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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Ask Umbra on living off the grid]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by PermieWriter</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:18:14 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/1</guid>
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				<p>I'm surprised at how much traction the off-the-grid thing has. Being off the electrical grid means you have to invest in a lot of batteries or resign yourself to not having electricity when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing. You don't get to use the grid as a battery, which means that if you produce any more juice than you can use or store, it goes to waste.</p><p>Instead of going off the grid, I think it's more positive to think of how much you can give back to the systems on which we all depend. That means using electricity during off-peak hours, growing food and giving it away or trading it, being a part of your communities rather than pulling back into some sort of imagined self-sufficiency. You'll do more good in the long run.</p>
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				<p>I'm surprised at how much traction the off-the-grid thing has. Being off the electrical grid means you have to invest in a lot of batteries or resign yourself to not having electricity when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing. You don't get to use the grid as a battery, which means that if you produce any more juice than you can use or store, it goes to waste.</p><p>Instead of going off the grid, I think it's more positive to think of how much you can give back to the systems on which we all depend. That means using electricity during off-peak hours, growing food and giving it away or trading it, being a part of your communities rather than pulling back into some sort of imagined self-sufficiency. You'll do more good in the long run.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by JoRa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:19:53 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/2</guid>
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				<p>My husband and I are putting solar on the house and NYSERDA (New York State Energy and Research Development Authority) is paying for 45% of it because we will be on the grid.&nbsp; I don't know if the tax credits are also require your panels to be tied to the grid.&nbsp; We would not have been able to afford this without the incentives, and we like the idea of being able to contibute energy into the system.</p>
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				<p>My husband and I are putting solar on the house and NYSERDA (New York State Energy and Research Development Authority) is paying for 45% of it because we will be on the grid.&nbsp; I don't know if the tax credits are also require your panels to be tied to the grid.&nbsp; We would not have been able to afford this without the incentives, and we like the idea of being able to contibute energy into the system.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by solarkismet</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:52:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/3</guid>
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				<p>You can't talk about being off-grid without referencing <a href="http://www.homepower.com" rel="nofollow">Home Power Magazine.</a></p>
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				<p>You can't talk about being off-grid without referencing <a href="http://www.homepower.com" rel="nofollow">Home Power Magazine.</a></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by JoyS</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:40:39 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/4</guid>
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				<p>On or off grid, keep track of new ways to reduce energy usage.  Off grid, this means fewer  panels, a smaller turbine, and less battery arrays needed, as well as much lower usage of non-alternative fuels (propane stove or generator) if your alternative sources have problems.  I just found that my local ACE hardware is selling LED lights for $10--these use 1.5 watts and are 40 Watt replacement lights, in "cool white" and "warm white."  A year ago, roughly similar bulbs were setting me back $20 to $30 + S&amp;H from online sites.  (The equivalent wattage for compact fluorescent is 9 Watts.)  I'm considering running a split system.  I already have grid-interconnected solar with an inverter, and I'm going to switch in a bunch of LED lights on that.  I'll also look for new, cheaper LED lights (or more expensive made-in-USA lights--so far, they've all been Made in China) suitable for a 12 Volt CD system.  If I find them, I might DIY a 6th solar panel without a grid interconnect, and a small battery, and use that to stick in a few more lights where they'd be convenient, but not so easy to hook into the current wiring.  (The house dates to 1900, and some of it is still knob-and-tube with dial switches.  So the less current I'm drawing, the better I like it.)</p>
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				<p>On or off grid, keep track of new ways to reduce energy usage.  Off grid, this means fewer  panels, a smaller turbine, and less battery arrays needed, as well as much lower usage of non-alternative fuels (propane stove or generator) if your alternative sources have problems.  I just found that my local ACE hardware is selling LED lights for $10--these use 1.5 watts and are 40 Watt replacement lights, in "cool white" and "warm white."  A year ago, roughly similar bulbs were setting me back $20 to $30 + S&amp;H from online sites.  (The equivalent wattage for compact fluorescent is 9 Watts.)  I'm considering running a split system.  I already have grid-interconnected solar with an inverter, and I'm going to switch in a bunch of LED lights on that.  I'll also look for new, cheaper LED lights (or more expensive made-in-USA lights--so far, they've all been Made in China) suitable for a 12 Volt CD system.  If I find them, I might DIY a 6th solar panel without a grid interconnect, and a small battery, and use that to stick in a few more lights where they'd be convenient, but not so easy to hook into the current wiring.  (The house dates to 1900, and some of it is still knob-and-tube with dial switches.  So the less current I'm drawing, the better I like it.)</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:40:54 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/5</guid>
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				<p>Also be sure to contact your local Green Building Council.&nbsp; Usually they'll have at least a few members who either live off-grid, or know how to go 'bout it and can provide great products, service, and advice to help people who wish to do it.</p><p>Some people can also be hooked into the grid, but produce enough energy at certain times of the day that they use more than they need, and send power back into the grid.&nbsp; Thus, they actually produce more energy than they use.</p><p>Under law, utility companies must purchase the electricity that gets put into the grid.&nbsp; Produce enough excess energy, and it can add up.&nbsp; There are some people in Houston who make enough off their solar panels that they get $200-$300 a month from the utilities.&nbsp; Their electric bills actually have little negative signs in front of the amount to show that the utility owes THEM money, and not the other way 'round.</p>
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				<p>Also be sure to contact your local Green Building Council.&nbsp; Usually they'll have at least a few members who either live off-grid, or know how to go 'bout it and can provide great products, service, and advice to help people who wish to do it.</p><p>Some people can also be hooked into the grid, but produce enough energy at certain times of the day that they use more than they need, and send power back into the grid.&nbsp; Thus, they actually produce more energy than they use.</p><p>Under law, utility companies must purchase the electricity that gets put into the grid.&nbsp; Produce enough excess energy, and it can add up.&nbsp; There are some people in Houston who make enough off their solar panels that they get $200-$300 a month from the utilities.&nbsp; Their electric bills actually have little negative signs in front of the amount to show that the utility owes THEM money, and not the other way 'round.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by enviroperk</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:46:52 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/6</guid>
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				<p>Wow that is incredible given only 5 productive hours of sunshine a day on average. How big of a system do they have?</p>
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				<p>Wow that is incredible given only 5 productive hours of sunshine a day on average. How big of a system do they have?</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by enviroperk</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:07:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/7</guid>
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				<p>I agree, the real secret&nbsp; is savings by lowering energy usage. I found that something like<a href="http://www.theenergydetective.com" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"> <a href="http://www.theenergydetective.com" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.theenergydetective.com&nbsp; at about $150. really helps me figure out where the energy is going, peak usage etc.<p>Also, if you have grid access and use a grid-tie system, you can view the grid as a FREE large battery array, and large battery arrays are very expensive and less than environmentally friendly. You are selling back to the grid excess energy you produce during the sunny days yet can pull from the grid energy needed at night or on cloudy days . If your system is sized to match your usage, it still provides the environmental effect of being "off-grid". An environmental bonus to grid-tie solar use is due to the fact that much base load power produced at night by coal burning plants is otherwise wasted.<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;</p></p></p></p></a></a></p>
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				<p>I agree, the real secret&nbsp; is savings by lowering energy usage. I found that something like<a href="http://www.theenergydetective.com" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"> <a href="http://www.theenergydetective.com" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.theenergydetective.com&nbsp; at about $150. really helps me figure out where the energy is going, peak usage etc.<p>Also, if you have grid access and use a grid-tie system, you can view the grid as a FREE large battery array, and large battery arrays are very expensive and less than environmentally friendly. You are selling back to the grid excess energy you produce during the sunny days yet can pull from the grid energy needed at night or on cloudy days . If your system is sized to match your usage, it still provides the environmental effect of being "off-grid". An environmental bonus to grid-tie solar use is due to the fact that much base load power produced at night by coal burning plants is otherwise wasted.<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;<p>&nbsp;</p></p></p></p></a></a></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by human power</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:53:13 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/8</guid>
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				<p>While going off the grid, don't forget to get off the pipeline too. Electrical generation may be our number one GHG problem, but transportation is number 2, and in Oregon, transprotation is number 1.</p><p>Also, when sizing your system, don't be alarmed at the prospect of cooler indoor winter temperatures. Lower room temperatures will lead to brown-fat led metabolic heat generation. All that green and a leaner body to boot.</p>
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				<p>While going off the grid, don't forget to get off the pipeline too. Electrical generation may be our number one GHG problem, but transportation is number 2, and in Oregon, transprotation is number 1.</p><p>Also, when sizing your system, don't be alarmed at the prospect of cooler indoor winter temperatures. Lower room temperatures will lead to brown-fat led metabolic heat generation. All that green and a leaner body to boot.</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by canuck64</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:35:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/9</guid>
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				<p>When talking off-grid, or producing power to send back into the grid, people hardly ever mention geothermal generated electricity.  I know of people on the prairies, and in Ontario, who are able to sell their power back to the hydro company from geothermal heatpumps.  The climate is more extreme there, and makes installing geothermal heatpumps more economically worthwhile, but in more temperate climates I believe air-to-air heat pumps are a viable alternative.  What do you think?</p>
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				<p>When talking off-grid, or producing power to send back into the grid, people hardly ever mention geothermal generated electricity.  I know of people on the prairies, and in Ontario, who are able to sell their power back to the hydro company from geothermal heatpumps.  The climate is more extreme there, and makes installing geothermal heatpumps more economically worthwhile, but in more temperate climates I believe air-to-air heat pumps are a viable alternative.  What do you think?</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:35:13 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/10</guid>
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				<p>Not very large at all, though they usually take up the vast majority of the roof.&nbsp; But then again, their homes aren't very large either, all under 1,500 square feet, I believe (the ones I know of).&nbsp; I also know of one that's entirely solar powered that's actually made outta old cargo containers.</p><p>And this is in Houston.&nbsp; We get WAY more than 5 hours of productive sun, even in the winter.</p><p>I also know of several homes that have small wind turbines as well, and my old old office had both wind and solar power.</p>
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				<p>Not very large at all, though they usually take up the vast majority of the roof.&nbsp; But then again, their homes aren't very large either, all under 1,500 square feet, I believe (the ones I know of).&nbsp; I also know of one that's entirely solar powered that's actually made outta old cargo containers.</p><p>And this is in Houston.&nbsp; We get WAY more than 5 hours of productive sun, even in the winter.</p><p>I also know of several homes that have small wind turbines as well, and my old old office had both wind and solar power.</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by sealrocker</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 23:49:43 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/11</guid>
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				<p>A moment with a calculator will show the fallacy of the $200-300/month net. The average solar array on a us roof is 2 kw. That means for every hour of full sun about 2 kilowatts is produced. Suppose Houston actually experiences more useful solar hours / day than the rest of us and gets 8 hours of production- just for arguments sake.. That would be a total of 16 kwh produced (assuming no losses due to overheating and conversion). Lets assume you pay and get paid $0.10/kwh - that is $1.60/ day payback if you do not use any electricity yourself x 30 days ( I know - the months are longer in texas too!). SO, all things considered, you would not get $50 / month back even if you figured out how to not use any kwh yourself. The average american household uses 30 kwh / day! Which means you will not be getting any checks back from your utility...</p>
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				<p>A moment with a calculator will show the fallacy of the $200-300/month net. The average solar array on a us roof is 2 kw. That means for every hour of full sun about 2 kilowatts is produced. Suppose Houston actually experiences more useful solar hours / day than the rest of us and gets 8 hours of production- just for arguments sake.. That would be a total of 16 kwh produced (assuming no losses due to overheating and conversion). Lets assume you pay and get paid $0.10/kwh - that is $1.60/ day payback if you do not use any electricity yourself x 30 days ( I know - the months are longer in texas too!). SO, all things considered, you would not get $50 / month back even if you figured out how to not use any kwh yourself. The average american household uses 30 kwh / day! Which means you will not be getting any checks back from your utility...</p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by sealrocker</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 00:05:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/12</guid>
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				<p>Hi Anica, I am an "off-gridder" living about 50 miles west of you. I use passive solar home design, 1kw of solar PV, a 1kw wind turbine and a small micro hydro turbine seasonally, plus solar hot water and a big battery to keep my place going. My wife and I hand built our very small home of cob and salvaged materials and it is the most comfortable home I have lived in.  Some people that live off grid are a bit secretive because some of the things they are doing are not allowed by the building/planning department... To find out more about self reliance, take a permaculture course, or go to energy fairs like the Solwest fair in July in John day. SolWest.org is the site and you will learn a lot and see a lot. Home Power magazine was mentioned by someone else and it is an excellent resource. When we speak of "off grid" most people think of the electrical grid but there are many "grids" such as petroleum, financial, water, food, wastewater, employment, etc.There are a lot of ways to make a difference. Getting off the electrical grid can be pretty expensive- if you wish to maintain the same level of convenience. It can be very cheap if you are ready to step back to a simpler lifestyle.</p>
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				<p>Hi Anica, I am an "off-gridder" living about 50 miles west of you. I use passive solar home design, 1kw of solar PV, a 1kw wind turbine and a small micro hydro turbine seasonally, plus solar hot water and a big battery to keep my place going. My wife and I hand built our very small home of cob and salvaged materials and it is the most comfortable home I have lived in.  Some people that live off grid are a bit secretive because some of the things they are doing are not allowed by the building/planning department... To find out more about self reliance, take a permaculture course, or go to energy fairs like the Solwest fair in July in John day. SolWest.org is the site and you will learn a lot and see a lot. Home Power magazine was mentioned by someone else and it is an excellent resource. When we speak of "off grid" most people think of the electrical grid but there are many "grids" such as petroleum, financial, water, food, wastewater, employment, etc.There are a lot of ways to make a difference. Getting off the electrical grid can be pretty expensive- if you wish to maintain the same level of convenience. It can be very cheap if you are ready to step back to a simpler lifestyle.</p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by anneerickson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 06:41:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/13</guid>
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				<p>If any Canadians are reading this thread, check out bullfrogpower.com to see if you can subscribe in your region. Bullfrog Power allows you to buy off-the-grid power from renewable sources through your local electricity supplier. Only cost a few cents more per kwh--no home conversions necessary!</p>
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				<p>If any Canadians are reading this thread, check out bullfrogpower.com to see if you can subscribe in your region. Bullfrog Power allows you to buy off-the-grid power from renewable sources through your local electricity supplier. Only cost a few cents more per kwh--no home conversions necessary!</p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 08:18:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/14</guid>
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				<p>First, your assumption was that the solar arrays were of average size.&nbsp; I'll admit I don't know what size they are, since I haven't asked some of them, and others (whom I did ask)&nbsp;I can't remember off the top of my head, but as I said, they do take up the vast majority of the roof space, so it may larger than average.&nbsp; I do remeber however, that they were phv panels, and that their efficiency was on the high side.</p><p>Second, I don't know what the rate is that the utility is paying them back for the energy.&nbsp; I kinda wonder where you got the 10 cents for kwh figure from?&nbsp; Did you just make that up, or was it based on rates in your region?</p><p>Third, you also stated that the average home is 30 kwh per day.&nbsp; I already said that the homes were NOT average.&nbsp; They were, in fact, quite small (as I already said), and most had taken steps to improve efficiency beyond what an average home does.</p><p>Third, if you would like more proof, the local stations also did news stories in which several of the owners (including the cargo container residence) reported the amounts (and showed their bills to prove it), several months ago.&nbsp; I remember in particular the local ABC (channel 13), CBS (channel 11), and PBS (channel 8) stations did news reports on it.&nbsp; They also reported that the container house was applying for LEED certification, but I don't know if they ever got it.</p><p>However, I don't know how much all of them paid to have the panels installed (though I do know that one of them spent well over $50,000), so even though they are makin' money from it on a month-by-month basis, the total rate of return could be quite small, in terms of money spent.</p>
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				<p>First, your assumption was that the solar arrays were of average size.&nbsp; I'll admit I don't know what size they are, since I haven't asked some of them, and others (whom I did ask)&nbsp;I can't remember off the top of my head, but as I said, they do take up the vast majority of the roof space, so it may larger than average.&nbsp; I do remeber however, that they were phv panels, and that their efficiency was on the high side.</p><p>Second, I don't know what the rate is that the utility is paying them back for the energy.&nbsp; I kinda wonder where you got the 10 cents for kwh figure from?&nbsp; Did you just make that up, or was it based on rates in your region?</p><p>Third, you also stated that the average home is 30 kwh per day.&nbsp; I already said that the homes were NOT average.&nbsp; They were, in fact, quite small (as I already said), and most had taken steps to improve efficiency beyond what an average home does.</p><p>Third, if you would like more proof, the local stations also did news stories in which several of the owners (including the cargo container residence) reported the amounts (and showed their bills to prove it), several months ago.&nbsp; I remember in particular the local ABC (channel 13), CBS (channel 11), and PBS (channel 8) stations did news reports on it.&nbsp; They also reported that the container house was applying for LEED certification, but I don't know if they ever got it.</p><p>However, I don't know how much all of them paid to have the panels installed (though I do know that one of them spent well over $50,000), so even though they are makin' money from it on a month-by-month basis, the total rate of return could be quite small, in terms of money spent.</p>
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            <title>Comment #15 by JoyS</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 10:30:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/15</guid>
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				<p>Several fallacies in this calculation. </p><p>1) Productive hours. I actually live in Pittsburgh.  I generally get more than 5 productive hours in the dead of winter, even when it is snowy, cloudy, or raining moderately or lightly.  I have a tiny 5 panel / 0.875 kW system.  From Jan 1 to 5 minutes ago on May 1, they've produced 490 kwh. &nbsp;This month (ending April 20), I broke even for the month.  Many days, the panels were producing for 12 hours or more, and we're only 10 days past the equinox.  I expect to be ahead in May, June and July. I suspect you are talking about "hours over a particular threshold" or "hours producing at peak capacity."  That's a lower number, naturally. </p><p>2) array size. I fit 5 panels on a bit of flat roof over 1 small bathroom on a low budget. Plenty of people could put on 30 panels or more, and some probably have 40 or 50.  So lets re-think your calculation.  If the average person has about 2 kw of production, figure that the low end is probably well-represented by older arrays or smaller arrays in the 0.5 to 1 kw range, like mine.  That leaves plenty of room in the "average" for some 5 to 10 kW systems. If a system like that got the same rather weak winter performance as Pittsburgh, they'd have made 2,800 to 5,600 kwh in the last 4 months--again, that's mostly the unproductive, cloudy, short day length winter months.  I expect to get double that, roughly, in the most productive 4 summer months.  (That's when it is needed, when kids are home, demand for cooling is high, and I instead have the sense to open the door from the basement to the hallway, and the north window into the basement, and get cool air that way).  A 5-10 kW array here might be making 5,600 to 11,200 kwh in those months.  At 10 cents a kwh, that's $560 to $1120 for those 4 months.  Divide by 4 to get as much as $252 a  month, for total generation.  Admittedly that does not include use.  Which takes us to the final false assumption: </p><p>3) most people who bother to put in a huge bank of panels will first no doubt reduce their own use to a modest fraction of the national average.  If I can come out ahead in summer with my measly 0.875 watt system &#40;in an area that has more haze than TX and enough rain that I don't have to water my yard&#41; then someone who's using a 5 or 10 kW array may very well use as little as, say, 5 or 10 percent of what they are generating.  So even if the buy-back is at cost (as per your assumption) $200 a month strikes me as quite possible.  Also, I believe the efficiency is higher on the inverter for a larger system &#40;could be wrong&#41; which would improve those numbers, relative to mine.  Finally, in many areas, power companies both charge and pay a premium for "green energy."  If your company does this, you might either pay (or get!)  25 cents, 50 cents or more per kWh, rather than 10 cents. </p>
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				<p>Several fallacies in this calculation. </p><p>1) Productive hours. I actually live in Pittsburgh.  I generally get more than 5 productive hours in the dead of winter, even when it is snowy, cloudy, or raining moderately or lightly.  I have a tiny 5 panel / 0.875 kW system.  From Jan 1 to 5 minutes ago on May 1, they've produced 490 kwh. &nbsp;This month (ending April 20), I broke even for the month.  Many days, the panels were producing for 12 hours or more, and we're only 10 days past the equinox.  I expect to be ahead in May, June and July. I suspect you are talking about "hours over a particular threshold" or "hours producing at peak capacity."  That's a lower number, naturally. </p><p>2) array size. I fit 5 panels on a bit of flat roof over 1 small bathroom on a low budget. Plenty of people could put on 30 panels or more, and some probably have 40 or 50.  So lets re-think your calculation.  If the average person has about 2 kw of production, figure that the low end is probably well-represented by older arrays or smaller arrays in the 0.5 to 1 kw range, like mine.  That leaves plenty of room in the "average" for some 5 to 10 kW systems. If a system like that got the same rather weak winter performance as Pittsburgh, they'd have made 2,800 to 5,600 kwh in the last 4 months--again, that's mostly the unproductive, cloudy, short day length winter months.  I expect to get double that, roughly, in the most productive 4 summer months.  (That's when it is needed, when kids are home, demand for cooling is high, and I instead have the sense to open the door from the basement to the hallway, and the north window into the basement, and get cool air that way).  A 5-10 kW array here might be making 5,600 to 11,200 kwh in those months.  At 10 cents a kwh, that's $560 to $1120 for those 4 months.  Divide by 4 to get as much as $252 a  month, for total generation.  Admittedly that does not include use.  Which takes us to the final false assumption: </p><p>3) most people who bother to put in a huge bank of panels will first no doubt reduce their own use to a modest fraction of the national average.  If I can come out ahead in summer with my measly 0.875 watt system &#40;in an area that has more haze than TX and enough rain that I don't have to water my yard&#41; then someone who's using a 5 or 10 kW array may very well use as little as, say, 5 or 10 percent of what they are generating.  So even if the buy-back is at cost (as per your assumption) $200 a month strikes me as quite possible.  Also, I believe the efficiency is higher on the inverter for a larger system &#40;could be wrong&#41; which would improve those numbers, relative to mine.  Finally, in many areas, power companies both charge and pay a premium for "green energy."  If your company does this, you might either pay (or get!)  25 cents, 50 cents or more per kWh, rather than 10 cents. </p>
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            <title>Comment #16 by spaceshaper</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 16:26:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/16</guid>
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				Canuck64 is confusing two very different processes here. Geothermal power generation uses extremely hot rock far below the surface to heat water to power turbines which generate electricity. It is a large-scale industrial process not available to residential users. Geothermal heat pumps, more properly called ground-source heat pumps, use the heat capacitance of much shallower strata at ambient temperatures of 50° - 60° as an energy sink to heat and cool a home. Ground-source or geothermal heat pumps do not produce electricity, they consume it. Air source heat pumps can function reasonably well at ambient atmospheric temperatures above about 35°: ground or water source systems will always be more efficient, though are usually significantly more expensive to install.
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				Canuck64 is confusing two very different processes here. Geothermal power generation uses extremely hot rock far below the surface to heat water to power turbines which generate electricity. It is a large-scale industrial process not available to residential users. Geothermal heat pumps, more properly called ground-source heat pumps, use the heat capacitance of much shallower strata at ambient temperatures of 50° - 60° as an energy sink to heat and cool a home. Ground-source or geothermal heat pumps do not produce electricity, they consume it. Air source heat pumps can function reasonably well at ambient atmospheric temperatures above about 35°: ground or water source systems will always be more efficient, though are usually significantly more expensive to install.
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            <title>Comment #17 by ourearthmusic</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 00:44:41 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-umbra-on-living-off-the-grid/17</guid>
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				<p>I suggest the documentary, Garbage Warrior, about sustainable architect Michael Reynolds. He has built many houses off the grid in Northen New Mexico (near Taos) over many decades. This is the movie description from Amazon.com:</p><p>Garbage Warrior is a feature-length documentary film telling the epic
story of maverick US architect Michael Reynolds and his fight to
introduce <strong>radically sustainable housing</strong>. An extraordinary tale of
triumph over bureaucracy, Garbage Warrior is above all an intimate
portrait of an extraordinary individual and his dream of changing the
world</p><p><br />Reynolds believes that we need to be able to experiment with new types of housing, and this effort is hamstrung by very complex housing codes.</p></br>
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				<p>I suggest the documentary, Garbage Warrior, about sustainable architect Michael Reynolds. He has built many houses off the grid in Northen New Mexico (near Taos) over many decades. This is the movie description from Amazon.com:</p><p>Garbage Warrior is a feature-length documentary film telling the epic
story of maverick US architect Michael Reynolds and his fight to
introduce <strong>radically sustainable housing</strong>. An extraordinary tale of
triumph over bureaucracy, Garbage Warrior is above all an intimate
portrait of an extraordinary individual and his dream of changing the
world</p><p><br />Reynolds believes that we need to be able to experiment with new types of housing, and this effort is hamstrung by very complex housing codes.</p></br>
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