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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Can human rights be the climate movement&#8217;s moral guide?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Howard Silverman</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 12:45:03 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/1</guid>
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				<p>Important conference. More on Carolyn Raffensperger's ideas on <a href="http://www.peopleandplace.net/on_the_wire/2009/5/24/carolyn_raffensperger_legal_guardianship_for_future_generations" rel="nofollow">guardianship for future generations.</a></p>
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				<p>Important conference. More on Carolyn Raffensperger's ideas on <a href="http://www.peopleandplace.net/on_the_wire/2009/5/24/carolyn_raffensperger_legal_guardianship_for_future_generations" rel="nofollow">guardianship for future generations.</a></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by racc</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 13:30:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/2</guid>
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				<p>Actually, resource and energy depletion are perhaps even larger issues for future generations than climate change. Oil and coal are useful resources. We have no right to use all of it up in a little more than 200 years. Climate "solutions" such as carbon sequestering that deplete energy resources even faster are not responsible at all.</p>
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				<p>Actually, resource and energy depletion are perhaps even larger issues for future generations than climate change. Oil and coal are useful resources. We have no right to use all of it up in a little more than 200 years. Climate "solutions" such as carbon sequestering that deplete energy resources even faster are not responsible at all.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by waves16</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 07:31:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/3</guid>
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				<p>&nbsp;<p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">The
idea of guardianship for future generation is good.  The
depletion of metals will soon hit us with crises like oil is doing
now (or once the economy picks up again). <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">&nbsp; <p>The  difference is that oil is replaceable by abundant and
relatively inexpensive alternatives. <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">Metals
have generally low substitutability, making the crises potentially
much worse.  Cap-and-trade does nothing about them.  We need to adopt
a structural strategy such as the one proposed by Henderson at <a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">A Structural
Strategy for Global Warming AND the Environment (lots of
new material added in May). <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">&nbsp; <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">The
approach covers not only fossil fuels and global warming but also the
conservation of metals and many other environmental issues.  It is
comprehensive. <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">&nbsp; <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">Tags:
<a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">cap-and-trade
problems and alternative solutions</a></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p>
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				<p>&nbsp;<p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">The
idea of guardianship for future generation is good.  The
depletion of metals will soon hit us with crises like oil is doing
now (or once the economy picks up again). <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">&nbsp; <p>The  difference is that oil is replaceable by abundant and
relatively inexpensive alternatives. <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">Metals
have generally low substitutability, making the crises potentially
much worse.  Cap-and-trade does nothing about them.  We need to adopt
a structural strategy such as the one proposed by Henderson at <a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">A Structural
Strategy for Global Warming AND the Environment (lots of
new material added in May). <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">&nbsp; <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">The
approach covers not only fossil fuels and global warming but also the
conservation of metals and many other environmental issues.  It is
comprehensive. <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">&nbsp; <p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">Tags:
<a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">cap-and-trade
problems and alternative solutions</a></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Clifford Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 19:30:27 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p>When somebody says "human rights" I think of poor people, discriminiation, and pollution - how pollution tends to affect more poor people who are discriminated against.&nbsp; In the parlance of US law, that's known as "environmental injustice."&nbsp;</p><p>And it is true that Climate Change, however it changes, will beyond a doubt affect many poor people as compared to the rich.&nbsp; For example, if a rich man loses a house into the ocean because of erosion and rising seas, or some other calamnity, well there's insurance and you just move on and buy something else.&nbsp; To the poor family that lives in a shack, you've lost about everything in the world and have absolutely nothing left. And nobody wants thousands of "eco-migrants" who don't have any money.</p><p>Now that's a rights issue.&nbsp;</p><p>So what I'm detecting is some of the "Smug Hippie Effect" where smart people talk about defending future generations, or people who are portrayed as being unable to speak for themselves - hey hire me, I can be your mouthpiece!&nbsp; It's a problem like Big Tobacco, let's start a tort case and file for bazillions of dollars!&nbsp;</p><p>If you see my point, all that evades the inescapable fact that climate change will cause environmental injustice, and it is a nasty, dirty, low-down thing that nobody really wants to get into.&nbsp; Typhoons in Myanmar, tsunamis in the Indian Ocean, deforestation of the Amazon, the environmental problems of Haiti and China ... the list goes on and on.&nbsp; Our ability to really DO anything about it is rather pathetic, aside from some immediate emergency response.&nbsp; What happens is that we declare victory and the poor men, women, and children still don't have any money, homes, jobs, or anything - often they end up in refugee camps and are treated like vermin.</p><p>Do such poor, displaced people have "rights"?</p><p>Nothing is ever easy because there are cultural, political, and often religious issues that are intertwined.&nbsp; But if you subscribe to the notion that climate change will indeed force tens of thousands away from their homes, yet THEY had no part in making all those greenhouse gases, I can see a debating point - that somehow we "owe" them something.&nbsp;</p><p>In case you missed the subtext, many "deniers" simply don't want to admit any anthropogenic cause to climate change because large polluters could be exposed to legal liabilities that could amount to billions of dollars.&nbsp; Gosh, that's the same argument about why we shouldn't go after the abusers at the Abu Garhaib (sp) Prison in Iraq, or extraordinary rendition, because it could cost people millions of dollars.&nbsp;</p><p>Forgive me if I'm getting down on the efforts to promote human rights issues in the context of climate change.&nbsp; But it's a horribly dirty affair nobody really knows how to fix.&nbsp; You can't take 50 million people and say "you need to move away from the growing desert and rising seas."&nbsp; It takes M-O-N-E-Y that these poor people simply do not have.&nbsp; I wish I had some kind of advice but ... I really don't.</p>
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				<p>When somebody says "human rights" I think of poor people, discriminiation, and pollution - how pollution tends to affect more poor people who are discriminated against.&nbsp; In the parlance of US law, that's known as "environmental injustice."&nbsp;</p><p>And it is true that Climate Change, however it changes, will beyond a doubt affect many poor people as compared to the rich.&nbsp; For example, if a rich man loses a house into the ocean because of erosion and rising seas, or some other calamnity, well there's insurance and you just move on and buy something else.&nbsp; To the poor family that lives in a shack, you've lost about everything in the world and have absolutely nothing left. And nobody wants thousands of "eco-migrants" who don't have any money.</p><p>Now that's a rights issue.&nbsp;</p><p>So what I'm detecting is some of the "Smug Hippie Effect" where smart people talk about defending future generations, or people who are portrayed as being unable to speak for themselves - hey hire me, I can be your mouthpiece!&nbsp; It's a problem like Big Tobacco, let's start a tort case and file for bazillions of dollars!&nbsp;</p><p>If you see my point, all that evades the inescapable fact that climate change will cause environmental injustice, and it is a nasty, dirty, low-down thing that nobody really wants to get into.&nbsp; Typhoons in Myanmar, tsunamis in the Indian Ocean, deforestation of the Amazon, the environmental problems of Haiti and China ... the list goes on and on.&nbsp; Our ability to really DO anything about it is rather pathetic, aside from some immediate emergency response.&nbsp; What happens is that we declare victory and the poor men, women, and children still don't have any money, homes, jobs, or anything - often they end up in refugee camps and are treated like vermin.</p><p>Do such poor, displaced people have "rights"?</p><p>Nothing is ever easy because there are cultural, political, and often religious issues that are intertwined.&nbsp; But if you subscribe to the notion that climate change will indeed force tens of thousands away from their homes, yet THEY had no part in making all those greenhouse gases, I can see a debating point - that somehow we "owe" them something.&nbsp;</p><p>In case you missed the subtext, many "deniers" simply don't want to admit any anthropogenic cause to climate change because large polluters could be exposed to legal liabilities that could amount to billions of dollars.&nbsp; Gosh, that's the same argument about why we shouldn't go after the abusers at the Abu Garhaib (sp) Prison in Iraq, or extraordinary rendition, because it could cost people millions of dollars.&nbsp;</p><p>Forgive me if I'm getting down on the efforts to promote human rights issues in the context of climate change.&nbsp; But it's a horribly dirty affair nobody really knows how to fix.&nbsp; You can't take 50 million people and say "you need to move away from the growing desert and rising seas."&nbsp; It takes M-O-N-E-Y that these poor people simply do not have.&nbsp; I wish I had some kind of advice but ... I really don't.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by sindark</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 07:54:40 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p>The idea of appointing guardians is a nice one, but it overlooks the degree to which legal and political decisions largely emerge as the products of political and economic influence, neither of which is possessed by future generations, within today's political system. As such, these guardians would likely end up unpopular (for trying to block projects that would benefit those living and influential now) and powerless (for the lack of a real constituency to back them).<br /><br />My general position on human rights is that they do not have moral force in and of themselves - they are just a shorthand way of encouraging good outcomes. For instance, it is the consequences of protecting free speech that make it a moral imperative to do so, not some metaphysical characteristic embedded in human beings. As with other areas of ethical thinking, human rights can be a useful heuristic when dealing with climate change, but what really matters is developing the mechanisms of thinking and action that will prevent the worst possible outcomes, while also seeking to secure the complimentary benefits that could accompany a global transition to carbon neutrality.</p></br></br>
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				<p>The idea of appointing guardians is a nice one, but it overlooks the degree to which legal and political decisions largely emerge as the products of political and economic influence, neither of which is possessed by future generations, within today's political system. As such, these guardians would likely end up unpopular (for trying to block projects that would benefit those living and influential now) and powerless (for the lack of a real constituency to back them).<br /><br />My general position on human rights is that they do not have moral force in and of themselves - they are just a shorthand way of encouraging good outcomes. For instance, it is the consequences of protecting free speech that make it a moral imperative to do so, not some metaphysical characteristic embedded in human beings. As with other areas of ethical thinking, human rights can be a useful heuristic when dealing with climate change, but what really matters is developing the mechanisms of thinking and action that will prevent the worst possible outcomes, while also seeking to secure the complimentary benefits that could accompany a global transition to carbon neutrality.</p></br></br>
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            <title>Comment #6 by waves16</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:23:48 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/6</guid>
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				<p>It might be as effective as the UN (??????????????????!).  At least, a guardianship would put the issue of future generations on the table. <p>That being said, there are economically feasible solutions to environmental problems.  <a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Revenue-neutral taxation is essentially a free tool for the environment.  It is also scalable, enabling us to implement is progressively and would not run into many of the problems that cap-and-trade would.<p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">You can see an outline of such a strategy at <a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Cap-and-Trade Alternatives<br /><p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">,how it would work, its benefits, etc.</p></br></a></p></p></a></a></p></p>
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				<p>It might be as effective as the UN (??????????????????!).  At least, a guardianship would put the issue of future generations on the table. <p>That being said, there are economically feasible solutions to environmental problems.  <a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Revenue-neutral taxation is essentially a free tool for the environment.  It is also scalable, enabling us to implement is progressively and would not run into many of the problems that cap-and-trade would.<p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">You can see an outline of such a strategy at <a href="http://wavesofthefuture.net/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Cap-and-Trade Alternatives<br /><p style="margin-bottom: 0in; font-style: normal;" lang="en-US">,how it would work, its benefits, etc.</p></br></a></p></p></a></a></p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by dbaker</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:18:24 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-29-can-human-rights-be-guide/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hypocracy<p>It has been my unfortunate experiance, to come to the realization that the Legal community is used to oppress individuals and suppress solutions!<p>the Fossil Fuel industry employes lawyers and law firms so that they can not go against them under the <strong>conflict of interest loop hole!<p>To the best of my knowledge the entire BC law society is pro fossil fuel funded.<p>&nbsp;<p><p>Netta Manning<p>District Electoral Officer Penticton<p>Elections BC<p>80 Calgary Avenue<p>Penticton BC<p>Fax 250-487-4476 (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
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<p>Phone 250-487-4469<p>25/04/2009<p>Dennis Baker<p>103-66 duncan avenue east<p>penticton bc V2A6Z3<p>Phone and Fax 250-493-3463<p>This is a <strong>formal complaint of Election rigging by the RCMP. <p>&nbsp;<p><strong>Greater/ corroborative/ illegal details are available. The 3 days available after release on bail was insufficient to complete the prerequisites of elections bc to becoming a candidate. The present 9 pm curfew prevents me from attending election events in Vancouver, keeping this covered up.<p>This is a copy of what entered the Globe and Mail <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090423.WBcampbellblog20090423160612/WBStory/WBcampbellblog/#commentLatest" rel="nofollow">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090423.WBcampbellblog20090423160612/WBStory/WBcampbellblog/#commentLatest<p>You (dennis baker, from penticton, Canada) wrote: Voter turn out is simply a recognition that citizens feel that voting is a waste of time, as the outcomes are predetermined. I have been a Candidate in a Federal election and a municipal election, and a provincial election was in order for me.becoming a candidate&euro;<p><strong><p>From: dennis baker ((JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
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) Sent: April 15, 2009 6:50:49 AM To: (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
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 What ?where? how much?I am thinking about running as a candidate.dennis baker--<p>The response was to be arrested and charged with possession for the purpose of trafficking. For some alleged drugs in a vehicle that I was a passenger. The owner / driver was not charged. I was released after 5 days, on 500 cash bail.I am offering every media outlet to finance the POLYGRAPH which I <strong>willing submit to and then expose this to the public.Dennis Baker<p>Posted 25/04/09 at 11:32 AM EDT | <a href="http://sn103w.snt103.mail.live.com/l alertForm" rel="nofollow">Alert an Editor | <a href="http://sn103w.snt103.mail.live.com/l comment3470861" rel="nofollow">Link to Comment<p>I do know the Green Party attempted to have me arrested previously when a candidate in a Federal Election, so you might find answers with that organization.<p>ã€€<p>ã€€<p>Dennis Baker</p></p></p></p></a></a></p></strong></p></p></strong></p></p></a></p></strong></p></p></strong></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Hypocracy<p>It has been my unfortunate experiance, to come to the realization that the Legal community is used to oppress individuals and suppress solutions!<p>the Fossil Fuel industry employes lawyers and law firms so that they can not go against them under the <strong>conflict of interest loop hole!<p>To the best of my knowledge the entire BC law society is pro fossil fuel funded.<p>&nbsp;<p><p>Netta Manning<p>District Electoral Officer Penticton<p>Elections BC<p>80 Calgary Avenue<p>Penticton BC<p>Fax 250-487-4476 (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
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<p>Phone 250-487-4469<p>25/04/2009<p>Dennis Baker<p>103-66 duncan avenue east<p>penticton bc V2A6Z3<p>Phone and Fax 250-493-3463<p>This is a <strong>formal complaint of Election rigging by the RCMP. <p>&nbsp;<p><strong>Greater/ corroborative/ illegal details are available. The 3 days available after release on bail was insufficient to complete the prerequisites of elections bc to becoming a candidate. The present 9 pm curfew prevents me from attending election events in Vancouver, keeping this covered up.<p>This is a copy of what entered the Globe and Mail <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090423.WBcampbellblog20090423160612/WBStory/WBcampbellblog/#commentLatest" rel="nofollow">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090423.WBcampbellblog20090423160612/WBStory/WBcampbellblog/#commentLatest<p>You (dennis baker, from penticton, Canada) wrote: Voter turn out is simply a recognition that citizens feel that voting is a waste of time, as the outcomes are predetermined. I have been a Candidate in a Federal election and a municipal election, and a provincial election was in order for me.becoming a candidate&euro;<p><strong><p>From: dennis baker ((JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
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) Sent: April 15, 2009 6:50:49 AM To: (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
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 What ?where? how much?I am thinking about running as a candidate.dennis baker--<p>The response was to be arrested and charged with possession for the purpose of trafficking. For some alleged drugs in a vehicle that I was a passenger. The owner / driver was not charged. I was released after 5 days, on 500 cash bail.I am offering every media outlet to finance the POLYGRAPH which I <strong>willing submit to and then expose this to the public.Dennis Baker<p>Posted 25/04/09 at 11:32 AM EDT | <a href="http://sn103w.snt103.mail.live.com/l alertForm" rel="nofollow">Alert an Editor | <a href="http://sn103w.snt103.mail.live.com/l comment3470861" rel="nofollow">Link to Comment<p>I do know the Green Party attempted to have me arrested previously when a candidate in a Federal Election, so you might find answers with that organization.<p>ã€€<p>ã€€<p>Dennis Baker</p></p></p></p></a></a></p></strong></p></p></strong></p></p></a></p></strong></p></p></strong></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p></p></strong></p>
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