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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Clinton appointee upholds destruction of Appalachia]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Pompey Road</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:05:32 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Almost Level West Virginia:</strong></p><p>Well so much for the fight against corporate terrorism. 

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Almost Level West Virginia:</strong></p><p>Well so much for the fight against corporate terrorism. 

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Beth Wellington</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:53:04 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Fourth Circuit <p>Will this case be appealed to the Supreme Court, or is that to be avoided because of its current composition. I find the background of the Chief Justice troubling, given his former role with the NMA. There is already one Clean Water Act case which EarthJustice argued before the Supreme Court in January, regarding gold gold mining in Alaska. Maybe once we have the decision in June, we'll have a better idea of where things stand. See:<br>
<a href="http://bethwellington.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-will-roberts-rule-on-clean-water.html" rel="nofollow">http://bethwellington.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-will-rober ...<br>
For a more detailed look at Roberts and the NMA, see:<br>
<a href="http://bethwellington.blogspot.com/2005/08/reject-john-roberts.html" rel="nofollow">http://bethwellington.blogspot.com/2005/08/reject-john-ro ...<p>
As I noted in both articles, Benjamin Wittes observation in the May 2005 issue of The Atlantic that "the threat to basic environmental protections from conservative jurisprudence is broad-based and severe...By tightening doctrinal requirements that limit citizen access to the courts, judges greatly reduce the legal accountability of polluters."</p></a></br></br></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Fourth Circuit <p>Will this case be appealed to the Supreme Court, or is that to be avoided because of its current composition. I find the background of the Chief Justice troubling, given his former role with the NMA. There is already one Clean Water Act case which EarthJustice argued before the Supreme Court in January, regarding gold gold mining in Alaska. Maybe once we have the decision in June, we'll have a better idea of where things stand. See:<br>
<a href="http://bethwellington.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-will-roberts-rule-on-clean-water.html" rel="nofollow">http://bethwellington.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-will-rober ...<br>
For a more detailed look at Roberts and the NMA, see:<br>
<a href="http://bethwellington.blogspot.com/2005/08/reject-john-roberts.html" rel="nofollow">http://bethwellington.blogspot.com/2005/08/reject-john-ro ...<p>
As I noted in both articles, Benjamin Wittes observation in the May 2005 issue of The Atlantic that "the threat to basic environmental protections from conservative jurisprudence is broad-based and severe...By tightening doctrinal requirements that limit citizen access to the courts, judges greatly reduce the legal accountability of polluters."</p></a></br></br></a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:37:06 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>a pity<p>A pity these guys keep reading the law this way, deferring to agencies so much.<p>
No matter, this will just be fuel for the fire, b/c in the court of public opinion, coal operators CANNOT rebuild streams, and the watersheds are not equivalent to what they were pre-mining. <p>
This loss will make the victories we see this year on MTR all the more sweet.<p>
Erik

<p><a href="http://www.oriongrassroots.org" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: supporting grassroots groups working for conservation, justice, &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>a pity<p>A pity these guys keep reading the law this way, deferring to agencies so much.<p>
No matter, this will just be fuel for the fire, b/c in the court of public opinion, coal operators CANNOT rebuild streams, and the watersheds are not equivalent to what they were pre-mining. <p>
This loss will make the victories we see this year on MTR all the more sweet.<p>
Erik

<p><a href="http://www.oriongrassroots.org" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: supporting grassroots groups working for conservation, justice, &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by archigeek</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:30:07 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Well...</strong></p><p>MTR may be losing the public relations battle, (debatable) but they are winning the important battles in the courts and amongst our paid-off whores we call Congress- men and women. When Pompey Road comes to this blog one day and says he/she is HAPPY with the way MTR is in rapid retreat, in theory, conception, and practice, then we can all celebrate. Not only in the Coal River area, but EVERYWHERE. I expect that day, unfortunately, is a good number of years away. The injustice of it all sickens me.

<p>The mellotron is your friend.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Well...</strong></p><p>MTR may be losing the public relations battle, (debatable) but they are winning the important battles in the courts and amongst our paid-off whores we call Congress- men and women. When Pompey Road comes to this blog one day and says he/she is HAPPY with the way MTR is in rapid retreat, in theory, conception, and practice, then we can all celebrate. Not only in the Coal River area, but EVERYWHERE. I expect that day, unfortunately, is a good number of years away. The injustice of it all sickens me.

<p>The mellotron is your friend.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 03:04:45 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Full financial disclosure</strong></p><p>Tough standards for financial disclosure need to be imposed and enforced on judges. &nbsp;No privacy in these matters can be tolerated anymore. &nbsp;Undercover investigation using informants posing as coal industry lobbyists should shaddow every judge involved.</p><p>
Every possible method for paying off judges must be tracked down and prosecuted. &nbsp;Including coal industry bribes funneled through friends and family members.</p><p>
There should be lifetime prohibitions on judges being employed by or benefitting in any way from participants in cases they rule on.</p><p>
Because of the widespread corruption of the juduciary branch by industry, judges must give up financial privacey and potential gain, sorry but it's the only way to stop the criminal conspiracy that is coal country industry/judicial partnership.</p><p>
Ever heard of RICO and asset forfieture, justice department? &nbsp;Or is that only for drug enforcement?</p><p>
Why investigate judges using the same draconian anti-constitutional methods that judges routinely uphold in their courts? &nbsp;Exactly, justice is fairness. &nbsp;</p><p>
Once a few of them are thrown out of their homes without any court procedure for "suspiscion" under RICO, well just maybe the next judge approached by a coal industry crook will think twice about taking the cash.</p><p>
Reopen Abu Graib for naked cheerleader coal country judge and industry crook pyramids? &nbsp;Wait a minute..that's going too far! &nbsp;Hehey.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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				<p><strong>Full financial disclosure</strong></p><p>Tough standards for financial disclosure need to be imposed and enforced on judges. &nbsp;No privacy in these matters can be tolerated anymore. &nbsp;Undercover investigation using informants posing as coal industry lobbyists should shaddow every judge involved.</p><p>
Every possible method for paying off judges must be tracked down and prosecuted. &nbsp;Including coal industry bribes funneled through friends and family members.</p><p>
There should be lifetime prohibitions on judges being employed by or benefitting in any way from participants in cases they rule on.</p><p>
Because of the widespread corruption of the juduciary branch by industry, judges must give up financial privacey and potential gain, sorry but it's the only way to stop the criminal conspiracy that is coal country industry/judicial partnership.</p><p>
Ever heard of RICO and asset forfieture, justice department? &nbsp;Or is that only for drug enforcement?</p><p>
Why investigate judges using the same draconian anti-constitutional methods that judges routinely uphold in their courts? &nbsp;Exactly, justice is fairness. &nbsp;</p><p>
Once a few of them are thrown out of their homes without any court procedure for "suspiscion" under RICO, well just maybe the next judge approached by a coal industry crook will think twice about taking the cash.</p><p>
Reopen Abu Graib for naked cheerleader coal country judge and industry crook pyramids? &nbsp;Wait a minute..that's going too far! &nbsp;Hehey.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 03:15:32 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>But those peanut butter execs?</strong></p><p>That just went chapter 11 to avoid lawsuits over their rat doody infected "food" products? &nbsp;Send them to Egypt immediately with the help of Blackwater's (now renamed XE) finest kidnap, torture/murder (fake) ninjas (they only wear the ninja suits).</p><p>
Make them eat their own products. &nbsp;Exclusively. &nbsp;Now that's brutal. &nbsp;No interogation needed.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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				<p><strong>But those peanut butter execs?</strong></p><p>That just went chapter 11 to avoid lawsuits over their rat doody infected "food" products? &nbsp;Send them to Egypt immediately with the help of Blackwater's (now renamed XE) finest kidnap, torture/murder (fake) ninjas (they only wear the ninja suits).</p><p>
Make them eat their own products. &nbsp;Exclusively. &nbsp;Now that's brutal. &nbsp;No interogation needed.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Pompey Road</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 04:10:48 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Pea brained Nuts!</strong></p><p><br>
Alas, The clarion call for deregulation, the mantra of the neo conservtive since Reagan was mumbling about that shinning city on a hill.</p><p>
As we initiate our crime scene investigation of who burned it down the trail leads back to the alzheimers mentality that threw the fuel on the economy and our regulatory agencies. </p><p>
I don't need his medium to tell be who ingnited it. George Bush's complete abrogation of any regulation from the finiancial to food safety has let us with commodities for the new poor he created not fit for human consumption. </p><p>
F.D.A. is but a shell of it's former self. Stipped of the funding needed to ensure our food safety by the consummate free market champion and "here it comes" the agri-corporate food lobby. </p><p>
Deregulate from short selling and short loaning on risky derivatives to the Peanut and Jelly sandwich we feed out kids. </p><p>
Only providence knows if we will survive the graft and incompetence loosed upon us over the last eight years. 

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Pea brained Nuts!</strong></p><p><br>
Alas, The clarion call for deregulation, the mantra of the neo conservtive since Reagan was mumbling about that shinning city on a hill.</p><p>
As we initiate our crime scene investigation of who burned it down the trail leads back to the alzheimers mentality that threw the fuel on the economy and our regulatory agencies. </p><p>
I don't need his medium to tell be who ingnited it. George Bush's complete abrogation of any regulation from the finiancial to food safety has let us with commodities for the new poor he created not fit for human consumption. </p><p>
F.D.A. is but a shell of it's former self. Stipped of the funding needed to ensure our food safety by the consummate free market champion and "here it comes" the agri-corporate food lobby. </p><p>
Deregulate from short selling and short loaning on risky derivatives to the Peanut and Jelly sandwich we feed out kids. </p><p>
Only providence knows if we will survive the graft and incompetence loosed upon us over the last eight years. 

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by guade00</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:58:15 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Courts have never been reliable guarantors...</strong></p><p>...of the environment. </p><p>
This decision is evidence of the crap shoot that is litigating protection of the environment. Legislating environmental protection in clear and unequivocal terms is the only way we will ensure our ecology will be preserved. </p><p>
Remember, the Supreme Court was one vote away from deciding that carbon was not a pollutant in Massachusetts v EPA. Had that decision fallen the other way, regulation of carbon emissions would have been set back a generation. </p><p>
Much better to elect conscientious people than to bring suits before conservative courts.<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Courts have never been reliable guarantors...</strong></p><p>...of the environment. </p><p>
This decision is evidence of the crap shoot that is litigating protection of the environment. Legislating environmental protection in clear and unequivocal terms is the only way we will ensure our ecology will be preserved. </p><p>
Remember, the Supreme Court was one vote away from deciding that carbon was not a pollutant in Massachusetts v EPA. Had that decision fallen the other way, regulation of carbon emissions would have been set back a generation. </p><p>
Much better to elect conscientious people than to bring suits before conservative courts.<br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 05:09:18 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>New Legislation Needed</strong></p><p>First, everyone should realize that the 4th Circuit is the most right wing of all the federal appellate courts. &nbsp;It is the ideological opposite of the 9th Circuit in the context of the U.S. judicial system, which figures considering which part of the U.S. the 4th Circuit covers (West Virginia, Virgina, Maryland, North Carolina, and South Carolina). &nbsp;These types of decisions are to be expected from these jerks.</p><p>
Instead of risking more of these defeats, a much better strategy is to strengthen the Clean Water Act to prohibit mountain top removal -- best option -- or at least place serious restrictions and regulations on it. &nbsp;If the legislation were properly drafted with explicit provisions, the courts would not be able to render immoral decisions like this one.</p>
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				<p><strong>New Legislation Needed</strong></p><p>First, everyone should realize that the 4th Circuit is the most right wing of all the federal appellate courts. &nbsp;It is the ideological opposite of the 9th Circuit in the context of the U.S. judicial system, which figures considering which part of the U.S. the 4th Circuit covers (West Virginia, Virgina, Maryland, North Carolina, and South Carolina). &nbsp;These types of decisions are to be expected from these jerks.</p><p>
Instead of risking more of these defeats, a much better strategy is to strengthen the Clean Water Act to prohibit mountain top removal -- best option -- or at least place serious restrictions and regulations on it. &nbsp;If the legislation were properly drafted with explicit provisions, the courts would not be able to render immoral decisions like this one.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by lil1949</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 06:53:59 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Fourth Circuit Ruling on Jurisdiction </strong></p><p>There are people all over this country who will say that it is wrong to destroy or desecrate &nbsp;the most important natural resource we have ---water. However, legal doesn't always equal right. &nbsp;</p><p>
The Ct. of Appeals has granted once again enoromous power to the Corps. &nbsp;The problem with that: &nbsp;Americans seen the competence, capability, and exectution of the Corp, as revealed through Katrina along with FEMA, and most recently with TVA. &nbsp;These agencies are no stronger or dedicated than the leaders and workers of those agencies. &nbsp;We haven't seen a great committment. They will perform no better than they are required to. &nbsp;</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>Fourth Circuit Ruling on Jurisdiction </strong></p><p>There are people all over this country who will say that it is wrong to destroy or desecrate &nbsp;the most important natural resource we have ---water. However, legal doesn't always equal right. &nbsp;</p><p>
The Ct. of Appeals has granted once again enoromous power to the Corps. &nbsp;The problem with that: &nbsp;Americans seen the competence, capability, and exectution of the Corp, as revealed through Katrina along with FEMA, and most recently with TVA. &nbsp;These agencies are no stronger or dedicated than the leaders and workers of those agencies. &nbsp;We haven't seen a great committment. They will perform no better than they are required to. &nbsp;</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Pompey Road</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 11:34:00 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>A tiny victory maybe:</strong></p><p><br>
Rumor has it the Corp operated flood control Dam at Fishtrap Kentucky has stopped issuing permits for any kind of mining. They got caught last summer with two non permitted hollow fills on the property. I am looking for verification in print from the corps, none availabe at this time but a lot of griping by local coal corporation because they can't get anything permitted at Fishtrap Dam. </p><p>
This will not effect the rest of the county or surrounding county's. Just the watershed area of the corps controlled area at Fishtrap. Probably just waiting for the decision of the 4th district before permitting any more strip or MTR's.

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>A tiny victory maybe:</strong></p><p><br>
Rumor has it the Corp operated flood control Dam at Fishtrap Kentucky has stopped issuing permits for any kind of mining. They got caught last summer with two non permitted hollow fills on the property. I am looking for verification in print from the corps, none availabe at this time but a lot of griping by local coal corporation because they can't get anything permitted at Fishtrap Dam. </p><p>
This will not effect the rest of the county or surrounding county's. Just the watershed area of the corps controlled area at Fishtrap. Probably just waiting for the decision of the 4th district before permitting any more strip or MTR's.

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Pompey Road</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/Fourth-Circuit-strikes-again/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:09:08 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>The Corps:</strong></p><p>It is more than just a little ironic for me to watch the destruction on the Corps of Engineer projects in W.Va., and East Ky., I wore the same little flag patch on my class A's during the Vietnam War era. I belonged to the 20th. Combat Engineer Battalion, (Land Clearing) 501st. Heavy Equipment Maintenance Company. </p><p>
The only people who did more environmental damage to the Forest and Jungles of Vietnam were the men who flew the Operation Ranch Hands missions spraying a defoliant called Agent Orange. The Dioxin in the defoliant caused a host of problems to the U.S. and other countries soldiers including the South Vietnamese soldier who had to stay and live with the aftereffects of the stuff. An increase in cancer deaths and mutations, birth defects that will probably &nbsp;be going on for another 4 generations. </p><p>
The D7E Bulldozers with the Rome Plow blade attachment we used were bad enough, sometimes in a 12 hour day we could clear 100-150 acres. Of course I was a draftee and really had no choice in the matter. I will never regret my service because of the lives we saved by clearing the vegetation back from the roads and base camps denying the enemy cover from which to launch ambush attacks on our personnel. The Rome Plow actually just cut the trees and brush off at a length of about 6" inches and did not allow for soil erosion except for in the monsoon season. Farmers would actually move in and raise crops on land that had formerly been denied to them. In actuality however it looked pretty devastating when we first got through clearing an area. &nbsp;I am hoping the area's of Vietnam we clear cut for force protection will heal. </p><p>
I never witnessed this type of eco-destruction again until they started doing it in my back yard. The fact they are doing it on Corps controlled projects flying the same flag as we did in the 20th Combat Engineers may be some sort of Karma coming home to roost. </p><p>
The long term study's of what we did over there are all over the internet and we did not blow off a hundred feet of overburden from a mountain and shove it into a valley covering up a fresh water stream. The place never recovered and we just cut the vegetation off level with the ground. </p><p>
Any judge, Corps official, Federal or State Surface Mine Official that signs off on this type of Eco-Terrorism is either Coal Corporation bought and paid for or cut from the same cloth as the people who knowingly produced a product with Dioxin in it knowing it was one of the most deadly toxins known to man. <br>


<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>The Corps:</strong></p><p>It is more than just a little ironic for me to watch the destruction on the Corps of Engineer projects in W.Va., and East Ky., I wore the same little flag patch on my class A's during the Vietnam War era. I belonged to the 20th. Combat Engineer Battalion, (Land Clearing) 501st. Heavy Equipment Maintenance Company. </p><p>
The only people who did more environmental damage to the Forest and Jungles of Vietnam were the men who flew the Operation Ranch Hands missions spraying a defoliant called Agent Orange. The Dioxin in the defoliant caused a host of problems to the U.S. and other countries soldiers including the South Vietnamese soldier who had to stay and live with the aftereffects of the stuff. An increase in cancer deaths and mutations, birth defects that will probably &nbsp;be going on for another 4 generations. </p><p>
The D7E Bulldozers with the Rome Plow blade attachment we used were bad enough, sometimes in a 12 hour day we could clear 100-150 acres. Of course I was a draftee and really had no choice in the matter. I will never regret my service because of the lives we saved by clearing the vegetation back from the roads and base camps denying the enemy cover from which to launch ambush attacks on our personnel. The Rome Plow actually just cut the trees and brush off at a length of about 6" inches and did not allow for soil erosion except for in the monsoon season. Farmers would actually move in and raise crops on land that had formerly been denied to them. In actuality however it looked pretty devastating when we first got through clearing an area. &nbsp;I am hoping the area's of Vietnam we clear cut for force protection will heal. </p><p>
I never witnessed this type of eco-destruction again until they started doing it in my back yard. The fact they are doing it on Corps controlled projects flying the same flag as we did in the 20th Combat Engineers may be some sort of Karma coming home to roost. </p><p>
The long term study's of what we did over there are all over the internet and we did not blow off a hundred feet of overburden from a mountain and shove it into a valley covering up a fresh water stream. The place never recovered and we just cut the vegetation off level with the ground. </p><p>
Any judge, Corps official, Federal or State Surface Mine Official that signs off on this type of Eco-Terrorism is either Coal Corporation bought and paid for or cut from the same cloth as the people who knowingly produced a product with Dioxin in it knowing it was one of the most deadly toxins known to man. <br>


<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></br></p>
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