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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for While we obsess about &#8216;clean&#8217; coal and bail out the mortgage industry, Germans build passively]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 02:53:44 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Millions of homes and cars</strong></p><p>Rendered unsaleable by the credit crisis, need to be recycled. &nbsp;Mini-mcmansions need to be recyled into multifamily or multigenerational single family apartment buildings. &nbsp;The addition of a solar cogeneration wall and roof on southfacing sides and ground source heating could even make these recycled mcmansions efficient.</p><p>
For new construction: &nbsp;This passive design is good, even applicable in colder northen regions with ground source heat envelope design. &nbsp;This design gets the efficiency of an underground home, for homes built above ground.</p><p>
For those lots of gas guzzlers, will they rust for 5 to 10 years before being ground up in a car shredder? &nbsp;Or retrofit as plugin hybrids? &nbsp;Retrofitting would allow a car company to claim they are "new", again? &nbsp;Carbon fiber doors, hoods, fenders and so forth could lighten them, then plugin hybrid power plants could make them get 100+ mpg. &nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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				<p><strong>Millions of homes and cars</strong></p><p>Rendered unsaleable by the credit crisis, need to be recycled. &nbsp;Mini-mcmansions need to be recyled into multifamily or multigenerational single family apartment buildings. &nbsp;The addition of a solar cogeneration wall and roof on southfacing sides and ground source heating could even make these recycled mcmansions efficient.</p><p>
For new construction: &nbsp;This passive design is good, even applicable in colder northen regions with ground source heat envelope design. &nbsp;This design gets the efficiency of an underground home, for homes built above ground.</p><p>
For those lots of gas guzzlers, will they rust for 5 to 10 years before being ground up in a car shredder? &nbsp;Or retrofit as plugin hybrids? &nbsp;Retrofitting would allow a car company to claim they are "new", again? &nbsp;Carbon fiber doors, hoods, fenders and so forth could lighten them, then plugin hybrid power plants could make them get 100+ mpg. &nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by sunflower</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 03:11:20 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Germany of an idea</strong></p><p>This cuts to the heart and soul of our collective dilemma.</p><p>
To clarify the NYT, I and others live in USA passive homes. &nbsp;We have air-to-air heat exchangers, thick window shutters, thermal mass (aka concrete), passive solar gain, hot water preheat, and active dog body heat. &nbsp;The comfort is extraodinary and heating costs are almost zero. &nbsp;Solar access is not a prerequisite. &nbsp;No solar here in the Seattle area forest Nov 15-Feb 15. &nbsp;Passive still works holding in waste heat. &nbsp;Just to clarify.</p><p>
Your comment on using coal for heat is most disturbing. &nbsp;Was that to be in home coal burners or coal power for heat?</p><p>
What will large city-states do when natural gas is no longer available? &nbsp;Are homes that need fossil heat sustainable or do they have shortened life expectancies? </p><p>
Jobs program:</p><p>


&nbsp;Retrofit homes that can be salvaged.</p><p>
&nbsp;Replace homes that can not saved.</p><p>
&nbsp;Install district heating to replace gas lines.</p><p>
&nbsp;Capture waste heat from industry, burn biomass waste, collect summer sunshine, and employ seasonal heat storage (90% efficient). </p><p>


Or burn coal and die. </p><p>
&nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>Germany of an idea</strong></p><p>This cuts to the heart and soul of our collective dilemma.</p><p>
To clarify the NYT, I and others live in USA passive homes. &nbsp;We have air-to-air heat exchangers, thick window shutters, thermal mass (aka concrete), passive solar gain, hot water preheat, and active dog body heat. &nbsp;The comfort is extraodinary and heating costs are almost zero. &nbsp;Solar access is not a prerequisite. &nbsp;No solar here in the Seattle area forest Nov 15-Feb 15. &nbsp;Passive still works holding in waste heat. &nbsp;Just to clarify.</p><p>
Your comment on using coal for heat is most disturbing. &nbsp;Was that to be in home coal burners or coal power for heat?</p><p>
What will large city-states do when natural gas is no longer available? &nbsp;Are homes that need fossil heat sustainable or do they have shortened life expectancies? </p><p>
Jobs program:</p><p>


&nbsp;Retrofit homes that can be salvaged.</p><p>
&nbsp;Replace homes that can not saved.</p><p>
&nbsp;Install district heating to replace gas lines.</p><p>
&nbsp;Capture waste heat from industry, burn biomass waste, collect summer sunshine, and employ seasonal heat storage (90% efficient). </p><p>


Or burn coal and die. </p><p>
&nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Whiskerfish</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:36:25 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Why the hell you are not doing it 'here'</strong></p><p>is that despite the Internet, even educated Americans tend to be relentlessly inward-looking and parochial.</p><p>
George Monbiot wrote about the Passivhaus concept in his last book, Heat.</p><p>
Did none of you read that? I mean, he's one of the premier enviro jounalists/commentators in Europe, he writes in English, and rather well, but still so many 'well-read' American enviros don't bother accessing his stuff.</p><p>
?</p><p>
Cheers</p><p>
Whiskerfish (who is even further away than George, and far, far less-read)</p>
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				<p><strong>Why the hell you are not doing it 'here'</strong></p><p>is that despite the Internet, even educated Americans tend to be relentlessly inward-looking and parochial.</p><p>
George Monbiot wrote about the Passivhaus concept in his last book, Heat.</p><p>
Did none of you read that? I mean, he's one of the premier enviro jounalists/commentators in Europe, he writes in English, and rather well, but still so many 'well-read' American enviros don't bother accessing his stuff.</p><p>
?</p><p>
Cheers</p><p>
Whiskerfish (who is even further away than George, and far, far less-read)</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:40:30 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>The why nots...<p>Fourteen years ago I worked with a group of people planning a cohousing project in Northern California. The supposedly eco-aware architect and builder that had been selected were totally faking it. There were no certifications available above Energy-Star and that was a joke. The development group was more interested in style than in energy efficiency. Suggested fixes like reducing surface to volume ratios and reducing materials cost were put down by "the experts." <p>
The result was a shambles. Crazy-quilt rooflines leaked and buildings collect heat in summer and shed heat in winter. Massive tile roofs that dumped heat into houses well after sunset weren't vented. Vinyl windows were installed with bad flashing that leaked air and water. Suing the builder and architect didn't do squat for the people sickened by resulting mold infestations.<p>
Honestly, building standards in the US are garbage and building inspectors rarely do their jobs. Insulation, weather stripping and flashing are rarely installed correctly because nobody is checking and the banks didn't care. They were selling the loans on anyway. <p>
I know of whole tracts of houses built on former vernal pools that will rot because the profit incentive exceeded the need to respect the environment. The Natomas section of new development in Sacramento California is second only to NOLA as a flood risk. Brand new housing and schools built behind a known bad levee. Houses built to fail; guaranteed to fail. These are local issues but similar fail-certain buildings exist in your area too.<p>
The idea that profit overrides safety and responsibility will choke america for decades. We live in things that look like houses and send our kids to things that look like schools. The ultimate why not is that flubbing the job makes a better profit. <p>
Until that gets fixed passive house designs are more hazard than help. Sealing people in an envelope of formaldehyde and glue isn't exactly a favor. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The why nots...<p>Fourteen years ago I worked with a group of people planning a cohousing project in Northern California. The supposedly eco-aware architect and builder that had been selected were totally faking it. There were no certifications available above Energy-Star and that was a joke. The development group was more interested in style than in energy efficiency. Suggested fixes like reducing surface to volume ratios and reducing materials cost were put down by "the experts." <p>
The result was a shambles. Crazy-quilt rooflines leaked and buildings collect heat in summer and shed heat in winter. Massive tile roofs that dumped heat into houses well after sunset weren't vented. Vinyl windows were installed with bad flashing that leaked air and water. Suing the builder and architect didn't do squat for the people sickened by resulting mold infestations.<p>
Honestly, building standards in the US are garbage and building inspectors rarely do their jobs. Insulation, weather stripping and flashing are rarely installed correctly because nobody is checking and the banks didn't care. They were selling the loans on anyway. <p>
I know of whole tracts of houses built on former vernal pools that will rot because the profit incentive exceeded the need to respect the environment. The Natomas section of new development in Sacramento California is second only to NOLA as a flood risk. Brand new housing and schools built behind a known bad levee. Houses built to fail; guaranteed to fail. These are local issues but similar fail-certain buildings exist in your area too.<p>
The idea that profit overrides safety and responsibility will choke america for decades. We live in things that look like houses and send our kids to things that look like schools. The ultimate why not is that flubbing the job makes a better profit. <p>
Until that gets fixed passive house designs are more hazard than help. Sealing people in an envelope of formaldehyde and glue isn't exactly a favor. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 02:31:44 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Good point, Pangolin<p>Not all architects are created equal, believe me. My neighborhood has its share of architectural disasters. <p>
On the topic of air quality, the heart and sole of a low energy house is the air exchange system. People have to breath. By capturing most of the heat as the stale air leaves you can hold onto your energy.<p>
A properly done system would keep air safe and healthy. Human beings have been living in unsafe housing for millennia. What we have today can be better than anything we've had in the past. Heating with wood and coal in primitive fire pits or stoves created a lot of bad air. Otzi the ice man mummy found in the alps had the lungs of a chain smoker.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Good point, Pangolin<p>Not all architects are created equal, believe me. My neighborhood has its share of architectural disasters. <p>
On the topic of air quality, the heart and sole of a low energy house is the air exchange system. People have to breath. By capturing most of the heat as the stale air leaves you can hold onto your energy.<p>
A properly done system would keep air safe and healthy. Human beings have been living in unsafe housing for millennia. What we have today can be better than anything we've had in the past. Heating with wood and coal in primitive fire pits or stoves created a lot of bad air. Otzi the ice man mummy found in the alps had the lungs of a chain smoker.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 03:29:17 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Presenting<p>The <a href="http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/erv/erv_features_benefits.html" rel="nofollow">Lossnay air filter.<p>
Preserving the heat and moisture of inside air, while providing air to breathe. &nbsp;This is especially important with air tight super-insulated homes and buildings.<p>
Public buildings that are required to provide a certain rate of air replacement could benefit, but unfortumately this technology has been widely ignored in building codes, even new energy efficient buildings are not incorporating it.<p>
For instance: I told the folks at <a href="http://www.aldoleopold.org/legacycenter/" rel="nofollow">"The Aldo Leopold Legacy Center" about it, this "Platinum LEED &#174; Certification from the U.S. Green Building Council" green construction project has a phenomenal efficiency rating, but no Lossnay filtration. &nbsp;It comes in second in LEED rating in north america to a canadian building. &nbsp;<p>
I suggested they add the Lossnay technology and go for number one! &nbsp;I guess I'll find out if they did at the next <a href="http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/10/28/3950561.html" rel="nofollow">"Aldo Leopold Half Marathon" trail run in fall 2009.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></a></p></a></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Presenting<p>The <a href="http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/erv/erv_features_benefits.html" rel="nofollow">Lossnay air filter.<p>
Preserving the heat and moisture of inside air, while providing air to breathe. &nbsp;This is especially important with air tight super-insulated homes and buildings.<p>
Public buildings that are required to provide a certain rate of air replacement could benefit, but unfortumately this technology has been widely ignored in building codes, even new energy efficient buildings are not incorporating it.<p>
For instance: I told the folks at <a href="http://www.aldoleopold.org/legacycenter/" rel="nofollow">"The Aldo Leopold Legacy Center" about it, this "Platinum LEED &#174; Certification from the U.S. Green Building Council" green construction project has a phenomenal efficiency rating, but no Lossnay filtration. &nbsp;It comes in second in LEED rating in north america to a canadian building. &nbsp;<p>
I suggested they add the Lossnay technology and go for number one! &nbsp;I guess I'll find out if they did at the next <a href="http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/10/28/3950561.html" rel="nofollow">"Aldo Leopold Half Marathon" trail run in fall 2009.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></a></p></a></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:33:05 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Nice find, DrX<p>I saved that one to my solar fab five.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Nice find, DrX<p>I saved that one to my solar fab five.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:51:38 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>It works on the &quot;fur&quot; principle bio-d</strong></p><p>When my dog breathes out through his tail, curled up in the snow, sled dog style, moisture and warmth are trapped in the fur, then when he breathes in the new air, a portion of the water/warmth lost to the cold, dry air returns.</p><p>
Pretty cool, we'll see if the Leopold Center adopts it. &nbsp;That was quite a trail run.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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				<p><strong>It works on the &quot;fur&quot; principle bio-d</strong></p><p>When my dog breathes out through his tail, curled up in the snow, sled dog style, moisture and warmth are trapped in the fur, then when he breathes in the new air, a portion of the water/warmth lost to the cold, dry air returns.</p><p>
Pretty cool, we'll see if the Leopold Center adopts it. &nbsp;That was quite a trail run.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by hapa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:15:49 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>didn't have to read 'heat' to know it</strong></p><p>in columns, monbiot's talked about german and UK building standards many times in the two years since.</p><p>
but it shows the political disconnect. the sanctioned conversation. US politics in its own bubble. US "enviros" very concerned with not appearing populist-radical. greens elsewhere have come to terms with needing an actual broad base of power to bring down dirty practices.</p><p>
sounds like i'm about to make this about the green party, or the big duopoly, but no. the sword of wall street hangs over the head of everything here. acknowledged market failures of crazy size and scope -- housing bubble, credit bubble, global warming, resource destruction -- are treated, the next day, as market opportunities for the people who kept the money and didn't even have to apologize.</p><p>
greens here are more compromised by market fundamentalism than the bankers. the bankers don't believe it.</p>
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				<p><strong>didn't have to read 'heat' to know it</strong></p><p>in columns, monbiot's talked about german and UK building standards many times in the two years since.</p><p>
but it shows the political disconnect. the sanctioned conversation. US politics in its own bubble. US "enviros" very concerned with not appearing populist-radical. greens elsewhere have come to terms with needing an actual broad base of power to bring down dirty practices.</p><p>
sounds like i'm about to make this about the green party, or the big duopoly, but no. the sword of wall street hangs over the head of everything here. acknowledged market failures of crazy size and scope -- housing bubble, credit bubble, global warming, resource destruction -- are treated, the next day, as market opportunities for the people who kept the money and didn't even have to apologize.</p><p>
greens here are more compromised by market fundamentalism than the bankers. the bankers don't believe it.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Angelsnecropolis</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:23:51 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>The &quot;American Dream&quot;</strong></p><p>Americans will never buy into "eco houses" unless it's government mandated. The majority of new construction is done in a completely unsustainable manner and it won't change unless there are laws that restrict or set specific standards for construction of new homes. Eco houses are still only on the minds of those whom label themselves environmentalists. The average American isn't concerned about how their houses are built or reducing it's impact. Climate change action will have to come from the top down and be made into laws otherwise the masses won't care. The reason is the same reason we have laws that make stopping at stop signs and speeding illegal. People won't police themselves.</p>
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				<p><strong>The &quot;American Dream&quot;</strong></p><p>Americans will never buy into "eco houses" unless it's government mandated. The majority of new construction is done in a completely unsustainable manner and it won't change unless there are laws that restrict or set specific standards for construction of new homes. Eco houses are still only on the minds of those whom label themselves environmentalists. The average American isn't concerned about how their houses are built or reducing it's impact. Climate change action will have to come from the top down and be made into laws otherwise the masses won't care. The reason is the same reason we have laws that make stopping at stop signs and speeding illegal. People won't police themselves.</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Gar Lipow</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:51:20 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Pasivhaus</strong></p><p>I wrote about the Passivhaus concept before Monbiot did. And, for that matter, Amory Lovins wrote about it back in the 90s. So it is not just Europeans who the powers that be in our nation ignore. And it is not as if Europe has actually been successful environmentally. They do better than the U.S. does, but these days that is not a very high standard. &nbsp;Europe fails by a smaller margin than the U.S., but they still fail.</p>
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				<p><strong>Pasivhaus</strong></p><p>I wrote about the Passivhaus concept before Monbiot did. And, for that matter, Amory Lovins wrote about it back in the 90s. So it is not just Europeans who the powers that be in our nation ignore. And it is not as if Europe has actually been successful environmentally. They do better than the U.S. does, but these days that is not a very high standard. &nbsp;Europe fails by a smaller margin than the U.S., but they still fail.</p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by stevo</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 04:36:46 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Passive-boxes-on-the-hillside/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>'Passive Boxes' - they work!</strong></p><p>As the architect of the first certified passive house standard building in North America, the `Waldsee BioHaus', I would like to add: they work!</p><p>
Here is why. I just got the total 2008 energy use information for this 5,000 square feet building = 13,000kWh (or $1,100). This includes all the energy used for this school building/dormitory by up to 30 people. About 5,500 kWh (or $500) of this is used for heating in the icebox (over 10,000 heating degree days) of the lower 48 with winter temperature not moving above 0&#176;F.</p><p>
By the way - this building are also define a new level of comfort; cozy warm, fresh air and healthy environment - less is more to the point.<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>'Passive Boxes' - they work!</strong></p><p>As the architect of the first certified passive house standard building in North America, the `Waldsee BioHaus', I would like to add: they work!</p><p>
Here is why. I just got the total 2008 energy use information for this 5,000 square feet building = 13,000kWh (or $1,100). This includes all the energy used for this school building/dormitory by up to 30 people. About 5,500 kWh (or $500) of this is used for heating in the icebox (over 10,000 heating degree days) of the lower 48 with winter temperature not moving above 0&#176;F.</p><p>
By the way - this building are also define a new level of comfort; cozy warm, fresh air and healthy environment - less is more to the point.<br>
</br></p>
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