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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Ask Umbra on meating your needs]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by veritone</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:37:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/1</guid>
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				<p>I became a Vegan after watching the documentary: A Delicate Balance, which I'd highly recommend. Or if you really want to scare the bejesus out of yourself, watch Earthlings, narrated by Joachim Phoenix. I found I couldn't make it all the way through and have redoubled my commitment to veganism. As George Monbiot remarked, and I'm paraphrasing from memory: we can afford to feed ourselves or our livestock, not both. In the end it is mathematical, if the morality doesn't sway you beforehand.</p>
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				<p>I became a Vegan after watching the documentary: A Delicate Balance, which I'd highly recommend. Or if you really want to scare the bejesus out of yourself, watch Earthlings, narrated by Joachim Phoenix. I found I couldn't make it all the way through and have redoubled my commitment to veganism. As George Monbiot remarked, and I'm paraphrasing from memory: we can afford to feed ourselves or our livestock, not both. In the end it is mathematical, if the morality doesn't sway you beforehand.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by johnnyredpocket</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:49:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/2</guid>
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				<p>i love meat</p>
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				<p>i love meat</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Clifford Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:43:56 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/3</guid>
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				<p>I don't feel anyone should buy meat just because it's about to "go," so as to prevent waste.&nbsp; But the argument that not buying such meat does any good, or lowers demand somehow, seems specious.&nbsp; All you're doing is hurting your grovery store, or in theis case, the BX.&nbsp;</p><p>I see similar arguments when folks say we should boycott a certain brand of gasoline.&nbsp; A popular urban myth is that if we boycott a company like Exxon, we can really hurt them.&nbsp; Not true.&nbsp; All you're doing is hurting the retailer or convenience store - because they already paid for thousands of gallons of fuel.&nbsp; Gasoline is fungible and there is no such thing as "Exxon" gasoline versus another brand.&nbsp; Exxon continues laughing all the way to the bank!</p><p>It's a similar story with beef.&nbsp; Buyers purchase half-cows that have been processed, and there is little brand allegiance unless you're in the organic or grass fed specialty markets - a side of beef is a side of beef that can be graded Choice through Prime.&nbsp; It too is fungible, and the retailer buys sides of beef and pays cash before selling it.&nbsp; The grower, feedlot, slaughter house, and truckers have already made their money.&nbsp;</p><p>Digging further, if demand does in fact fall, which can at times, the market corrects itself by lowering the price of beef ... which in turn can cause consumers to buy more of it!&nbsp; But there actually is a shortage of good beef now, and meat prices have shot through the roof.&nbsp; The economics is quite puzzling and what seems like a simple solution just doesn't work.&nbsp;</p><p>Which is why I say in answer to the question - do what you want to do, and if beef isn't on your personal menu, avoid the stuff like the plague.&nbsp;</p>
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				<p>I don't feel anyone should buy meat just because it's about to "go," so as to prevent waste.&nbsp; But the argument that not buying such meat does any good, or lowers demand somehow, seems specious.&nbsp; All you're doing is hurting your grovery store, or in theis case, the BX.&nbsp;</p><p>I see similar arguments when folks say we should boycott a certain brand of gasoline.&nbsp; A popular urban myth is that if we boycott a company like Exxon, we can really hurt them.&nbsp; Not true.&nbsp; All you're doing is hurting the retailer or convenience store - because they already paid for thousands of gallons of fuel.&nbsp; Gasoline is fungible and there is no such thing as "Exxon" gasoline versus another brand.&nbsp; Exxon continues laughing all the way to the bank!</p><p>It's a similar story with beef.&nbsp; Buyers purchase half-cows that have been processed, and there is little brand allegiance unless you're in the organic or grass fed specialty markets - a side of beef is a side of beef that can be graded Choice through Prime.&nbsp; It too is fungible, and the retailer buys sides of beef and pays cash before selling it.&nbsp; The grower, feedlot, slaughter house, and truckers have already made their money.&nbsp;</p><p>Digging further, if demand does in fact fall, which can at times, the market corrects itself by lowering the price of beef ... which in turn can cause consumers to buy more of it!&nbsp; But there actually is a shortage of good beef now, and meat prices have shot through the roof.&nbsp; The economics is quite puzzling and what seems like a simple solution just doesn't work.&nbsp;</p><p>Which is why I say in answer to the question - do what you want to do, and if beef isn't on your personal menu, avoid the stuff like the plague.&nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by achoirguy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:09:04 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/4</guid>
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				<p>Go Umbra!!! When I read the question I was worried you might give some softline answer, but you came right out and said it. WASTE IT!!! When we buy meat in any form, we support meat and all of the attendant evils. If that vendor saw the meat go "to waste", that is a clear indication of diminishing demand. You go girl.</p>
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				<p>Go Umbra!!! When I read the question I was worried you might give some softline answer, but you came right out and said it. WASTE IT!!! When we buy meat in any form, we support meat and all of the attendant evils. If that vendor saw the meat go "to waste", that is a clear indication of diminishing demand. You go girl.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Former Ag Teacher</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:58:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/5</guid>
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				<p>Megan from Fort Hood may have a good question.&nbsp; But the premise&nbsp;she provided with the question is errant.</p><p>Food animals typically do not suffer a "cruel factory farm existence" when raised in modern livestock confinement operations. Such animals are well fed and watered, protected from extreme weather conditions and provided with veterinary care when needed.&nbsp; They also aren't subjected to traumatic death by predatory animals.</p><p>In the case of pigs, modern harvest plants use stunning methods, including carbon dioxide stunning, to put the animal into deep unconsiousness before they are killed.</p><p>Producing pork and poultry&nbsp;in modern confinement units actually has less impact on the&nbsp;natural environment than open lot raised animals. In a confinement unit, feed efficiency (pound of feed it takes to make a pound of meat) is considerably higher than that of open lot animals, thus fewer resources are used to feed the animal to market weight.&nbsp; In addition, manure is contained until the opportune time for the farmer to apply it to fertilize crops.&nbsp; Conversely, manure from animals on open lots typically washes down gradient with each rain and ends up where gravity dictates, rather than where it will do the most good.</p><p>Although you need to be an informed and smart consumer, your conscience need not be burdened when you buy meat at the grocery store.&nbsp; In general, the animals are well treated and the United States has plenty of grain to feed animals with the goal of producing nutrient dense food for hungry people.</p>
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				<p>Megan from Fort Hood may have a good question.&nbsp; But the premise&nbsp;she provided with the question is errant.</p><p>Food animals typically do not suffer a "cruel factory farm existence" when raised in modern livestock confinement operations. Such animals are well fed and watered, protected from extreme weather conditions and provided with veterinary care when needed.&nbsp; They also aren't subjected to traumatic death by predatory animals.</p><p>In the case of pigs, modern harvest plants use stunning methods, including carbon dioxide stunning, to put the animal into deep unconsiousness before they are killed.</p><p>Producing pork and poultry&nbsp;in modern confinement units actually has less impact on the&nbsp;natural environment than open lot raised animals. In a confinement unit, feed efficiency (pound of feed it takes to make a pound of meat) is considerably higher than that of open lot animals, thus fewer resources are used to feed the animal to market weight.&nbsp; In addition, manure is contained until the opportune time for the farmer to apply it to fertilize crops.&nbsp; Conversely, manure from animals on open lots typically washes down gradient with each rain and ends up where gravity dictates, rather than where it will do the most good.</p><p>Although you need to be an informed and smart consumer, your conscience need not be burdened when you buy meat at the grocery store.&nbsp; In general, the animals are well treated and the United States has plenty of grain to feed animals with the goal of producing nutrient dense food for hungry people.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by achoirguy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:48:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/6</guid>
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				<p>Hmm... sounds like the meat industry discovered our hippie tree huggin' web site. LOL. Despite what the previous post says, meat is still quite harmful.</p>
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				<p>Hmm... sounds like the meat industry discovered our hippie tree huggin' web site. LOL. Despite what the previous post says, meat is still quite harmful.</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by splashy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:35:39 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/7</guid>
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				<p>As someone that was around when the transition was made from pasturing to feedlots, the animals <strong>do</strong> suffer from not being allowed to go out in a pasture most of the day. There are more foot problems, they can't spread out the way they want to, and they wade in feces all day, no matter how clean you try to keep it.</p><p>Can you imagine standing on concrete all day rather than the ground and grass your feet are designed no stand on? That's the life of feedlot cattle.</p>
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				<p>As someone that was around when the transition was made from pasturing to feedlots, the animals <strong>do</strong> suffer from not being allowed to go out in a pasture most of the day. There are more foot problems, they can't spread out the way they want to, and they wade in feces all day, no matter how clean you try to keep it.</p><p>Can you imagine standing on concrete all day rather than the ground and grass your feet are designed no stand on? That's the life of feedlot cattle.</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Former Ag Teacher</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:46:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/8</guid>
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				<p>I was mainly talking about hogs and poultry.&nbsp;&nbsp;You don't see a lot of feet and leg problems in poultry.&nbsp; Concrete doesn't cause much more problem for hogs than does dirt.&nbsp; Feet and leg&nbsp;trouble in hogs are more a function of age and breeding.&nbsp; Hogs and poultry on dirt lots spend much more time in their own manure than similar animals raised in.&nbsp; I've raised hogs on dirt and in buildings.&nbsp; The buildings are far superior.</p><p>I don't doubt that you were around when the move to confinement systems accelerated.&nbsp; But how much time did you spend on a farm?&nbsp; Cattle, hogs and poultry are all gregarious animals.&nbsp; They don't spread out a whole lot.&nbsp; In fact, during the winter, you have to watch out for hogs piling up in shelters and crushing each other in pastured pork and open lot systems.</p><p>Dairy cattle on concrete? Yes, in the Midwest, East, and Southeast where there is a lot of rain.&nbsp;And the concrete is&nbsp;kept pretty clean by scraping or&nbsp;flushing.&nbsp; And the cows are usually bedded down in free stalls that are clean.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In the West,&nbsp;a lot fewer dairy cattle are on concrete because of the&nbsp;drier climate.</p><p>As far as wading feces, based on my experience growing up&nbsp;on a 35 cow dairy farm I can tell&nbsp;that dairy most cattle in pasture based systems spend 3 to&nbsp;4 months a year wading mud\manure.&nbsp; Many small dairy farms moved to confinement systems for a large part of the year due to mud problems.</p><p>Beef cattle on concrete? Not very much.&nbsp; Most are fed in dirt lots.</p>
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				<p>I was mainly talking about hogs and poultry.&nbsp;&nbsp;You don't see a lot of feet and leg problems in poultry.&nbsp; Concrete doesn't cause much more problem for hogs than does dirt.&nbsp; Feet and leg&nbsp;trouble in hogs are more a function of age and breeding.&nbsp; Hogs and poultry on dirt lots spend much more time in their own manure than similar animals raised in.&nbsp; I've raised hogs on dirt and in buildings.&nbsp; The buildings are far superior.</p><p>I don't doubt that you were around when the move to confinement systems accelerated.&nbsp; But how much time did you spend on a farm?&nbsp; Cattle, hogs and poultry are all gregarious animals.&nbsp; They don't spread out a whole lot.&nbsp; In fact, during the winter, you have to watch out for hogs piling up in shelters and crushing each other in pastured pork and open lot systems.</p><p>Dairy cattle on concrete? Yes, in the Midwest, East, and Southeast where there is a lot of rain.&nbsp;And the concrete is&nbsp;kept pretty clean by scraping or&nbsp;flushing.&nbsp; And the cows are usually bedded down in free stalls that are clean.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In the West,&nbsp;a lot fewer dairy cattle are on concrete because of the&nbsp;drier climate.</p><p>As far as wading feces, based on my experience growing up&nbsp;on a 35 cow dairy farm I can tell&nbsp;that dairy most cattle in pasture based systems spend 3 to&nbsp;4 months a year wading mud\manure.&nbsp; Many small dairy farms moved to confinement systems for a large part of the year due to mud problems.</p><p>Beef cattle on concrete? Not very much.&nbsp; Most are fed in dirt lots.</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by gouletdrg</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:11:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-24-ask-umbra-meating-needs/9</guid>
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				<p>Myself, I would of used it.&nbsp; The Commissary's are adding a lot of organic and natural selections (at least the ones in my area are), so I want to support the commissary (and use my benefits) to support their move.&nbsp; The reason is also for the people.&nbsp; Someone mentioned the BX.&nbsp; The PX/BX (or AAFES depending upon what branch you are in) is not paid for by tax dollars.&nbsp; The Exchanges, along with other Morale, Welfare, Recreation (MWR) facilities are paid by service members by our use.&nbsp; The Commissary is paid by tax dollars, partially controlled by Congress, and paid for by the tax payer.&nbsp; As the American people support the Armed Forces (maybe not all the missions but the service members and familiies), I would not want the food to be wasted.&nbsp; Since I eat mostly organic/natural foods when I can, and I try to eat vegan at least once a week, I would "buy it" in good conscience.&nbsp; Then I would either use it for a meal when I have guests (sometimes I have to mix-up natural and not due to price or availablitity anyway) or donate it/prepare it for a soup kitchen.&nbsp;&nbsp;If I&nbsp;choose "buy-it", I would try to attempt to&nbsp;purchase what I could not find&nbsp;in organic/natural and only what is a need. &nbsp;Just my thought!</p>
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				<p>Myself, I would of used it.&nbsp; The Commissary's are adding a lot of organic and natural selections (at least the ones in my area are), so I want to support the commissary (and use my benefits) to support their move.&nbsp; The reason is also for the people.&nbsp; Someone mentioned the BX.&nbsp; The PX/BX (or AAFES depending upon what branch you are in) is not paid for by tax dollars.&nbsp; The Exchanges, along with other Morale, Welfare, Recreation (MWR) facilities are paid by service members by our use.&nbsp; The Commissary is paid by tax dollars, partially controlled by Congress, and paid for by the tax payer.&nbsp; As the American people support the Armed Forces (maybe not all the missions but the service members and familiies), I would not want the food to be wasted.&nbsp; Since I eat mostly organic/natural foods when I can, and I try to eat vegan at least once a week, I would "buy it" in good conscience.&nbsp; Then I would either use it for a meal when I have guests (sometimes I have to mix-up natural and not due to price or availablitity anyway) or donate it/prepare it for a soup kitchen.&nbsp;&nbsp;If I&nbsp;choose "buy-it", I would try to attempt to&nbsp;purchase what I could not find&nbsp;in organic/natural and only what is a need. &nbsp;Just my thought!</p>
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