<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for <em>NYT</em> op-ed says mostly men will benefit from green jobs]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/ Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:07:13 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/1 Greenest Job of All...Parenthood


I suggest we pay moms (or dads) to stay at home with their kid for the first 10 years of life.

I would pay them $35K per year to do so...a reverse income tax based on a credit.

I would only pay for the first child and put penalties for more than one to discourage overpopulation.

They would get an extra credit of $10K if they contribute significantly to education, either through home schooling, or by volunteering at the public school that their child attends.

Texeme.Construct.Questioner


]]> Greenest Job of All...Parenthood


I suggest we pay moms (or dads) to stay at home with their kid for the first 10 years of life.

I would pay them $35K per year to do so...a reverse income tax based on a credit.

I would only pay for the first child and put penalties for more than one to discourage overpopulation.

They would get an extra credit of $10K if they contribute significantly to education, either through home schooling, or by volunteering at the public school that their child attends.

Texeme.Construct.Questioner


]]> Comment #2 by liberalnun http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/ Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:07:16 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/2 Linda: don't play into gender stereotypes..

While I understand Linda Hirshman's arguments and do not doubt her feminist credentials, I'm surprised that a feminist such as her would be so quick to classify engineering and lawyering as specifically "male" jobs, with the subtext that women cannot move into them. I'm convinced that there is no biological reason why we can't move into these fields in greater numbers. (The data backs me up on this; women and men do show different average abilities on spacial tasks, for example, but the standard deviations are so huge that this difference does not at all explain the huge gender gap in engineering.) Instead, I believe the reason has more to do with society; engineering is one of the last fields that still has a male-oriented culture, and a lot of women understandably still don't feel comfortable there.

No one doubts that our educational and social work systems need a lot of help - Linda's right that any stimulus package needs to include improvements in education and social mobility in general. But we also need to work harder to break down gender barriers in these high-demand, male-dominated fields that are going to be so essential to the country's future. I think that a lot of female-dominated fields are extremely valuable and deserve more attention, but we should not support them simply because they  currently give jobs to women. To do otherwise - to try to find more "traditional" roles for women under a green jobs program, preserving the status quo - would be sexist.

]]> Linda: don't play into gender stereotypes..

While I understand Linda Hirshman's arguments and do not doubt her feminist credentials, I'm surprised that a feminist such as her would be so quick to classify engineering and lawyering as specifically "male" jobs, with the subtext that women cannot move into them. I'm convinced that there is no biological reason why we can't move into these fields in greater numbers. (The data backs me up on this; women and men do show different average abilities on spacial tasks, for example, but the standard deviations are so huge that this difference does not at all explain the huge gender gap in engineering.) Instead, I believe the reason has more to do with society; engineering is one of the last fields that still has a male-oriented culture, and a lot of women understandably still don't feel comfortable there.

No one doubts that our educational and social work systems need a lot of help - Linda's right that any stimulus package needs to include improvements in education and social mobility in general. But we also need to work harder to break down gender barriers in these high-demand, male-dominated fields that are going to be so essential to the country's future. I think that a lot of female-dominated fields are extremely valuable and deserve more attention, but we should not support them simply because they  currently give jobs to women. To do otherwise - to try to find more "traditional" roles for women under a green jobs program, preserving the status quo - would be sexist.

]]> Comment #3 by Pangolin http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/ Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:30:02 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/3 All the roofers are men too.

That doesn't mean that women don't like a sound roof over their head. It's just that they have mysterious ways of avoiding the hot, dirty and dangerous job of roofing not available to men.

The fact that great portions of people manage to avoid the dangerous work involved in procuring food & shelter on the physical level doesn't mean that we can ignore it.

Any women willing to join the boys on roofing crews, insulation crews, window installers and sheet metal workers are welcome to sign up. Hot, dirty and dangerous; what's not to like? All the equality you want with none of the benefits of lawyering.

If the green jobs go to men I'm sure that women will somehow benefit due to the "invisible hand of the free market." Or possibly due to the not-so-invisible hand of their wives on the checkbook. The work still has to get done.

Put the Carbon Back

]]> All the roofers are men too.

That doesn't mean that women don't like a sound roof over their head. It's just that they have mysterious ways of avoiding the hot, dirty and dangerous job of roofing not available to men.

The fact that great portions of people manage to avoid the dangerous work involved in procuring food & shelter on the physical level doesn't mean that we can ignore it.

Any women willing to join the boys on roofing crews, insulation crews, window installers and sheet metal workers are welcome to sign up. Hot, dirty and dangerous; what's not to like? All the equality you want with none of the benefits of lawyering.

If the green jobs go to men I'm sure that women will somehow benefit due to the "invisible hand of the free market." Or possibly due to the not-so-invisible hand of their wives on the checkbook. The work still has to get done.

Put the Carbon Back

]]> Comment #4 by Lisa Hymas http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/ Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:42:38 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/4 letters about the maleness of green jobs

There are some interesting letters to the editor responding to Hirshman's piece.  

]]> letters about the maleness of green jobs

There are some interesting letters to the editor responding to Hirshman's piece.  

]]> Comment #5 by Gar Lipow http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/ Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:42:30 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/5 Hirshman is as half-assed as she always is

It is not inherent in green jobs that women won't get their fair share. As both these comments and letters to the editor at the times point out, plenty of women do roofing and carpentry and are electricians and plumbers and so on. Also green jobs are not limited to manual labor, not even skilled manual labor. They require trainers and administrators. In large commercial buildings, an important part of energy savings is the use of sophisticated monitoring and control systems that require skilled operators.

Jezebel also points out that Hirshman is also wrong about some of her key facts.

To put Hirshman in context, her schitct is to find feminist reasons for being anti-feminist and liberal reasons for supporting far right positions. She is one of those conservatives who always pretends that she is a liberal at heart,but she just has so much more common sense and intellectual rigor than liberals that she just ends up taking extreme right positions (for solid liberal reasons). It is not her fault that she isn't dumber than dirt the way most liberals are.

She is absolutely shameless in this pose: for example she often claims to speak as a housewife against heartless working women who just don't understand the the viewpoint of a homemaker, in spite of the fact that she has a full time maid and nanny, and by her own admission never does housework. And she earns more from her writing than your 90% of people out there. And the point is not that she is wrong to earn money or avoid housework, but to do that and then criticize other people for working, or to claim special insight into the circumstances of full-time unpaid homemakers is a bit much.

In this case I'd say she has half a point, and one that really is important. While there is nothing inherent in green infrastructure that would require discrimination against women, it is true that a lot of the investment will be jobs that are traditionally male-dominated. So if a large green investment is made without paying attention to feminist issues, it probably will result in discrimination against women. The proper solution is not to fail make that green investment, but to make sure that very strong efforts are made to preclude gender discrimination in recruiting, training hiring and promotion. I would add something Hirshman does not notice. Many of these same professions and trades are traditionally white dominated, often with a strong history of deliberate discrimination and racial exclusion.  So we need to make sure than any public investment has strong racial anti-discrimination policies in place as well. In short if we public fund green investment, we want to make sure appropriate diversity programs are built into that investment from the start.

So while I have zero respect for the messenger, I would take Hirshman's warning as a heads-up. It is not true that green investment is inherently discriminatory. It is very true that if fund green investment, we have to put real effort into making sure it is not discriminatory.

]]> Hirshman is as half-assed as she always is

It is not inherent in green jobs that women won't get their fair share. As both these comments and letters to the editor at the times point out, plenty of women do roofing and carpentry and are electricians and plumbers and so on. Also green jobs are not limited to manual labor, not even skilled manual labor. They require trainers and administrators. In large commercial buildings, an important part of energy savings is the use of sophisticated monitoring and control systems that require skilled operators.

Jezebel also points out that Hirshman is also wrong about some of her key facts.

To put Hirshman in context, her schitct is to find feminist reasons for being anti-feminist and liberal reasons for supporting far right positions. She is one of those conservatives who always pretends that she is a liberal at heart,but she just has so much more common sense and intellectual rigor than liberals that she just ends up taking extreme right positions (for solid liberal reasons). It is not her fault that she isn't dumber than dirt the way most liberals are.

She is absolutely shameless in this pose: for example she often claims to speak as a housewife against heartless working women who just don't understand the the viewpoint of a homemaker, in spite of the fact that she has a full time maid and nanny, and by her own admission never does housework. And she earns more from her writing than your 90% of people out there. And the point is not that she is wrong to earn money or avoid housework, but to do that and then criticize other people for working, or to claim special insight into the circumstances of full-time unpaid homemakers is a bit much.

In this case I'd say she has half a point, and one that really is important. While there is nothing inherent in green infrastructure that would require discrimination against women, it is true that a lot of the investment will be jobs that are traditionally male-dominated. So if a large green investment is made without paying attention to feminist issues, it probably will result in discrimination against women. The proper solution is not to fail make that green investment, but to make sure that very strong efforts are made to preclude gender discrimination in recruiting, training hiring and promotion. I would add something Hirshman does not notice. Many of these same professions and trades are traditionally white dominated, often with a strong history of deliberate discrimination and racial exclusion.  So we need to make sure than any public investment has strong racial anti-discrimination policies in place as well. In short if we public fund green investment, we want to make sure appropriate diversity programs are built into that investment from the start.

So while I have zero respect for the messenger, I would take Hirshman's warning as a heads-up. It is not true that green investment is inherently discriminatory. It is very true that if fund green investment, we have to put real effort into making sure it is not discriminatory.

]]> Comment #6 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/ Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:08:45 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/6 "Rosie the insulator"

As the last letter to the editor points out, many green jobs take additional schooling.  Women outnumber men in college and technical education, that should put gender parity in green jobs on the rise.

National service job programs should highlight childcare so that more mothers can work outside the home.  Any sort of promise of financial aid tends to make teen pregnancy more fashionable, a disturbing trend lead by celebrities like Palin and family.

With employment opportunites waning, look for a higher teen birthrate.  It has become a problematic way for unskilled, educationally challenged teenagers to establish some kind of self-esteem.  National service employment might turn some of these young lives headed for tragedy around.

Student grant and loan programs need to be bolstered with investment and quality control, too many colleges and technical schools are full the first two weeks of class until young students take their loan and grant money and run.  It's a disturbing trend.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> "Rosie the insulator"

As the last letter to the editor points out, many green jobs take additional schooling.  Women outnumber men in college and technical education, that should put gender parity in green jobs on the rise.

National service job programs should highlight childcare so that more mothers can work outside the home.  Any sort of promise of financial aid tends to make teen pregnancy more fashionable, a disturbing trend lead by celebrities like Palin and family.

With employment opportunites waning, look for a higher teen birthrate.  It has become a problematic way for unskilled, educationally challenged teenagers to establish some kind of self-esteem.  National service employment might turn some of these young lives headed for tragedy around.

Student grant and loan programs need to be bolstered with investment and quality control, too many colleges and technical schools are full the first two weeks of class until young students take their loan and grant money and run.  It's a disturbing trend.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Comment #7 by Zephaniah http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/ Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:31:36 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/7 Oil economy promotes sexism

The oil economy has promoted sexism on a grand scale, both here and even more so in the Middle Eastern oil producing countries.
In trainings for carbon reducing jobs we can mindfully avoid bias.

]]> Oil economy promotes sexism

The oil economy has promoted sexism on a grand scale, both here and even more so in the Middle Eastern oil producing countries.
In trainings for carbon reducing jobs we can mindfully avoid bias.

]]> Comment #8 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/ Mon, 15 Dec 2008 03:02:32 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/The-unbearable-maleness-of-green1/8 60 minutes on Aramco

A really strange feature of the story Leslie Stahl did on Aramco, the largest oil company in the world, a Saudi state owned company?  It is the only place in Saudi Arabia that women work along side men amd are allowed other civil rights.

The Aramco compound, offices and a suburban-like lasdscaped piece of desert, is a coporate area with different non-theocratic rules.

Weird.  

The Saudis want to become solar power entrpeneurs too.  in order to export electricty even wghen oil runs low.  They should consider desalination and water export too.  Desert sun can provide PV and solar furnace electric power as well as heat to desaliinate water.

With water shortahe due to glaciers melting and drought spreading, water really is, as has been widely stated, "the oil of this century".

I think US companies should team up with the saudis on renewables in exchange for capital investment in solar industries here.  It's a win/win green economic cooperation that could get us all working to save oil, stabilize prices, and use it wisely as we convert to a green economy.

Our companies have the products they need.  Business is a good basis for cooperation on other issues.  Like womens'  rights!  The most important issue in our overpopulation problem, our most impotant eco-issue, longterm.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> 60 minutes on Aramco

A really strange feature of the story Leslie Stahl did on Aramco, the largest oil company in the world, a Saudi state owned company?  It is the only place in Saudi Arabia that women work along side men amd are allowed other civil rights.

The Aramco compound, offices and a suburban-like lasdscaped piece of desert, is a coporate area with different non-theocratic rules.

Weird.  

The Saudis want to become solar power entrpeneurs too.  in order to export electricty even wghen oil runs low.  They should consider desalination and water export too.  Desert sun can provide PV and solar furnace electric power as well as heat to desaliinate water.

With water shortahe due to glaciers melting and drought spreading, water really is, as has been widely stated, "the oil of this century".

I think US companies should team up with the saudis on renewables in exchange for capital investment in solar industries here.  It's a win/win green economic cooperation that could get us all working to save oil, stabilize prices, and use it wisely as we convert to a green economy.

Our companies have the products they need.  Business is a good basis for cooperation on other issues.  Like womens'  rights!  The most important issue in our overpopulation problem, our most impotant eco-issue, longterm.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

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