<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Geoengineering what?]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Ted Clayton http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:23:15 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/1 Seedy cloud-tricks

This is a pretty old techno-idea - 'seeding' the clouds to make it rain.  The record is spotty - sometimes it leads to rain, other times it doesn't.

In China's case, they delivered the chemical they used, with artillery shells - thousands of them - so the military got in a bunch of shooting-practice.

Plus, the people got to see their government taking agressive measures against the drought (/sarc).  (This is fairly typical 'China thing'.)

Cloud-seeding has been tried using just 'cold' to prompt rain-formation.  In the case I recall, they used (ahem) "dry-ice", but liquid air might do it too.

Is it a bad-idea/good-idea?  Well, far as I can tell, it's a dud-idea ... and in China's case it looks more like a PR exercise than anything else.

As for the snowstorm connection - I dunno.
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On a larger geoengineering scale, some have suggested using large reflector-arrays in space to block sunlight from some parts of Earth, and direct extra light & warmth to other parts.  Some of the folks into this idea might be hoping they could get a shot at trying to 'herd' the weather-system ... and in the process direct & prompt the rain.

Russia put a satellite up a few years back that appeared to be an early experimental stage of the reflector-idea.  They were booed down before actually deploying it (or even launching?).

Notice the Madison Avenue and Hollywood bunch think that this large-surface-in-space idea is totally groovy.  I think laws have already been passed to prevent flashing & gyrating wardrobe malfunctions etc in the evening skies.

]]> Seedy cloud-tricks

This is a pretty old techno-idea - 'seeding' the clouds to make it rain.  The record is spotty - sometimes it leads to rain, other times it doesn't.

In China's case, they delivered the chemical they used, with artillery shells - thousands of them - so the military got in a bunch of shooting-practice.

Plus, the people got to see their government taking agressive measures against the drought (/sarc).  (This is fairly typical 'China thing'.)

Cloud-seeding has been tried using just 'cold' to prompt rain-formation.  In the case I recall, they used (ahem) "dry-ice", but liquid air might do it too.

Is it a bad-idea/good-idea?  Well, far as I can tell, it's a dud-idea ... and in China's case it looks more like a PR exercise than anything else.

As for the snowstorm connection - I dunno.
===

On a larger geoengineering scale, some have suggested using large reflector-arrays in space to block sunlight from some parts of Earth, and direct extra light & warmth to other parts.  Some of the folks into this idea might be hoping they could get a shot at trying to 'herd' the weather-system ... and in the process direct & prompt the rain.

Russia put a satellite up a few years back that appeared to be an early experimental stage of the reflector-idea.  They were booed down before actually deploying it (or even launching?).

Notice the Madison Avenue and Hollywood bunch think that this large-surface-in-space idea is totally groovy.  I think laws have already been passed to prevent flashing & gyrating wardrobe malfunctions etc in the evening skies.

]]> Comment #2 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:09:27 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/2 Yeah that's the problem

Franken-weather.  Man taking on the role of god.

Another geoengineering  idea is to send a lot of seawater up into prevailing winds with high pressure renewably powered air compressors.  it would fall as snow on the tundra and ice, extending the reflective frozen surface longer into the sunny months.  That reflection and tudra melt prevention could be huge.

In warmer desert areas the water would fall as rain greening deserts and absorbing CO2.  Another huge geoengineering scale effect with thousands of floating wind/wave energy seawater spray platforms.  

But how to direct the timing and area of the water spray so it has a safe desireable effect, rather than a flood or storm front that devestates populated areas?

Our understanding of weather and climate is limited.  Do we play god/nature?  Does the emergency justify that risk?

Could 50,000 of these wind/wave pumps cancel 20% of human GHG effect?  "Liberty Ships" in the war against climate change anyone?  The energy platforms could supply electric power too.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Yeah that's the problem

Franken-weather.  Man taking on the role of god.

Another geoengineering  idea is to send a lot of seawater up into prevailing winds with high pressure renewably powered air compressors.  it would fall as snow on the tundra and ice, extending the reflective frozen surface longer into the sunny months.  That reflection and tudra melt prevention could be huge.

In warmer desert areas the water would fall as rain greening deserts and absorbing CO2.  Another huge geoengineering scale effect with thousands of floating wind/wave energy seawater spray platforms.  

But how to direct the timing and area of the water spray so it has a safe desireable effect, rather than a flood or storm front that devestates populated areas?

Our understanding of weather and climate is limited.  Do we play god/nature?  Does the emergency justify that risk?

Could 50,000 of these wind/wave pumps cancel 20% of human GHG effect?  "Liberty Ships" in the war against climate change anyone?  The energy platforms could supply electric power too.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Comment #3 by dicynodont http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/ Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:21:02 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/3 We are already playing God with the weather

Frakly I'm getting tired of the enviros who start frothing at the mouth at the mere mention of the word "geo-engineering". What do you think climate change as a result of CO2 emissions does? It creates precisely what you call "franken-weather" but on a massive, irreversible scale. That's why scientists are so desperate to begin researching geo-engineering, in the hope that the fix won't be as bad as doing nothing. It's hard to imagine doing nothing at this point.

And by the way, our current CO2 mitigation policies are tantamount to "doing nothing", because they are based on old IPCC policy that assumes CO2 will be slowly removed from the atmosphere if we stop emitting it slowly. This has now been proven wrong. Check out the article on the recent research of extremely well respected Dr. Susan Solomon, where she compares CO2 emissions to nuclear waste.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009 ...

So Gristmill Readers... if we're "nuking" the atmosphere by emitting CO2, what should we be doing about it? Obviously, we need to stop emitting CO2 as fast as freakin' possible. But if that's not enough to prevent catastrophic, irreversible climate change, then what? It seems that we must approach geoengineering calmly and rationally, because after all, we're already doing it irrationally with insane consequences.

]]> We are already playing God with the weather

Frakly I'm getting tired of the enviros who start frothing at the mouth at the mere mention of the word "geo-engineering". What do you think climate change as a result of CO2 emissions does? It creates precisely what you call "franken-weather" but on a massive, irreversible scale. That's why scientists are so desperate to begin researching geo-engineering, in the hope that the fix won't be as bad as doing nothing. It's hard to imagine doing nothing at this point.

And by the way, our current CO2 mitigation policies are tantamount to "doing nothing", because they are based on old IPCC policy that assumes CO2 will be slowly removed from the atmosphere if we stop emitting it slowly. This has now been proven wrong. Check out the article on the recent research of extremely well respected Dr. Susan Solomon, where she compares CO2 emissions to nuclear waste.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009 ...

So Gristmill Readers... if we're "nuking" the atmosphere by emitting CO2, what should we be doing about it? Obviously, we need to stop emitting CO2 as fast as freakin' possible. But if that's not enough to prevent catastrophic, irreversible climate change, then what? It seems that we must approach geoengineering calmly and rationally, because after all, we're already doing it irrationally with insane consequences.

]]> Comment #4 by Ted Clayton http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/ Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:50:39 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/4 Domestication of the weather

The idea to spray seawater into the air is that the droplets then evaporate, leaving tiny chemical crystals that serve as nucleation sites for cloud-droplets, right?

And, that the smaller the cloud-droplets, the whiter and more-reflective the cloud, right?  So, you want smaller nucleation sites in larger numbers, competing for the available moisture in the air, thus creating smaller droplets.

While robot-ships cruising the oceans with the wind and spraying seawater could do 'something', massive cargo-planes customized to carry & disperse carefully-formulated 'nucleation-dust' could do a great deal more, and they could do it rapidly, at the optimum altitude, in the locale where it could do the most good.

In general, though, regardless of the implementation mechanism, I agree that 'going after the clouds' is the best-largest leverage we can apply to the weather & climate.

Unavoidably, anything like this would have a giant impact on the weather - and rain - apart from and in addition to the intended 'climate-modification'.  No doubt, some would see such a program as an opportunity to pursue weather-related goals, separate from and possibly in conflict with the larger climate-control goal.  

'Domestication' of the weather could mark the onset of a dramatic new era & level of human modification of the planetary environment, comparable to or greater than the domestication of plants, animals & fire.

]]> Domestication of the weather

The idea to spray seawater into the air is that the droplets then evaporate, leaving tiny chemical crystals that serve as nucleation sites for cloud-droplets, right?

And, that the smaller the cloud-droplets, the whiter and more-reflective the cloud, right?  So, you want smaller nucleation sites in larger numbers, competing for the available moisture in the air, thus creating smaller droplets.

While robot-ships cruising the oceans with the wind and spraying seawater could do 'something', massive cargo-planes customized to carry & disperse carefully-formulated 'nucleation-dust' could do a great deal more, and they could do it rapidly, at the optimum altitude, in the locale where it could do the most good.

In general, though, regardless of the implementation mechanism, I agree that 'going after the clouds' is the best-largest leverage we can apply to the weather & climate.

Unavoidably, anything like this would have a giant impact on the weather - and rain - apart from and in addition to the intended 'climate-modification'.  No doubt, some would see such a program as an opportunity to pursue weather-related goals, separate from and possibly in conflict with the larger climate-control goal.  

'Domestication' of the weather could mark the onset of a dramatic new era & level of human modification of the planetary environment, comparable to or greater than the domestication of plants, animals & fire.

]]> Comment #5 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/ Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:39:14 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/Geoengineering-what/5 Mega-scale algae farming

Another geoengineering project that goes along with floating energy water spray platforms:  100s of  mile across algae farms on the ocean surrounded by a ring of filtration pipe.  Organic nutrient from biodigestion would be time released inside the ring so it was used up by the algae.

This doesn't involve weather modification.  

The biogas (and possibly biodiesel extracted by solar powered pyrolisis) produced by biodigesting the algae could then be used as backup energy for renewable power and  the organic fertilzer could be used to enhance soil carbon sink activity.

Even if the idea of spraying seawater was rejected on the grounds of "franken-weather", renewably powered desalination powered by the energy platforms could provide fresh water for greening deserts along with the organic fertilizer.

I'll admit that seawater spray weather modification maybe too dangerous in terms of inadvertant storm provacation.  maybe in far nothern and southern zones away from most human civilization it would be feasible as the snow and cloud event effects could be confined to wilderness?

Putting particulates in the atmosphere, cloud seeding, or spreading pollutants in the stratosphere seems clearly out of bounds.  It is just too dangerous and unpredictable.

The best geoengineering plan is really not geoengineering.  But on a global scale it is ungeoenhineering.  Biodigestion of the waste stream and organic agriculture ungeoengineers the industrial chemical ag revolution.  Can it be spread to cropland worldwide?  With mass production it could.  

It acts as carbon cancelling clean energy backup for a renewable energy economy.  Then the organic ag aspect could actually put all the carbon released by chemical ag back into soil carbon sinks.  

Could coral be grown out on the floating energy platforms and seeded into suitable ocean locations?  Coral stores a lot of carbon too.  as it dies due to human pollution and GHG climate change it will release CO2.  Could this positive feedback be reversed too?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Mega-scale algae farming

Another geoengineering project that goes along with floating energy water spray platforms:  100s of  mile across algae farms on the ocean surrounded by a ring of filtration pipe.  Organic nutrient from biodigestion would be time released inside the ring so it was used up by the algae.

This doesn't involve weather modification.  

The biogas (and possibly biodiesel extracted by solar powered pyrolisis) produced by biodigesting the algae could then be used as backup energy for renewable power and  the organic fertilzer could be used to enhance soil carbon sink activity.

Even if the idea of spraying seawater was rejected on the grounds of "franken-weather", renewably powered desalination powered by the energy platforms could provide fresh water for greening deserts along with the organic fertilizer.

I'll admit that seawater spray weather modification maybe too dangerous in terms of inadvertant storm provacation.  maybe in far nothern and southern zones away from most human civilization it would be feasible as the snow and cloud event effects could be confined to wilderness?

Putting particulates in the atmosphere, cloud seeding, or spreading pollutants in the stratosphere seems clearly out of bounds.  It is just too dangerous and unpredictable.

The best geoengineering plan is really not geoengineering.  But on a global scale it is ungeoenhineering.  Biodigestion of the waste stream and organic agriculture ungeoengineers the industrial chemical ag revolution.  Can it be spread to cropland worldwide?  With mass production it could.  

It acts as carbon cancelling clean energy backup for a renewable energy economy.  Then the organic ag aspect could actually put all the carbon released by chemical ag back into soil carbon sinks.  

Could coral be grown out on the floating energy platforms and seeded into suitable ocean locations?  Coral stores a lot of carbon too.  as it dies due to human pollution and GHG climate change it will release CO2.  Could this positive feedback be reversed too?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

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