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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for An interview with Mia MacDonald on China&#8217;s growing appetite for U.S.-style meat production]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:07:08 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/1</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>The BIG one</strong></p><p>"Other analysts suggest an even higher figure, attributing between 38 percent and 52 percent of GHGs to the livestock sector,"</p><p>
Everyone forgets a HUGE source of GHG, namely nitrous oxide emitted by chemical fertilizer, it is equal to a staggering 2/3 of the CO2 uptake of the crop fertilized.</p><p>
Now where does the carbon come from that is released from animal waste? &nbsp;It comes from the crops they eat. &nbsp;How much of a corn plant, for instance, is eaten by the animals?</p><p>
Mainly the kernels, somtimes in the case of silage more of the plant is consumed, but a lot of the silage GHG is emitted in the silo, during fermentation.</p><p>
So 2/3 of the GHG in the crop, the amount that nitrous oxide from the chemical fertilizer application, maybe doubles the GHG effect?</p><p>
Surprisingly this is actually good news. &nbsp;How could this be? &nbsp;Because there is a way to eliminate these GHG sources, manure and chemical fertilizer, almost completely.</p><p>
A way that produces clean efficient cogeneration distributed backup for a renewable smart grid.</p><p>
And these new estimates of 38 to 52% indicate that manure and crop waste is a lot bigger energy source than previously aknowleged.</p><p>
The method to eliminate over 50% of GHG? &nbsp;Is it going vegan? &nbsp;Nope, that isn't going to happen.</p><p>
It is biodigestion of waste stream biomass and the production of organic fertilizer to replace chemical fertilizer. &nbsp;The biogas produced runs at over 70% efficiency in fuel cell cogeneration and that makes it a perfect distributed backup power source for variable renewable sources like wind and solar.</p><p>
And this interview finally verifies what I have suspected for awhile, composting manure or field spreading it yields nitrous oxide, but biodigesting manure, and "green" manure crop waste, traps the nitrous oxide sending it through the fuel cell and converts it from 296x the GHG effect top plain old CO2.</p><p>
So even dedeicated organic gardeners ought to be putting their compost through a biodigestor in the first hot stage of composting, after that put it into a regular compost pile for the garden.</p><p>
Now how do we encourage biodigestion of the waste stream in China? &nbsp;We create market demand here for biodigestors, then chinese industry will mass produce them cheaper, to sell at Walmart and end up using them too.</p><p>
Witness the Friedman observation on the chinese and american embassies in an Indian city. &nbsp;The chinese enbassy had chinese made solar water heaters on the roof, the american embassy had antennaes.</p><p>
Don't look now, but with chinese industry pulling afead in solar, wind, and plugin hybrids (that can't be imported here), our green job revolution is in danger of becoming an installation and sales revolution only, with manufacturing jobs restricted to China. </p><p>
But you know the talking point, we can't go green because then China will beat us by sticking with cheap coal and gas guzzling. &nbsp;Hehey, who are the geniuses that come up with these wing nut talking points? &nbsp;They are called "think tanks". &nbsp;Kind of ironic eyyh?

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>The BIG one</strong></p><p>"Other analysts suggest an even higher figure, attributing between 38 percent and 52 percent of GHGs to the livestock sector,"</p><p>
Everyone forgets a HUGE source of GHG, namely nitrous oxide emitted by chemical fertilizer, it is equal to a staggering 2/3 of the CO2 uptake of the crop fertilized.</p><p>
Now where does the carbon come from that is released from animal waste? &nbsp;It comes from the crops they eat. &nbsp;How much of a corn plant, for instance, is eaten by the animals?</p><p>
Mainly the kernels, somtimes in the case of silage more of the plant is consumed, but a lot of the silage GHG is emitted in the silo, during fermentation.</p><p>
So 2/3 of the GHG in the crop, the amount that nitrous oxide from the chemical fertilizer application, maybe doubles the GHG effect?</p><p>
Surprisingly this is actually good news. &nbsp;How could this be? &nbsp;Because there is a way to eliminate these GHG sources, manure and chemical fertilizer, almost completely.</p><p>
A way that produces clean efficient cogeneration distributed backup for a renewable smart grid.</p><p>
And these new estimates of 38 to 52% indicate that manure and crop waste is a lot bigger energy source than previously aknowleged.</p><p>
The method to eliminate over 50% of GHG? &nbsp;Is it going vegan? &nbsp;Nope, that isn't going to happen.</p><p>
It is biodigestion of waste stream biomass and the production of organic fertilizer to replace chemical fertilizer. &nbsp;The biogas produced runs at over 70% efficiency in fuel cell cogeneration and that makes it a perfect distributed backup power source for variable renewable sources like wind and solar.</p><p>
And this interview finally verifies what I have suspected for awhile, composting manure or field spreading it yields nitrous oxide, but biodigesting manure, and "green" manure crop waste, traps the nitrous oxide sending it through the fuel cell and converts it from 296x the GHG effect top plain old CO2.</p><p>
So even dedeicated organic gardeners ought to be putting their compost through a biodigestor in the first hot stage of composting, after that put it into a regular compost pile for the garden.</p><p>
Now how do we encourage biodigestion of the waste stream in China? &nbsp;We create market demand here for biodigestors, then chinese industry will mass produce them cheaper, to sell at Walmart and end up using them too.</p><p>
Witness the Friedman observation on the chinese and american embassies in an Indian city. &nbsp;The chinese enbassy had chinese made solar water heaters on the roof, the american embassy had antennaes.</p><p>
Don't look now, but with chinese industry pulling afead in solar, wind, and plugin hybrids (that can't be imported here), our green job revolution is in danger of becoming an installation and sales revolution only, with manufacturing jobs restricted to China. </p><p>
But you know the talking point, we can't go green because then China will beat us by sticking with cheap coal and gas guzzling. &nbsp;Hehey, who are the geniuses that come up with these wing nut talking points? &nbsp;They are called "think tanks". &nbsp;Kind of ironic eyyh?

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:27:28 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/2</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>The root of the problem is increased <p>demand for animal products as a result of increasing wealth. It isn't just about meat. Eggs and dairy also usurp a great deal of &nbsp;grain and arable land, and emit about as much GHG as chicken and pork, but slightly less so than beef.<p>
The answers lie in two categories:<p>


Ways to convince people to consume fewer animal products or less destructive animal products (beef is the worst offender). Promoting vegetarianism may be counterproductive because eggs and dairy are roughly as environmentally intensive as meat production. The term has also taken on a negative connotation for many because it is often associated with more extreme elements--veganism and animal rights. Maybe a new term is needed to describe a diet that treads more lightly on the biosphere, one that is more inclusive, less group insular.<p>
Ways to produce animal products that are much less environmentally destructive.<p>


CAFOs certainly have their downsides but they are also probably less environmentally destructive than many other means of raising livestock. If properly regulated they also offer the chance to capture methane and process manure into fertilizer. If you can fix the problems with CAFOs, some improved version may be the least of two evils.<p>
The FAO report points out that land use change (destruction of grassland and forest carbon sinks, particularly to graze cattle), not fossil fuels, are the main culprit behind livestock's long shadow.<p>
Nearly 80 percent of deforestation in the Brazilian Amazon results from cattle ranching, according to a new report by Greenpeace<p>
<a href="http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0215-beef.html" rel="nofollow">http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0215-beef.html<p>
So what does this all mean for beef consumers in the United States? Not a lot at the moment. Brazilian beef is mostly exported to Europe<p>
And as the above quote notes, American diets don't have much to do with that part of the problem. 

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>The root of the problem is increased <p>demand for animal products as a result of increasing wealth. It isn't just about meat. Eggs and dairy also usurp a great deal of &nbsp;grain and arable land, and emit about as much GHG as chicken and pork, but slightly less so than beef.<p>
The answers lie in two categories:<p>


Ways to convince people to consume fewer animal products or less destructive animal products (beef is the worst offender). Promoting vegetarianism may be counterproductive because eggs and dairy are roughly as environmentally intensive as meat production. The term has also taken on a negative connotation for many because it is often associated with more extreme elements--veganism and animal rights. Maybe a new term is needed to describe a diet that treads more lightly on the biosphere, one that is more inclusive, less group insular.<p>
Ways to produce animal products that are much less environmentally destructive.<p>


CAFOs certainly have their downsides but they are also probably less environmentally destructive than many other means of raising livestock. If properly regulated they also offer the chance to capture methane and process manure into fertilizer. If you can fix the problems with CAFOs, some improved version may be the least of two evils.<p>
The FAO report points out that land use change (destruction of grassland and forest carbon sinks, particularly to graze cattle), not fossil fuels, are the main culprit behind livestock's long shadow.<p>
Nearly 80 percent of deforestation in the Brazilian Amazon results from cattle ranching, according to a new report by Greenpeace<p>
<a href="http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0215-beef.html" rel="nofollow">http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0215-beef.html<p>
So what does this all mean for beef consumers in the United States? Not a lot at the moment. Brazilian beef is mostly exported to Europe<p>
And as the above quote notes, American diets don't have much to do with that part of the problem. 

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:43:35 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/3</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Humane rotational grazing</strong></p><p>That's true bio-d, limiting the land area devoted to livestock is a laudible goal. &nbsp;I sure like the idea of natural herd animals though, like bison on restored natural prairie replacing beef.</p><p>
A good compromise might be limited confinement and healthy supllemental feeding, featuring &nbsp;rotational grazing with portable feeding/shelter/milking and manure collection stations on trailers.</p><p>
A careful misture of natural and selectively grown pasture plants would make for rotational grazing right along with biodiversity. &nbsp;Dairy farms here in the dairy state that went broke with traditional chemical ag are being brought back to life with organic rotational grazing.</p><p>
I really like the idea of eating far less meat too, but that is going to be a tough sell to the emerging economies especially. &nbsp;It's still worth it, green/health education ought to be a big priority.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>Humane rotational grazing</strong></p><p>That's true bio-d, limiting the land area devoted to livestock is a laudible goal. &nbsp;I sure like the idea of natural herd animals though, like bison on restored natural prairie replacing beef.</p><p>
A good compromise might be limited confinement and healthy supllemental feeding, featuring &nbsp;rotational grazing with portable feeding/shelter/milking and manure collection stations on trailers.</p><p>
A careful misture of natural and selectively grown pasture plants would make for rotational grazing right along with biodiversity. &nbsp;Dairy farms here in the dairy state that went broke with traditional chemical ag are being brought back to life with organic rotational grazing.</p><p>
I really like the idea of eating far less meat too, but that is going to be a tough sell to the emerging economies especially. &nbsp;It's still worth it, green/health education ought to be a big priority.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 05:23:27 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/4</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>And yet, <p>Yesterday, my neighborhood association declined to endorse a proposal to permit people to keep up to five laying hens in the capital of a state that likes to think of itself as Uber Green. &nbsp;<p>
Lots of concerns about "those people" who would drain the city's code compliance office's coffers with their unsightly chicken coops, letting the chickens run loose, attracting rats, yada yada yada.<p>
Funny, a number of people mentioned how the experience in other cities is that code compliance problems drop once hen-keeping is legalized, because then people have an incentive to spend some money on a proper coop and amenities. &nbsp;But, with hen-keeping illegal, no one in their right mind will spend real money on the hens that they're keeping because they know that they could have their investment wiped out by the city in a minute.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>And yet, <p>Yesterday, my neighborhood association declined to endorse a proposal to permit people to keep up to five laying hens in the capital of a state that likes to think of itself as Uber Green. &nbsp;<p>
Lots of concerns about "those people" who would drain the city's code compliance office's coffers with their unsightly chicken coops, letting the chickens run loose, attracting rats, yada yada yada.<p>
Funny, a number of people mentioned how the experience in other cities is that code compliance problems drop once hen-keeping is legalized, because then people have an incentive to spend some money on a proper coop and amenities. &nbsp;But, with hen-keeping illegal, no one in their right mind will spend real money on the hens that they're keeping because they know that they could have their investment wiped out by the city in a minute.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by mwildfire</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 02:13:21 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/5</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>CAFO problems</strong></p><p>I don't think you can "fix CAFO's" just by setting up digesters to deal with the wastes, although that would certainly be a sensible step forward. Monocultures inevitably create disease problems, which in capitalistic enterprise "necessitates" the intensive use of antibiotics, which leave residues in the food products and usually the local water supply. It seems to be a healthier solution to mix a few animals with intensive gardening, and use the manure to provide the fertilizer. We won't be synthesizing it from natural gas much longer.</p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>CAFO problems</strong></p><p>I don't think you can "fix CAFO's" just by setting up digesters to deal with the wastes, although that would certainly be a sensible step forward. Monocultures inevitably create disease problems, which in capitalistic enterprise "necessitates" the intensive use of antibiotics, which leave residues in the food products and usually the local water supply. It seems to be a healthier solution to mix a few animals with intensive gardening, and use the manure to provide the fertilizer. We won't be synthesizing it from natural gas much longer.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 03:01:13 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/The-CAFO-syndrome/6</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>I agree</strong></p><p>As long as the unregulated use of CAFO related chemical ag and all its health and GHG effects go forward under the banner of "free" market corporatism, simply digesting the manure won't be much of an improvement. &nbsp;It will be used instead to greenwash the CAFO industrial chemical ag.</p><p>
But here is how organic farm based biodigestion could beat CAFO chem ag: &nbsp;subsidies per kwh for biogas and other renewable energy plus payment from utilities would boost farm income. &nbsp;The organic fertilizer would cut the very high cost of organic feed.</p><p>
Those positive financial effects could not only save organic farming, but actually impell it's expansion. &nbsp;As the cost of organic food drops, consumers will embrace it, especially as the knowledge of the health effects of hormone, pesticide, herbicide, antibiotic, and anribiotic resistant disease laden chemical ag food products spreads through the public.</p><p>
Every new poisoning incident or disease outbreak or contamination related cancer connection pounds the stake into the heart of agrichem bidness.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>I agree</strong></p><p>As long as the unregulated use of CAFO related chemical ag and all its health and GHG effects go forward under the banner of "free" market corporatism, simply digesting the manure won't be much of an improvement. &nbsp;It will be used instead to greenwash the CAFO industrial chemical ag.</p><p>
But here is how organic farm based biodigestion could beat CAFO chem ag: &nbsp;subsidies per kwh for biogas and other renewable energy plus payment from utilities would boost farm income. &nbsp;The organic fertilizer would cut the very high cost of organic feed.</p><p>
Those positive financial effects could not only save organic farming, but actually impell it's expansion. &nbsp;As the cost of organic food drops, consumers will embrace it, especially as the knowledge of the health effects of hormone, pesticide, herbicide, antibiotic, and anribiotic resistant disease laden chemical ag food products spreads through the public.</p><p>
Every new poisoning incident or disease outbreak or contamination related cancer connection pounds the stake into the heart of agrichem bidness.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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