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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Obama announces new efficiency initiatives as part of big clean-energy push]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by sunflower</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:56:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/1</guid>
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				<p>I subscribed the U.S. Department of Energy - Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy - and have been surprised by the can-do and have-done enthusiasm, vastly different from the old EERE.</p><p></p><p>http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/progress_alerts.cfm/pa_id=194</p><p></p><p>"When it comes to saving money and growing our economy, energy
efficiency isn't just low hanging fruit; it's fruit laying on the
ground," said Secretary Chu. "The most prosperous, competitive
economies of the 21st century will be those that use energy
efficiently. It's time for America to lead the way."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p>
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				<p>I subscribed the U.S. Department of Energy - Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy - and have been surprised by the can-do and have-done enthusiasm, vastly different from the old EERE.</p><p></p><p>http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/progress_alerts.cfm/pa_id=194</p><p></p><p>"When it comes to saving money and growing our economy, energy
efficiency isn't just low hanging fruit; it's fruit laying on the
ground," said Secretary Chu. "The most prosperous, competitive
economies of the 21st century will be those that use energy
efficiently. It's time for America to lead the way."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by ceolas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:12:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/2</guid>
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				<p>&nbsp;<p>Yes,&nbsp;ban consumers from buying what they want and applaud the savings!<p>Edison's simple safe light bulb is bought 19 times out of 20 in the USA.<br />The popularity is the reason to ban it: After all, that's why the savings are supposed to be so great,<br />no reason to ban what people don't want.<br />Think about it!<p>The fact is that efficiency regulation on a product sacrifices performance, construction, appearance and price features, and does not necessarily give the savings suggested anyway.<p>See&nbsp; <a href="http://ceolas.net/#cc2x" rel="nofollow">http://ceolas.net/#cc2x<br />onwards regarding the effect of efficiency regulation&nbsp; on buildings, lightbulbs, cars, dishwashers and other products,<br />as in Waxman-Markey and other recent regulation proposals.<p>About saving energy =<br />Does society need to save energy? No, no shortage of electric energy sources...<p>As for saving "14 new coal-fired power plants":<br />Who is paying for the energy? The consumer.<br />Building a power station to serve consumers, is no better or worse than building a factory or shop to serve them.<br />Your like of a certain type of light bulb is no better or worse than your like of a certain shirt or loaf of bread - sure, varieties can be banned, but that leaves less choice.<p>About "saving lots of emissions banning bulbs" =<br />Does your bulb give out any gases?<br />Bans are unfair on emission-free households, now or in the future,<br />and emissions can be dealt with directly - as is planned anyway - by using new cleaner coal or renewable (or nuclear) energy<p>Also - Energy Secretary Steven Chu's lab was involved in developing the compact fluorescent light bulb, any clash of interest there?<p>Why a ban is wrong:<br />For a long list, with references, why a ban on ordinary light bulbs is wrong, see:<br /><a href="http://ceolas.net/#li1x" rel="nofollow">http://ceolas.net/#li1x onwards<p>.</p></a></br></br></p></p></br></br></br></p></br></br></br></p></br></p></br></br></a></p></p></br></br></br></p></p></p>
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				<p>&nbsp;<p>Yes,&nbsp;ban consumers from buying what they want and applaud the savings!<p>Edison's simple safe light bulb is bought 19 times out of 20 in the USA.<br />The popularity is the reason to ban it: After all, that's why the savings are supposed to be so great,<br />no reason to ban what people don't want.<br />Think about it!<p>The fact is that efficiency regulation on a product sacrifices performance, construction, appearance and price features, and does not necessarily give the savings suggested anyway.<p>See&nbsp; <a href="http://ceolas.net/#cc2x" rel="nofollow">http://ceolas.net/#cc2x<br />onwards regarding the effect of efficiency regulation&nbsp; on buildings, lightbulbs, cars, dishwashers and other products,<br />as in Waxman-Markey and other recent regulation proposals.<p>About saving energy =<br />Does society need to save energy? No, no shortage of electric energy sources...<p>As for saving "14 new coal-fired power plants":<br />Who is paying for the energy? The consumer.<br />Building a power station to serve consumers, is no better or worse than building a factory or shop to serve them.<br />Your like of a certain type of light bulb is no better or worse than your like of a certain shirt or loaf of bread - sure, varieties can be banned, but that leaves less choice.<p>About "saving lots of emissions banning bulbs" =<br />Does your bulb give out any gases?<br />Bans are unfair on emission-free households, now or in the future,<br />and emissions can be dealt with directly - as is planned anyway - by using new cleaner coal or renewable (or nuclear) energy<p>Also - Energy Secretary Steven Chu's lab was involved in developing the compact fluorescent light bulb, any clash of interest there?<p>Why a ban is wrong:<br />For a long list, with references, why a ban on ordinary light bulbs is wrong, see:<br /><a href="http://ceolas.net/#li1x" rel="nofollow">http://ceolas.net/#li1x onwards<p>.</p></a></br></br></p></p></br></br></br></p></br></br></br></p></br></p></br></br></a></p></p></br></br></br></p></p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by neosapiens</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:41:29 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/3</guid>
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				<p>To Ceolas: Building a power station may not be worse if it's a solar thermal power station, but if the power station is going to spew massive amounts of pollution that causes property damage, illness and death, then that's not a morally-neutral choice.&nbsp; It's not a choice between chocolate and vanilla.&nbsp; There are consequences to burning fossil fuels.&nbsp; Saving energy means less acid rain, less asthma, fewer hospital emergency room trips and a more liveable world.</p><p>Banning incandescent bulbs wouldn't be necessary if the public were well-informed and highly motivated.&nbsp; Unfortunately, lots of people can't be bothered to lift a finger if they don't see an immediate, personal benefit.&nbsp;</p><p>And there are a lot of people who are so&nbsp;focused on ideological purity that reality doesn't register.&nbsp; We live in a cause-and-effect universe. What we believe "should" be right won't prevent the natural results of our actions from happening regardless of what thought should happen.</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
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				<p>To Ceolas: Building a power station may not be worse if it's a solar thermal power station, but if the power station is going to spew massive amounts of pollution that causes property damage, illness and death, then that's not a morally-neutral choice.&nbsp; It's not a choice between chocolate and vanilla.&nbsp; There are consequences to burning fossil fuels.&nbsp; Saving energy means less acid rain, less asthma, fewer hospital emergency room trips and a more liveable world.</p><p>Banning incandescent bulbs wouldn't be necessary if the public were well-informed and highly motivated.&nbsp; Unfortunately, lots of people can't be bothered to lift a finger if they don't see an immediate, personal benefit.&nbsp;</p><p>And there are a lot of people who are so&nbsp;focused on ideological purity that reality doesn't register.&nbsp; We live in a cause-and-effect universe. What we believe "should" be right won't prevent the natural results of our actions from happening regardless of what thought should happen.</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by ceolas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:43:36 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/4</guid>
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				<p>re building power station</p><p>= certainly one not spewing emissions would be preferable</p><p>In fact I have&nbsp; laid out how the waxman-markey bill could be much simpler just focusing on electricity and transport</p><p>= ceolas.net/#cc10x onwards</p><p>However, the point is that society doesn;'t actually need to save energy - and emissions can be dealt with directly</p><p>Put it this way, banning a combustion engine car stops emissions, banning bulbs does not, because they are not necessarily linked to&nbsp;emission release - for the very reason you give (non-emitting energy possibility)</p>
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				<p>re building power station</p><p>= certainly one not spewing emissions would be preferable</p><p>In fact I have&nbsp; laid out how the waxman-markey bill could be much simpler just focusing on electricity and transport</p><p>= ceolas.net/#cc10x onwards</p><p>However, the point is that society doesn;'t actually need to save energy - and emissions can be dealt with directly</p><p>Put it this way, banning a combustion engine car stops emissions, banning bulbs does not, because they are not necessarily linked to&nbsp;emission release - for the very reason you give (non-emitting energy possibility)</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by aberman32</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:21:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/5</guid>
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				Anyone know where one can find the actual regulation? I mean, which bulbs exactly will not be permitted in 2012?
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				Anyone know where one can find the actual regulation? I mean, which bulbs exactly will not be permitted in 2012?
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            <title>Comment #6 by ceolas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:54:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/6</guid>
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				<p>Neosapiens, additionally to other reply</p><p>1. Of course tmy entry was a bit tongue in cheek = I agree that it's good to lower emissions, though not necessarily cause of their CO2, rather their sulphur etc</p><p>2. However, re</p><p>"Banning incandescent bulbs wouldn't be necessary if the public were well-informed and highly motivated"</p><p>=&nbsp; All lights have advantages - that's why they are on the market for people to choose = there is no "right" choice. The point is to deal with the emission problem itself. There is no need to save energy as there are plenty of alternatives, and no oil imports are used for electricity generation in the USA, so no energy security reason either for cutting use.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>3. This is a ban for consumption - not usage safety - reason.</p><p>Therefore, if it was necessary to cut use (it isn't) then TAX would be much more logical.</p><p>Noone likes taxes, but here a light bulb tax &nbsp;would be presented as a clear alternative to a ban</p><p>Tax lowers use, and gives government inciome that can be used towards emission lowering&nbsp;(&nbsp;renewable energy etc projects or home insulation schemes etc) that lower emissions more than remaining light bulb use indirectly raises them</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
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				<p>Neosapiens, additionally to other reply</p><p>1. Of course tmy entry was a bit tongue in cheek = I agree that it's good to lower emissions, though not necessarily cause of their CO2, rather their sulphur etc</p><p>2. However, re</p><p>"Banning incandescent bulbs wouldn't be necessary if the public were well-informed and highly motivated"</p><p>=&nbsp; All lights have advantages - that's why they are on the market for people to choose = there is no "right" choice. The point is to deal with the emission problem itself. There is no need to save energy as there are plenty of alternatives, and no oil imports are used for electricity generation in the USA, so no energy security reason either for cutting use.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>3. This is a ban for consumption - not usage safety - reason.</p><p>Therefore, if it was necessary to cut use (it isn't) then TAX would be much more logical.</p><p>Noone likes taxes, but here a light bulb tax &nbsp;would be presented as a clear alternative to a ban</p><p>Tax lowers use, and gives government inciome that can be used towards emission lowering&nbsp;(&nbsp;renewable energy etc projects or home insulation schemes etc) that lower emissions more than remaining light bulb use indirectly raises them</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by tdballo</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 07:10:46 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-29-obama-efficiency-standards/7</guid>
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				<p>the standards cover general service fluorescent lamps and incandescent reflector lamps, not the archaic general service incandescent bulbs.<p>the rule is at the link below<p><a href="http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/incandescent_lamps.html" rel="nofollow">www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/incandescent_lamps.html<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;</p></p></a></p></p></p>
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				<p>the standards cover general service fluorescent lamps and incandescent reflector lamps, not the archaic general service incandescent bulbs.<p>the rule is at the link below<p><a href="http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/incandescent_lamps.html" rel="nofollow">www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/incandescent_lamps.html<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;</p></p></a></p></p></p>
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