 18. Its just this sluggish dark crawl to working ourselves into the eventual reality of energy efficiency. I understand the logic of how much fuel it saves, but its so far from the reality of sustainability its laughable.

]]> Comment #11 by racc http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:52:33 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/11 This is Too Great an Opportunity

By letting GM fail, the power of the automobile industry would even fade further. This would help speed the transition to high-speed rail, transit and cycling. These are the real climate solution. Now is an excellent opportunity to create real change. Change by doing nothing and letting the auto industry fail.

http://www.everyoneforever.org/

]]> This is Too Great an Opportunity

By letting GM fail, the power of the automobile industry would even fade further. This would help speed the transition to high-speed rail, transit and cycling. These are the real climate solution. Now is an excellent opportunity to create real change. Change by doing nothing and letting the auto industry fail.

http://www.everyoneforever.org/

]]> Comment #12 by Andy Stevenson http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/ Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:50:11 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/a-defense-of-the-gm-bailout/12 A CAFE driven Bailout is the Only Real Alternative

Given the terrible state of the auto industry as a whole it is very hard to seriously consider any business as usual solutions coming out of the auto industry. Car sales have fallen from 17mln units in 2006 to a projected 13.3mln units this year making suppy driven solutions extremely challenging.

Given the number of jobs at stake there is some need to consider all of the options before letting the autos run out of gas and increasing CAFE standards in conjuction with re-tooling incentives can work to yield long term benefits for the US taxpayer and help keep the US auto flag flying well into the future.

For more on this please check out "We Can Invest in a CAFE driven Auto Bailout" http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/astevenson/we_can_inves ... ).

]]> A CAFE driven Bailout is the Only Real Alternative

Given the terrible state of the auto industry as a whole it is very hard to seriously consider any business as usual solutions coming out of the auto industry. Car sales have fallen from 17mln units in 2006 to a projected 13.3mln units this year making suppy driven solutions extremely challenging.

Given the number of jobs at stake there is some need to consider all of the options before letting the autos run out of gas and increasing CAFE standards in conjuction with re-tooling incentives can work to yield long term benefits for the US taxpayer and help keep the US auto flag flying well into the future.

For more on this please check out "We Can Invest in a CAFE driven Auto Bailout" http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/astevenson/we_can_inves ... ).

]]>