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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for 9 damned good reasons why some U.S. environmentalists should heartily oppose Waxman-Markey]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by F James Handley</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:04:25 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p>Ken, Bravo!<p>There is an alternative to cap/trade: Revenue-neutral <a href="http://www.pricecarbon.org" rel="nofollow">carbon fee or tax. The <a href="Http://www.carbontax.org" rel="nofollow">Carbon Tax Center has&nbsp;posted our reasons for concluding that Wax-M isn't good enough.<p>One point you didn't mention: ACESA&nbsp;would create a $2 trillion carbon market that would be mirrored by an unregulated derivatives market. If you think that global warming can be solved by another financial crisis, ACESA is your bill. But if you think that kind of chaos might just push climate policy off the table, this one's too risky.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p></a></a></p></p>
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				<p>Ken, Bravo!<p>There is an alternative to cap/trade: Revenue-neutral <a href="http://www.pricecarbon.org" rel="nofollow">carbon fee or tax. The <a href="Http://www.carbontax.org" rel="nofollow">Carbon Tax Center has&nbsp;posted our reasons for concluding that Wax-M isn't good enough.<p>One point you didn't mention: ACESA&nbsp;would create a $2 trillion carbon market that would be mirrored by an unregulated derivatives market. If you think that global warming can be solved by another financial crisis, ACESA is your bill. But if you think that kind of chaos might just push climate policy off the table, this one's too risky.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p></a></a></p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Doug Meyer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:26:04 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p>The real sin of W-M is the public's perception that energy consumption needn't change, just those nasty power plants. Mainstream enviros are slime.&nbsp;They'll even lie&nbsp;to their kids 50 years from now, in front of&nbsp;that desperate moonscape of&nbsp;rusting turbines on the high plains: "Sorry, I didn't know how bad it would get!"</p>
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				<p>The real sin of W-M is the public's perception that energy consumption needn't change, just those nasty power plants. Mainstream enviros are slime.&nbsp;They'll even lie&nbsp;to their kids 50 years from now, in front of&nbsp;that desperate moonscape of&nbsp;rusting turbines on the high plains: "Sorry, I didn't know how bad it would get!"</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Devon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:48:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/3</guid>
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				<p>Ken,<p>I agree with you that we must oppose Waxman-Markey.&nbsp; But one of the biggest reasons for doing so, which I don't believe you list in your post, is that it is just plain bad policy.&nbsp; The excessive provision of international offsets and the possible utilization of the strategic allowance reserve mean that emissions could continue to rise at BAU rates for at least the next decade.&nbsp; Also, EPA and other independent analyses have shown that the Waxman-Markey RES will not lead to any new renewably energy deployment above the business as usual rate.&nbsp; Hello!!!!! What the hell is the point of an RES if it doesn't actually increase renewable deployment?<p>&nbsp;<p>See an excellent analysis conducted by the Breakthrough Institute <a href="http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/waxmanmarkey_climate_bill/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">(<a href="http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/waxmanmarkey_climate_bill/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/waxmanmarkey_climate_bill/), much of which has been confirmed or corroborated by EPA, CBO, and others .&nbsp;<p>Let's hope environmentalists heed your call.&nbsp; We need a real solution, not a sham bill like Waxman-Markey.&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;</p></p></p></p></p></a></a></p></p></p></p>
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				<p>Ken,<p>I agree with you that we must oppose Waxman-Markey.&nbsp; But one of the biggest reasons for doing so, which I don't believe you list in your post, is that it is just plain bad policy.&nbsp; The excessive provision of international offsets and the possible utilization of the strategic allowance reserve mean that emissions could continue to rise at BAU rates for at least the next decade.&nbsp; Also, EPA and other independent analyses have shown that the Waxman-Markey RES will not lead to any new renewably energy deployment above the business as usual rate.&nbsp; Hello!!!!! What the hell is the point of an RES if it doesn't actually increase renewable deployment?<p>&nbsp;<p>See an excellent analysis conducted by the Breakthrough Institute <a href="http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/waxmanmarkey_climate_bill/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">(<a href="http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/waxmanmarkey_climate_bill/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/waxmanmarkey_climate_bill/), much of which has been confirmed or corroborated by EPA, CBO, and others .&nbsp;<p>Let's hope environmentalists heed your call.&nbsp; We need a real solution, not a sham bill like Waxman-Markey.&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;</p></p></p></p></p></a></a></p></p></p></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by carlos.rymer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:15:24 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/4</guid>
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				<p>Very good reasons. Why don't we do a cost-benefit analysis, as many in Washington like to do in order to verify whether legislation should or shouldn't be supported?</p><p>If we did one, here's what it would come down to:</p><p>Cost of Climate Catastrophe Alone &gt; Action To Bring CO2 Down to 350ppm</p><p>Cost of Climate Catastrophe Alone &lt; Action To Take CO2 to 450ppm or Higher</p><p>It's that simple. Why? Think about it? If we don't take CO2 down to 350ppm, then all the money CBO says we will spend (the $100+ per citizen per year) will be money flushed down the toilet. That's because we'd reach tipping points anyways and so we'll still incur the cost of climate catastrophe alone because natural systems will be the ones driving climate change (due to dying forests, oceans holding no more CO2, permafrost melting, etc. etc.).</p><p>In the end, this will mean the cost of climate catastrophe plus the cost of leaving CO2 at 450ppm or so. In that case, why not let CO2 go to 550ppm or even 1000ppm. Is there really a difference? If our goal is to not reach 350ppm, we should then spend money on figuring out how we can adapt to climate catastrophe, especially in vulnerable areas of the world. PERIOD.</p><p>Where are the common sense economists when we need them in Washington?</p>
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				<p>Very good reasons. Why don't we do a cost-benefit analysis, as many in Washington like to do in order to verify whether legislation should or shouldn't be supported?</p><p>If we did one, here's what it would come down to:</p><p>Cost of Climate Catastrophe Alone &gt; Action To Bring CO2 Down to 350ppm</p><p>Cost of Climate Catastrophe Alone &lt; Action To Take CO2 to 450ppm or Higher</p><p>It's that simple. Why? Think about it? If we don't take CO2 down to 350ppm, then all the money CBO says we will spend (the $100+ per citizen per year) will be money flushed down the toilet. That's because we'd reach tipping points anyways and so we'll still incur the cost of climate catastrophe alone because natural systems will be the ones driving climate change (due to dying forests, oceans holding no more CO2, permafrost melting, etc. etc.).</p><p>In the end, this will mean the cost of climate catastrophe plus the cost of leaving CO2 at 450ppm or so. In that case, why not let CO2 go to 550ppm or even 1000ppm. Is there really a difference? If our goal is to not reach 350ppm, we should then spend money on figuring out how we can adapt to climate catastrophe, especially in vulnerable areas of the world. PERIOD.</p><p>Where are the common sense economists when we need them in Washington?</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Dave from Canada</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:23:04 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p>Ludicrous.&nbsp; Simply ludicrous.</p><p>Pinning hope on a "sweeping last-minute drive by humanity to save our collective asses".&nbsp;</p><p>That is just about the craziest thing I've ever heard.</p><p>Understand this: once the climate catastrophes start to mount, it will be too late.&nbsp; The impact of GHGs go on for decades after their release.&nbsp; When we see the catastrophes mount, we won't be able to stop them no matter what we do.</p><p>I wish the people weighing in on this subject actually understood the science.</p><p>Likewise with understanding politics - domestic and international.</p><p>The bill can be passed now, and improved later. If it doesn't get passed, there will be no carbon pricing in the US for several years, and Copenhagen will be a colossal failure.</p><p>I just hope you can live with yourself if it dies...</p>
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				<p>Ludicrous.&nbsp; Simply ludicrous.</p><p>Pinning hope on a "sweeping last-minute drive by humanity to save our collective asses".&nbsp;</p><p>That is just about the craziest thing I've ever heard.</p><p>Understand this: once the climate catastrophes start to mount, it will be too late.&nbsp; The impact of GHGs go on for decades after their release.&nbsp; When we see the catastrophes mount, we won't be able to stop them no matter what we do.</p><p>I wish the people weighing in on this subject actually understood the science.</p><p>Likewise with understanding politics - domestic and international.</p><p>The bill can be passed now, and improved later. If it doesn't get passed, there will be no carbon pricing in the US for several years, and Copenhagen will be a colossal failure.</p><p>I just hope you can live with yourself if it dies...</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by danyallsun</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:15:49 -0700</pubDate>
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				I don't think we know whether it will work in the long run.  That's what it boils down to. I just wonder if it's our only shot and I'm glad I'm not voting on it.
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				I don't think we know whether it will work in the long run.  That's what it boils down to. I just wonder if it's our only shot and I'm glad I'm not voting on it.
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            <title>Comment #7 by Peter Wood</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/9-damned-good-reasons-why-some-us-environmentalists-should-heartily-oppose-/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:59:29 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p>There is a huge difference between 450 ppm CO2, 550 ppm CO2 and 1000 ppm CO2. Our present trajectory is more likely to lead to 1000 ppm CO2 than the other levels. If we stay on the present trajectory for much longer then there is no way that the atmosphere will return to 350 ppm. Current proposed legislation might take us onto a trajectory that is consistent with something like 550 ppm -- which may give us a chance to tighten the trajectory later and get concentrations down to 350-450 ppm.</p><p><br />To think that we can get down to 350 ppm by opposing carbon pricing legislation is magical and delusional thinking.</p></br>
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				<p>There is a huge difference between 450 ppm CO2, 550 ppm CO2 and 1000 ppm CO2. Our present trajectory is more likely to lead to 1000 ppm CO2 than the other levels. If we stay on the present trajectory for much longer then there is no way that the atmosphere will return to 350 ppm. Current proposed legislation might take us onto a trajectory that is consistent with something like 550 ppm -- which may give us a chance to tighten the trajectory later and get concentrations down to 350-450 ppm.</p><p><br />To think that we can get down to 350 ppm by opposing carbon pricing legislation is magical and delusional thinking.</p></br>
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