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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Why mandate renewables if we already have a cap on CO2?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 09:51:03 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/1</guid>
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				<p>My only disagreement with your post is the implicit assertion that an RPS leads to the lowest cost CO2 reduction.&nbsp; Properly crafted, it might - but so long as it's biased in favor of solar + wind, that's not precisely the case.&nbsp; Not to say that those don't have value in their own rights of course, just that they're far from the lowest-cost approach to CO2 reduction.</p><p>The more compelling argument for "all of the above", in my opinion is that the CO2 price is a stick and the RPS is a carrot.&nbsp; As long as we remain unable to contemplate a CO2 regulatory system that provides explicit incentives to CO2 reduction, you need a balancing carrot.&nbsp; It should, in order to be economically workable apply uniformly to all CO2 reduction measures, pro rata with their impact to work... which is far from how a current RPS is framed.&nbsp; But as long as we don't have that, we remain struck with a CO2 regulatory structure that insists upon increases in energy costs and reductions in CO2 emissions which really only guarantees the former, unless you have perfect global participation.&nbsp; (Since driving up US energy prices in the name of CO2 reduction will simply shift CO2-intensive industries overseas as long as there are overseas countries not subject to those regulations.)</p><p>That is in no way meant to suggest that such a result is an inevitability of CO2 regulation - simply that it is an inevitable result of shitty CO2 regulation.&nbsp; And so far as that's the only option on the table (sadly, that is the case today), we need something RPSish to bring lower-cost CO2 reductions on line and balance the economically disastrous consequences of shitty CO2 regs.</p>
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				<p>My only disagreement with your post is the implicit assertion that an RPS leads to the lowest cost CO2 reduction.&nbsp; Properly crafted, it might - but so long as it's biased in favor of solar + wind, that's not precisely the case.&nbsp; Not to say that those don't have value in their own rights of course, just that they're far from the lowest-cost approach to CO2 reduction.</p><p>The more compelling argument for "all of the above", in my opinion is that the CO2 price is a stick and the RPS is a carrot.&nbsp; As long as we remain unable to contemplate a CO2 regulatory system that provides explicit incentives to CO2 reduction, you need a balancing carrot.&nbsp; It should, in order to be economically workable apply uniformly to all CO2 reduction measures, pro rata with their impact to work... which is far from how a current RPS is framed.&nbsp; But as long as we don't have that, we remain struck with a CO2 regulatory structure that insists upon increases in energy costs and reductions in CO2 emissions which really only guarantees the former, unless you have perfect global participation.&nbsp; (Since driving up US energy prices in the name of CO2 reduction will simply shift CO2-intensive industries overseas as long as there are overseas countries not subject to those regulations.)</p><p>That is in no way meant to suggest that such a result is an inevitability of CO2 regulation - simply that it is an inevitable result of shitty CO2 regulation.&nbsp; And so far as that's the only option on the table (sadly, that is the case today), we need something RPSish to bring lower-cost CO2 reductions on line and balance the economically disastrous consequences of shitty CO2 regs.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by David Roberts</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 10:35:56 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/2</guid>
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				<p>Yeah, I don't mean to imply at all that an RPS, particularly the ones currently on the table, will lead to lowest cost reductions. My only point -- which I make frequently in response to libertarian types like Giberson -- is you can't argue against adding a kludge to an already highly kludged system by saying, "kludges are bad." Well, sure. But the existing system has all kinds of biases and distortions. What are you going to do about them? You can add other counter-balancing distortions. Or you can lobby to remove existing distortions. One thing you can't do, particularly under the guise of fealty to markets, is pretend that the status quo makes sense economically.</p>
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				<p>Yeah, I don't mean to imply at all that an RPS, particularly the ones currently on the table, will lead to lowest cost reductions. My only point -- which I make frequently in response to libertarian types like Giberson -- is you can't argue against adding a kludge to an already highly kludged system by saying, "kludges are bad." Well, sure. But the existing system has all kinds of biases and distortions. What are you going to do about them? You can add other counter-balancing distortions. Or you can lobby to remove existing distortions. One thing you can't do, particularly under the guise of fealty to markets, is pretend that the status quo makes sense economically.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by setb</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 12:33:05 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/3</guid>
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				<p>Nice post David.&nbsp;Question: Under a carbon cap would it be better to have a regulated or deregualted energy system?&nbsp;</p>
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				<p>Nice post David.&nbsp;Question: Under a carbon cap would it be better to have a regulated or deregualted energy system?&nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 20:10:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/4</guid>
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				<p>Why is it that people seem to think that cap-and-trade applies only to energy utilities?</p><p>We need cap-and trade to cover the industries that a renewable portfolio wouldn't cover!&nbsp; Chemical plants, manufacturing, large auto fleets owned by companies or governments, shipping, and also&nbsp;(but eventually, since legislation has currently been&nbsp;written to leave it out) agriculture.</p><p>No matter how much clean energy the utilities use, these industries would still be spewin' out GHGs.&nbsp; A cap-and-trade is needed to cover 'em.</p>
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				<p>Why is it that people seem to think that cap-and-trade applies only to energy utilities?</p><p>We need cap-and trade to cover the industries that a renewable portfolio wouldn't cover!&nbsp; Chemical plants, manufacturing, large auto fleets owned by companies or governments, shipping, and also&nbsp;(but eventually, since legislation has currently been&nbsp;written to leave it out) agriculture.</p><p>No matter how much clean energy the utilities use, these industries would still be spewin' out GHGs.&nbsp; A cap-and-trade is needed to cover 'em.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by greengoblin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 04:16:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/5</guid>
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				<p style="margin-bottom: 0pt;">I agree that current cap-and-trade legislation simply doesn't cover enough ground. Too many industries are pumping out toxins and we're focused on utilities. If you're passionate about slowing climate change, I just watched some student vids that are worth checking out:</p><p>http://www.tomorrowsworldcompetition.com/</p><p>These kids wrote scripts or sent in videos on water efficiency and climate change flooding. Hopefully in the process they'll make a lot people think about their own water efficiency and carbon footprints.</p><p>Never hurts to put your ideas out there, so let's encourage them to keep at it. Give them a view and spread the word!</p><p><br /></p></br>
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				<p style="margin-bottom: 0pt;">I agree that current cap-and-trade legislation simply doesn't cover enough ground. Too many industries are pumping out toxins and we're focused on utilities. If you're passionate about slowing climate change, I just watched some student vids that are worth checking out:</p><p>http://www.tomorrowsworldcompetition.com/</p><p>These kids wrote scripts or sent in videos on water efficiency and climate change flooding. Hopefully in the process they'll make a lot people think about their own water efficiency and carbon footprints.</p><p>Never hurts to put your ideas out there, so let's encourage them to keep at it. Give them a view and spread the word!</p><p><br /></p></br>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 05:46:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/6</guid>
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				<p>Tasermons,</p><p>That's true, but I think David's point is not that an RPS might preclude C&amp;T, but rather that a C&amp;T could preclude an RPS.&nbsp; And if we ever designed a C&amp;T properly, it would.&nbsp; So far, that doesn't seem to be in the cards.</p><p>To your point though, since an RPS only covers part of the emissions sources, and since a C&amp;T provides no explicit incentive for investments in CO2 reduction in those sectors that it does apply to, if an RPS is to be the patch to fix a C&amp;T bill, it does need to be bigger than just electric.&nbsp;</p>
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				<p>Tasermons,</p><p>That's true, but I think David's point is not that an RPS might preclude C&amp;T, but rather that a C&amp;T could preclude an RPS.&nbsp; And if we ever designed a C&amp;T properly, it would.&nbsp; So far, that doesn't seem to be in the cards.</p><p>To your point though, since an RPS only covers part of the emissions sources, and since a C&amp;T provides no explicit incentive for investments in CO2 reduction in those sectors that it does apply to, if an RPS is to be the patch to fix a C&amp;T bill, it does need to be bigger than just electric.&nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Tom A</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 11:01:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-05-07-mandate-renewables-carbon-cap/7</guid>
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				<p>Thanks for an interesting post,</p><p><br />My only comment is that your assessment of the carbon price required to make existing coal uneconomic seems very high. Most estimates I have seen are in the $50 to $100 per ton range. These are still high carbon prices, but nowhere near the $1000 you claim here. I'd be equally concerned with whether the $50 per MWh alternative complaince credit price of the current Markey Waxman RPS scheme is sufficient to push out existing coal generation.</p></br>
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				<p>Thanks for an interesting post,</p><p><br />My only comment is that your assessment of the carbon price required to make existing coal uneconomic seems very high. Most estimates I have seen are in the $50 to $100 per ton range. These are still high carbon prices, but nowhere near the $1000 you claim here. I'd be equally concerned with whether the $50 per MWh alternative complaince credit price of the current Markey Waxman RPS scheme is sufficient to push out existing coal generation.</p></br>
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