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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Poll shows more Americans do not believe global warming is result of man-made activity]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by kmp</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 02:50:55 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Baby, it's cold outside</strong></p><p>People are, in general, very short-sighted. (See also: failing to convince people of the seriousness of global climate change, etc).</p><p>
It's been very cold in the Northeast and in much of the nation for the past few weeks. &nbsp;These poll results may be a result of timing as much as anything else. &nbsp;People do not equate unseasonably harsh winter with climate change. &nbsp;People think "Global warming my a$$."</p>
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				<p><strong>Baby, it's cold outside</strong></p><p>People are, in general, very short-sighted. (See also: failing to convince people of the seriousness of global climate change, etc).</p><p>
It's been very cold in the Northeast and in much of the nation for the past few weeks. &nbsp;These poll results may be a result of timing as much as anything else. &nbsp;People do not equate unseasonably harsh winter with climate change. &nbsp;People think "Global warming my a$$."</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by josullivan58</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 02:55:35 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>It is downright disturbing</strong></p><p>It reminds me of a statement in a Competitive Enterprise Institute (the "CO2 is Life" people) document about how they thought climate science will lose its urgency in the general public. </p><p>
People are doubting scientific facts because of the war on science is working and not because the science is becoming less certain.</p><p>
Hopefully this destructive trend can be reversed. </p>
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				<p><strong>It is downright disturbing</strong></p><p>It reminds me of a statement in a Competitive Enterprise Institute (the "CO2 is Life" people) document about how they thought climate science will lose its urgency in the general public. </p><p>
People are doubting scientific facts because of the war on science is working and not because the science is becoming less certain.</p><p>
Hopefully this destructive trend can be reversed. </p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by PeterWinters</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 03:28:42 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Importance of segmentation<p>Hello Meredith,<p>
We started up a market research agency (Haddock Research), last year, to really get a handle on how people feel and think about climate change. Like you, I have found the public opinion numbers disturbing and really wanted to understand what was going on. We did our own extensive survey of adults in Canada, the UK and the USA - and probably the most important thing to realise is that in each country, public opinion is very divided indeed!<p>
At our site (<a href="http://www.haddock-research.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.haddock-research.com) we produce press releases and free reports (you need to register for these). Last month I wrote a piece about the importance of segmentation - The Importance of Segmentation in Understanding Public Opinion to Climate Change and the Low-Carbon Economy; And a critical review of the HSBC Climate Change Index 2007<br>
- which you can read at:<p>
<a href="http://www.brockmann.com/index.php/green/green/guest-blog-importance-of-segmentation.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.brockmann.com/index.php/green/green/guest-blog ...<p>
I would be happy to assist with any questions.<p>
Peter<br>


<p>5764 Monkland Ave., Suite 13
Montreal (QC) Canada H4A 1E9

Understanding people's relationship with climate change and the low-carbon economy</p></br></p></p></a></p></br></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Importance of segmentation<p>Hello Meredith,<p>
We started up a market research agency (Haddock Research), last year, to really get a handle on how people feel and think about climate change. Like you, I have found the public opinion numbers disturbing and really wanted to understand what was going on. We did our own extensive survey of adults in Canada, the UK and the USA - and probably the most important thing to realise is that in each country, public opinion is very divided indeed!<p>
At our site (<a href="http://www.haddock-research.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.haddock-research.com) we produce press releases and free reports (you need to register for these). Last month I wrote a piece about the importance of segmentation - The Importance of Segmentation in Understanding Public Opinion to Climate Change and the Low-Carbon Economy; And a critical review of the HSBC Climate Change Index 2007<br>
- which you can read at:<p>
<a href="http://www.brockmann.com/index.php/green/green/guest-blog-importance-of-segmentation.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.brockmann.com/index.php/green/green/guest-blog ...<p>
I would be happy to assist with any questions.<p>
Peter<br>


<p>5764 Monkland Ave., Suite 13
Montreal (QC) Canada H4A 1E9

Understanding people's relationship with climate change and the low-carbon economy</p></br></p></p></a></p></br></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Alec Rawls</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:06:38 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>The 4th IPCC is pure intellectual fraud<p>The earth is rapidly cooling, and because solar-magnetic activity has dropped into a dormant phase of nobody knows what duration, it will continue to cool, probably for at least the next 20 years. The real danger is serious global cooling, and it always has been. <p>
Numerous studies have found a high degree of correlation (.7 to .8) between solar activity and global climate on all time scales, going back hundreds of millions of years. Solar activity was at "grand maximum" levels from 1940-2000. THAT is what caused the warming. From "grand maximum" there is nowhere to go but down. Cooling was inevitable, and with solar activity now suddenly down to rock bottom levels, it has already started. <p>
The 4th IPCC refuses to incorporate solar magnetic effects into their models on the grounds that they don't understand how it works. But that is not science. The scientific method is that data trumps theory. A scientist follows the facts. The IPCC's stand would be like a pre-Newtonian scientist predicting that, if he drops a rock, it will waft away on the wind, because he understands the wind pushing on an object, but he doesn't understand gravity, so he is not going to include it in his calculations. That is how scientific the IPCC is. <p>
Of course there are theories of how the solar-magnetic wind affects global temperature. The leading theory, from Henrik Svensmark, is that it sweeps away the high energy Galactic Cosmic Radiation that would otherwise ionize the atmosphere, seeding cloud formation. In effect, the solar wind blows the clouds away, giving the earth a sunburn. But the theory is secondary. Science is supposed to follow the facts, and the facts are clear: the solar wind is a, perhaps the, primary driver of global temperature. The IPCC is not science. It is religion. <p>
Anybody who really cares about the earth needs to chuck aside this fraudulent religion and start looking at the facts, because nothing is more devastating to flora and fauna than to be buried under a mile of ice, which is the real danger that we should be worried about, and doing whatever we can to forestall. <p>
Do you really want to be the last to know, figuring it out only when the frigid facts finally clobber you upside the head? &nbsp;<p>
My post here: <br>
<a href="http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-comment-on-epas-proposed-rulemaking.html" rel="nofollow">http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-comment-on-epa ...</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The 4th IPCC is pure intellectual fraud<p>The earth is rapidly cooling, and because solar-magnetic activity has dropped into a dormant phase of nobody knows what duration, it will continue to cool, probably for at least the next 20 years. The real danger is serious global cooling, and it always has been. <p>
Numerous studies have found a high degree of correlation (.7 to .8) between solar activity and global climate on all time scales, going back hundreds of millions of years. Solar activity was at "grand maximum" levels from 1940-2000. THAT is what caused the warming. From "grand maximum" there is nowhere to go but down. Cooling was inevitable, and with solar activity now suddenly down to rock bottom levels, it has already started. <p>
The 4th IPCC refuses to incorporate solar magnetic effects into their models on the grounds that they don't understand how it works. But that is not science. The scientific method is that data trumps theory. A scientist follows the facts. The IPCC's stand would be like a pre-Newtonian scientist predicting that, if he drops a rock, it will waft away on the wind, because he understands the wind pushing on an object, but he doesn't understand gravity, so he is not going to include it in his calculations. That is how scientific the IPCC is. <p>
Of course there are theories of how the solar-magnetic wind affects global temperature. The leading theory, from Henrik Svensmark, is that it sweeps away the high energy Galactic Cosmic Radiation that would otherwise ionize the atmosphere, seeding cloud formation. In effect, the solar wind blows the clouds away, giving the earth a sunburn. But the theory is secondary. Science is supposed to follow the facts, and the facts are clear: the solar wind is a, perhaps the, primary driver of global temperature. The IPCC is not science. It is religion. <p>
Anybody who really cares about the earth needs to chuck aside this fraudulent religion and start looking at the facts, because nothing is more devastating to flora and fauna than to be buried under a mile of ice, which is the real danger that we should be worried about, and doing whatever we can to forestall. <p>
Do you really want to be the last to know, figuring it out only when the frigid facts finally clobber you upside the head? &nbsp;<p>
My post here: <br>
<a href="http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-comment-on-epas-proposed-rulemaking.html" rel="nofollow">http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-comment-on-epa ...</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Trebuchet</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:49:25 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Polls are flaky</strong></p><p>Most people are victims to GWB's and the oil companies concentrated assault on the science behind global climate change. Remember that the goal of that assault wasn't to disprove climate change per se, but to make proving it almost impossible by continually keeping the debate open to question.</p><p>
So now the majority of people, whether they are for or against the science, are barely on one side of the other.</p><p>
So, since it's been colder here in the Northeast than in years past - mostly due to La Nina, people are swinging toward the "it's not happening" or "it's not our fault" stance.</p><p>
Remember that most people desperately want it not to be happening. It's terrifically scary and just this big monstrous thing so if there's groups that are saying "there's nothing to worry about", then those groups have a built-in audience.</p><p>
It could take years before the effects of that assault wear off. Years we don't really have. Every one of us needs to become an educator (many of us on grist are!).</p>
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				<p><strong>Polls are flaky</strong></p><p>Most people are victims to GWB's and the oil companies concentrated assault on the science behind global climate change. Remember that the goal of that assault wasn't to disprove climate change per se, but to make proving it almost impossible by continually keeping the debate open to question.</p><p>
So now the majority of people, whether they are for or against the science, are barely on one side of the other.</p><p>
So, since it's been colder here in the Northeast than in years past - mostly due to La Nina, people are swinging toward the "it's not happening" or "it's not our fault" stance.</p><p>
Remember that most people desperately want it not to be happening. It's terrifically scary and just this big monstrous thing so if there's groups that are saying "there's nothing to worry about", then those groups have a built-in audience.</p><p>
It could take years before the effects of that assault wear off. Years we don't really have. Every one of us needs to become an educator (many of us on grist are!).</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:57:52 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Science is hard<p>I think what's missing is some appreciation of how difficult it is to think scientifically, even for people trained to do or use science in their work, much less for people whose jobs never involve it directly and who are constantly told to think of themselves as "consumers" rather than critical-thinking citizens.<p>
I'm reading a really, really great book right now called "Overtreated: Why too much medicine is making us sicker and poorer" by Shannon Brownlee. &nbsp;It's really a very damning, very well documented indictment of our medical-pharmacological-industrial complex, which is very science-based but, at the tip of the spear, where physician/practitioner meets patient, hardly seems to refer to science at all. &nbsp;<p>
It's quite shocking to be reminded how deeply human -- which is to say, totally nonscientific -- many medical people are, how they will continue to do things that harm or even kill people because these actions make intuitive sense, even despite published reports based on controlled studies showing that what the physicians are doing is worse than useless. &nbsp;Add economic pressures to the mix and, well, you see the results all around you -- our health spending is #1 by a huge margin, the actual state of our health is right near Cuba and other poor countries.<p>
I was going to put a post up about it when I finished the book because I think we're losing the race to stabilize the climate and save some biodiversity, despite having lots of good science around (prior comment excepted), and we better figure out fast how to start getting people not to act like people so much ... which is to say, start using that thin overlay of cerebral matter more and the bottom 2/3 of the brain less. <p>
(The hook of the post was to be that, if "men and women of science" have such a hard time acting rationally in a profession where they have labored for centuries but only began to get results when it started using the results of science then we are making a wild lead off first when we expect everyday folks to appreciate science, especially when it conflicts with their everyday experience.)<p>
The scary part is that we have no time for things like "improving science education" to matter. &nbsp;<p>
Someone said that there was no use waiting for proponents of classical physics to adopt quantum theory so that it could be accepted as the standard model, the only thing you could do was wait for them to die off. &nbsp;I fear that we are in the same boat with respect to beliefs about atmospheric chemistry and our ability to alter it meaningfully -- there's a huge majority of people in the world who, at heart, don't believe that humans have the ability to do so even if we wanted to. &nbsp;By the time events prove them wrong, it will be too late to do much about it.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Science is hard<p>I think what's missing is some appreciation of how difficult it is to think scientifically, even for people trained to do or use science in their work, much less for people whose jobs never involve it directly and who are constantly told to think of themselves as "consumers" rather than critical-thinking citizens.<p>
I'm reading a really, really great book right now called "Overtreated: Why too much medicine is making us sicker and poorer" by Shannon Brownlee. &nbsp;It's really a very damning, very well documented indictment of our medical-pharmacological-industrial complex, which is very science-based but, at the tip of the spear, where physician/practitioner meets patient, hardly seems to refer to science at all. &nbsp;<p>
It's quite shocking to be reminded how deeply human -- which is to say, totally nonscientific -- many medical people are, how they will continue to do things that harm or even kill people because these actions make intuitive sense, even despite published reports based on controlled studies showing that what the physicians are doing is worse than useless. &nbsp;Add economic pressures to the mix and, well, you see the results all around you -- our health spending is #1 by a huge margin, the actual state of our health is right near Cuba and other poor countries.<p>
I was going to put a post up about it when I finished the book because I think we're losing the race to stabilize the climate and save some biodiversity, despite having lots of good science around (prior comment excepted), and we better figure out fast how to start getting people not to act like people so much ... which is to say, start using that thin overlay of cerebral matter more and the bottom 2/3 of the brain less. <p>
(The hook of the post was to be that, if "men and women of science" have such a hard time acting rationally in a profession where they have labored for centuries but only began to get results when it started using the results of science then we are making a wild lead off first when we expect everyday folks to appreciate science, especially when it conflicts with their everyday experience.)<p>
The scary part is that we have no time for things like "improving science education" to matter. &nbsp;<p>
Someone said that there was no use waiting for proponents of classical physics to adopt quantum theory so that it could be accepted as the standard model, the only thing you could do was wait for them to die off. &nbsp;I fear that we are in the same boat with respect to beliefs about atmospheric chemistry and our ability to alter it meaningfully -- there's a huge majority of people in the world who, at heart, don't believe that humans have the ability to do so even if we wanted to. &nbsp;By the time events prove them wrong, it will be too late to do much about it.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by 2wheeler</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:00:57 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>magnetic wingnuts?</strong></p><p>Yeah Alec, everytime I pick up a magnet off my refrigerator, it burns my hand! &nbsp;Your wingnuts may be a bit loose around the axles, I think the wheels are falling off your skeptic wagon.</p><p>
Historical context: Back in the 1890s there were novel parlor tricks and claims about electromagnetism; static electricity and sparks, magnetism, etc. &nbsp;It was all very charlatan like, in retrospect.</p><p>
Now, aided by scientific studies, data and methods we know about the earth's Ionosphere and magnetosphere-- about our planet's own electromagnetic field created by the rotation of the molten iron core deep inside earth-- and how it protects us from much of the harmful spectra of radiation that is flying past.</p><p>
The thermal (IR) type from our sun, is able to pass through and warms our surface; it is aided by the blanketing atmosphere which maintains the temperature higher than, say, that of the moon. It's a rather fine calibration to keep our system between the melting and boiling points of water, which most life as we know it depends on. &nbsp;Venus and Mars are examples of the two extremes beyond these limits...</p><p>
A friend believes that average Joe's have a hard time distinguishing on a daily basis between weather and climate. &nbsp;Maybe that's what explains this poll finding in the middle of the 10th coldest January on record (in my northern state, anyway). &nbsp;That and how the Weather Channel axed their climate science reporting...</p><p>
The warm seasons arrive statistically earlier each year. &nbsp;That is a climatic signal! &nbsp;USGS reports released just before the change of administrations underscore the gravity of the situation we're finding ourselves in due to human perturbations of the natural climate system.</p><p>
The science is happening, despite wingnut attestations to the contrary!<br>


<p>Moving toward sustainability with hopefulness, one revolution at a time.</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>magnetic wingnuts?</strong></p><p>Yeah Alec, everytime I pick up a magnet off my refrigerator, it burns my hand! &nbsp;Your wingnuts may be a bit loose around the axles, I think the wheels are falling off your skeptic wagon.</p><p>
Historical context: Back in the 1890s there were novel parlor tricks and claims about electromagnetism; static electricity and sparks, magnetism, etc. &nbsp;It was all very charlatan like, in retrospect.</p><p>
Now, aided by scientific studies, data and methods we know about the earth's Ionosphere and magnetosphere-- about our planet's own electromagnetic field created by the rotation of the molten iron core deep inside earth-- and how it protects us from much of the harmful spectra of radiation that is flying past.</p><p>
The thermal (IR) type from our sun, is able to pass through and warms our surface; it is aided by the blanketing atmosphere which maintains the temperature higher than, say, that of the moon. It's a rather fine calibration to keep our system between the melting and boiling points of water, which most life as we know it depends on. &nbsp;Venus and Mars are examples of the two extremes beyond these limits...</p><p>
A friend believes that average Joe's have a hard time distinguishing on a daily basis between weather and climate. &nbsp;Maybe that's what explains this poll finding in the middle of the 10th coldest January on record (in my northern state, anyway). &nbsp;That and how the Weather Channel axed their climate science reporting...</p><p>
The warm seasons arrive statistically earlier each year. &nbsp;That is a climatic signal! &nbsp;USGS reports released just before the change of administrations underscore the gravity of the situation we're finding ourselves in due to human perturbations of the natural climate system.</p><p>
The science is happening, despite wingnut attestations to the contrary!<br>


<p>Moving toward sustainability with hopefulness, one revolution at a time.</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Alec Rawls</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:52:24 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ths sunspot-climate link known since 1700s<p>Does 2 wheeler want some historical context? The last time the sun went into an extended funk we had the Little Ice Age, which coincided with the Maunder Minimum of sunspot activity. The very first econometric study, back in the 1800s, examined the solar-activity climate link, finding that when sunspot count was low, wheat prices were high (implying a poor growing season, with cloudy skies). In 1991 a <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/254/5032/698" rel="nofollow">couple of Danes got serious about doing statistical analyses of the solar cycle and climate and found a strong correlation between short-intense solar cycles and global warming, with longer less-intense cycles coinciding with global cooling. Since then the evidence has become overwhelming. <p>
So how do you jusfity the IPCC refusing to account any of this evidence AT ALL? Solar magnetic effects are not even in their model. That's how defrauded you all are. The IPCC misatributes solar warming effects to CO2, then multiplies the fraud by projecting this misattributed warming forward. It is a flat out lie, a 100% hoax, and you can EASILY determine this for yourself just by examining the evidence for the solar-climate connection that the IPCC refuses to account. Global warming is not just a religion. It is a religion of lies. </p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Ths sunspot-climate link known since 1700s<p>Does 2 wheeler want some historical context? The last time the sun went into an extended funk we had the Little Ice Age, which coincided with the Maunder Minimum of sunspot activity. The very first econometric study, back in the 1800s, examined the solar-activity climate link, finding that when sunspot count was low, wheat prices were high (implying a poor growing season, with cloudy skies). In 1991 a <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/254/5032/698" rel="nofollow">couple of Danes got serious about doing statistical analyses of the solar cycle and climate and found a strong correlation between short-intense solar cycles and global warming, with longer less-intense cycles coinciding with global cooling. Since then the evidence has become overwhelming. <p>
So how do you jusfity the IPCC refusing to account any of this evidence AT ALL? Solar magnetic effects are not even in their model. That's how defrauded you all are. The IPCC misatributes solar warming effects to CO2, then multiplies the fraud by projecting this misattributed warming forward. It is a flat out lie, a 100% hoax, and you can EASILY determine this for yourself just by examining the evidence for the solar-climate connection that the IPCC refuses to account. Global warming is not just a religion. It is a religion of lies. </p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Ted Clayton</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:41:07 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Scientocracy</strong></p><p>We're not a Scientocracy.</p><p>
A few of us (10-12%?) are natural-born science-types. &nbsp;It helps inform better decisions, by leadership. &nbsp;Very important, it helps tamp down the default buffoonery of being human. (Tho, scientific buffoonery is far from unknown.)</p><p>
But notice not only are we not one, but there are no Scientocracies. &nbsp;We've had science long enough now, there should be several examples, in the history books and in the current international scene. &nbsp;We have no incipient Vulcan or Romulan cultures. &nbsp;If one does appear, it is unlikely to be stable.</p><p>
We have obliged certain government agencies to use 'Best available science', instead of various (default) subjective processes, but we are not really going to set policy for our nation by scientific fiat.</p><p>
Environmentalism &amp; Co. have had great success appealing to scientific argument to win public policy contests, but it would be prudent to remember that science really only informs decisions, and does not force them.</p><p>
Decisions, especially the more crucial ones, remain primarily a matter of values &amp; principles, not logic &amp; science.</p>
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				<p><strong>Scientocracy</strong></p><p>We're not a Scientocracy.</p><p>
A few of us (10-12%?) are natural-born science-types. &nbsp;It helps inform better decisions, by leadership. &nbsp;Very important, it helps tamp down the default buffoonery of being human. (Tho, scientific buffoonery is far from unknown.)</p><p>
But notice not only are we not one, but there are no Scientocracies. &nbsp;We've had science long enough now, there should be several examples, in the history books and in the current international scene. &nbsp;We have no incipient Vulcan or Romulan cultures. &nbsp;If one does appear, it is unlikely to be stable.</p><p>
We have obliged certain government agencies to use 'Best available science', instead of various (default) subjective processes, but we are not really going to set policy for our nation by scientific fiat.</p><p>
Environmentalism &amp; Co. have had great success appealing to scientific argument to win public policy contests, but it would be prudent to remember that science really only informs decisions, and does not force them.</p><p>
Decisions, especially the more crucial ones, remain primarily a matter of values &amp; principles, not logic &amp; science.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by snedunuri</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 04:32:37 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>a paradox</strong></p><p>How is it that the American public is so scientifically ignorant, and yet the best science takes place in America? I believe its because in America science is something that is understood and pursued by a small (but extremely talented) minority of "others" "geeks", and "nerds". ie not "normal" people. So as long as these guys are delivering the best computers, software, medicine, and video games, the public really doesn't care to keep informed of science, giving slimey climate deniers a chance to jump in with their pseudo-science and confuse the public.</p>
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				<p><strong>a paradox</strong></p><p>How is it that the American public is so scientifically ignorant, and yet the best science takes place in America? I believe its because in America science is something that is understood and pursued by a small (but extremely talented) minority of "others" "geeks", and "nerds". ie not "normal" people. So as long as these guys are delivering the best computers, software, medicine, and video games, the public really doesn't care to keep informed of science, giving slimey climate deniers a chance to jump in with their pseudo-science and confuse the public.</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 05:16:11 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Why &quot;best science&quot; American, you ask<p>

It's not anymore. &nbsp;By any measure, other countries have surpassed the US in many if not most fields.<p>
A declining fraction of "US" scientists are natives. &nbsp;Graduate programs in science in US universities are dominated by foreign nationals.<p>


We do benefit greatly from a great brain drain from other countries -- at least we did until the Bush junta made this country so hostile to foreign nationals that a number of them went home to enrich their nations instead of ours.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Why &quot;best science&quot; American, you ask<p>

It's not anymore. &nbsp;By any measure, other countries have surpassed the US in many if not most fields.<p>
A declining fraction of "US" scientists are natives. &nbsp;Graduate programs in science in US universities are dominated by foreign nationals.<p>


We do benefit greatly from a great brain drain from other countries -- at least we did until the Bush junta made this country so hostile to foreign nationals that a number of them went home to enrich their nations instead of ours.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 05:29:03 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>One answer...<p>Snedunuri, I was just reading something related to your idea that Americans are distracted by computer games and gizmos. This was from a book review of Sheldon Wolin's <a href="http://www.alternet.org/story/85728/inverted_totalitarianism%3A_a_new_way_of_understanding_how_the_u.s._is_controlled/" rel="nofollow">"Democracy Incorporated". ("Inverted totalitarianism" is his term for "managed democracy".)Among the factors that have promoted inverted totalitarianism are the practice and psychology of advertising and the rule of "market forces" in many other contexts than markets, continuous technological advances that encourage elaborate fantasies (computer games, virtual avatars, space travel), the penetration of mass media communication and propaganda into every household in the country, and the total co-optation of the universities. Among the commonplace fables of our society are hero worship and tales of individual prowess, eternal youthfulness, beauty through surgery, action measured in nanoseconds, and a dream-laden culture of ever-expanding control and possibility, whose adepts are prone to fantasies because the vast majority have imagination but little scientific knowledge</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>One answer...<p>Snedunuri, I was just reading something related to your idea that Americans are distracted by computer games and gizmos. This was from a book review of Sheldon Wolin's <a href="http://www.alternet.org/story/85728/inverted_totalitarianism%3A_a_new_way_of_understanding_how_the_u.s._is_controlled/" rel="nofollow">"Democracy Incorporated". ("Inverted totalitarianism" is his term for "managed democracy".)Among the factors that have promoted inverted totalitarianism are the practice and psychology of advertising and the rule of "market forces" in many other contexts than markets, continuous technological advances that encourage elaborate fantasies (computer games, virtual avatars, space travel), the penetration of mass media communication and propaganda into every household in the country, and the total co-optation of the universities. Among the commonplace fables of our society are hero worship and tales of individual prowess, eternal youthfulness, beauty through surgery, action measured in nanoseconds, and a dream-laden culture of ever-expanding control and possibility, whose adepts are prone to fantasies because the vast majority have imagination but little scientific knowledge</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by Ted Clayton</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 08:03:46 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>The Myth of Science-Ignorance</strong></p><p>The public lacks the specialist-skills to derive Cladistic Trees or Mendellian F1 inheritance ... but they understand the Theory of Evolution quite well (to the distress of some religious communities).</p><p>
The public doesn't know specifically how to calculate neutron flux and nuclear resonance energy, but they do understand just fine that two pieces of plutonium driven rapidly together create a positive feedback radiation-increase that 'ignites' the whole mass in a nuclear explosion.</p><p>
The environmentalist' &amp; Anthropogenic Global Warming community rationale that regular people cannot grasp climate science, or that they are easily misinformed because they are "ignorant" or "unaware", is fallacious.</p><p>
Sure, we find the willfully ignorant and the perversely wrong-headed among the public. &nbsp;But to assume that the public as a whole is predominantly mentally incompetent, whereas we fine, properly-Green folk are their responsibly-enlightened betters ... this is a conceit, and the classic makings of one's own downfall.</p><p>
The public are capable of thinking satisfactorily, and they are very familiar with a wide range of manipulative forces brought to bear upon them. &nbsp;The idea that "deniers" will be able to have their way with a defenseless public runs afoul of the simple reality that average folks' lives are one continuous immersion-education in the wiles &amp; ways of manipulators. &nbsp;</p><p>
Consider for a moment the breadth &amp; depth of influences aimed at the public, conducted by the finest career professionals on Madison Avenue, in Hollywood, on Capitol Hill ... and then compare these honed armies to the relatively meager cadre of climate-skeptics. </p><p>
Painting the public as rube simpletons at the utter mercy of denier-demons is a red herring. &nbsp;That's not what the problem is for AGW.</p>
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				<p><strong>The Myth of Science-Ignorance</strong></p><p>The public lacks the specialist-skills to derive Cladistic Trees or Mendellian F1 inheritance ... but they understand the Theory of Evolution quite well (to the distress of some religious communities).</p><p>
The public doesn't know specifically how to calculate neutron flux and nuclear resonance energy, but they do understand just fine that two pieces of plutonium driven rapidly together create a positive feedback radiation-increase that 'ignites' the whole mass in a nuclear explosion.</p><p>
The environmentalist' &amp; Anthropogenic Global Warming community rationale that regular people cannot grasp climate science, or that they are easily misinformed because they are "ignorant" or "unaware", is fallacious.</p><p>
Sure, we find the willfully ignorant and the perversely wrong-headed among the public. &nbsp;But to assume that the public as a whole is predominantly mentally incompetent, whereas we fine, properly-Green folk are their responsibly-enlightened betters ... this is a conceit, and the classic makings of one's own downfall.</p><p>
The public are capable of thinking satisfactorily, and they are very familiar with a wide range of manipulative forces brought to bear upon them. &nbsp;The idea that "deniers" will be able to have their way with a defenseless public runs afoul of the simple reality that average folks' lives are one continuous immersion-education in the wiles &amp; ways of manipulators. &nbsp;</p><p>
Consider for a moment the breadth &amp; depth of influences aimed at the public, conducted by the finest career professionals on Madison Avenue, in Hollywood, on Capitol Hill ... and then compare these honed armies to the relatively meager cadre of climate-skeptics. </p><p>
Painting the public as rube simpletons at the utter mercy of denier-demons is a red herring. &nbsp;That's not what the problem is for AGW.</p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by snedunuri</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Losing-our-faith-in-science/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 12:58:56 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Re: Why &quot;best science&quot; American</strong></p><p>(1) I'm pretty sure is wrong. Which fields has the rest of the world surpassed the US? I am in a scientific field myself (computer science), and while I can't speak for other disciplines, I can pretty much say without hesitation that the US still remains the leader in this area. This is not to imply that other countries aren't doing some excellent work. They are. But the US is still the trend-setter and primary discoverer of new ideas.</p><p>
(2) I can agree with. But so long as the country can keep importing geeks, who really cares? There's still a waiting list as long as my right arm of geeks who want to immigrate here (hell, I myself did that several years ago)</p><p>
Anyway, my point was really that there's a big disconnect between the general public and scientists, more so than in other countries. And i think that is ultimately bad, since it allows pseudo-science and creationist freaks to set the agenda.</p>
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				<p><strong>Re: Why &quot;best science&quot; American</strong></p><p>(1) I'm pretty sure is wrong. Which fields has the rest of the world surpassed the US? I am in a scientific field myself (computer science), and while I can't speak for other disciplines, I can pretty much say without hesitation that the US still remains the leader in this area. This is not to imply that other countries aren't doing some excellent work. They are. But the US is still the trend-setter and primary discoverer of new ideas.</p><p>
(2) I can agree with. But so long as the country can keep importing geeks, who really cares? There's still a waiting list as long as my right arm of geeks who want to immigrate here (hell, I myself did that several years ago)</p><p>
Anyway, my point was really that there's a big disconnect between the general public and scientists, more so than in other countries. And i think that is ultimately bad, since it allows pseudo-science and creationist freaks to set the agenda.</p>
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