<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Symptom: swine flu. Diagnosis: industrial agriculture?]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by racje http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:47:18 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/1 These are interesting speculations and connections, especially the immunocompromised hogs in confinement. I'd like to know if there are published science articles pointing to a connection between virus mutation and immunocompromised farm animals.

]]> These are interesting speculations and connections, especially the immunocompromised hogs in confinement. I'd like to know if there are published science articles pointing to a connection between virus mutation and immunocompromised farm animals.

]]> Comment #2 by El Dragón http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:32:16 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/2 Nice work, Tom. This is much harder to refute, so thank you. :)

The "fly paper" is interesting. I've read evidence of flies carrying bird-to-bird avian flu (like the notorious H5N1) but not as carriers of swine flu or human-to-human flu. That's where I remain stuck, and I think you remain stuck there, too. So while I learned something here, I don't think we have a direct trail from the manure-lagoon to La Gloria or to Oaxaca where the other earliest patient lived:

http://www.fairfoodfight.com/blog/el-dragón/earliest-known-mexican-patient-lived-no-where-near-smithfield-cafo

But is the Smithfield CAFO worth investigating? I think you've made a great argument that it certainly is.

If the CAFO is ground zero for Mexico, my money is on infected pigs being shipped in from a Chinese or European operation -- fragments of H1N1's DNA have been spotted in those areas before.

If it's not the CAFO, I'm thinking that what we really have in Mexico is a double outbreak, with H1N1 in one corner, and flu-like respiratory disorders spreading from the Smithfield feedlot in the other,

 

]]> Nice work, Tom. This is much harder to refute, so thank you. :)

The "fly paper" is interesting. I've read evidence of flies carrying bird-to-bird avian flu (like the notorious H5N1) but not as carriers of swine flu or human-to-human flu. That's where I remain stuck, and I think you remain stuck there, too. So while I learned something here, I don't think we have a direct trail from the manure-lagoon to La Gloria or to Oaxaca where the other earliest patient lived:

http://www.fairfoodfight.com/blog/el-dragón/earliest-known-mexican-patient-lived-no-where-near-smithfield-cafo

But is the Smithfield CAFO worth investigating? I think you've made a great argument that it certainly is.

If the CAFO is ground zero for Mexico, my money is on infected pigs being shipped in from a Chinese or European operation -- fragments of H1N1's DNA have been spotted in those areas before.

If it's not the CAFO, I'm thinking that what we really have in Mexico is a double outbreak, with H1N1 in one corner, and flu-like respiratory disorders spreading from the Smithfield feedlot in the other,

 

]]> Comment #3 by Lifeforce http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:37:46 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/3 Comment #4 by countryswing http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:26:22 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/4 Tom, how do you jump to the conclusion that industrial agriculture is causing this?  You re-hash old arguements at tedious length, but in the end you are taking it on faith that this must have come from a CAFO.  If I say "the devil is responsible" you would rightly laugh me out of the room.  But Smithfield CAFO's are your devil and your opinion is "faith based".  Let's keep science separate from faith. 

Cheers.

]]> Tom, how do you jump to the conclusion that industrial agriculture is causing this?  You re-hash old arguements at tedious length, but in the end you are taking it on faith that this must have come from a CAFO.  If I say "the devil is responsible" you would rightly laugh me out of the room.  But Smithfield CAFO's are your devil and your opinion is "faith based".  Let's keep science separate from faith. 

Cheers.

]]> Comment #5 by samlaunch http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 05:27:39 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/5 Thank You Tom. First of all, I had no idea that flies can carry the disease and secondly, you took the time to enlighten the unsuspecting populace. It's hard to find people of your ilk in today's 'don't tell the truth or we'll throw you in jail' era. I've seen that this strain of flu that they are calling swine has not been found in pigs. They should check the flies for vectoring their murderous skills into the unsuspecting communities. Here is an excerpt from natural news: "According to reports in the mainstream media (which has no reason to lie about this particular detail), this strain of influenza contains viral code fragments from:
• Human influenza
• Bird Flu from North America
• Swine flu from Europe
• Swine flu from Asia
This is rather astonishing to realize, because for this to have been a natural combination of viral fragments, it means an infected bird from North America would have had to infect pigs in Europe, then be re-infected by those some pigs with an unlikely cross-species mutation that allowed the bird to carry it again, then that bird would have had to fly to Asia and infected pigs there, and those Asian pigs then mutated the virus once again (while preserving the European swine and bird flu elements) to become human transmittable, and then a human would have had to catch that virus from the Asian pigs -- in Mexico! -- and spread it to others. (This isn't the only explanation of how it could have happened, but it is one scenario that gives you an idea of the complexity of such a thing happening)."






]]> Thank You Tom. First of all, I had no idea that flies can carry the disease and secondly, you took the time to enlighten the unsuspecting populace. It's hard to find people of your ilk in today's 'don't tell the truth or we'll throw you in jail' era. I've seen that this strain of flu that they are calling swine has not been found in pigs. They should check the flies for vectoring their murderous skills into the unsuspecting communities. Here is an excerpt from natural news: "According to reports in the mainstream media (which has no reason to lie about this particular detail), this strain of influenza contains viral code fragments from:
• Human influenza
• Bird Flu from North America
• Swine flu from Europe
• Swine flu from Asia
This is rather astonishing to realize, because for this to have been a natural combination of viral fragments, it means an infected bird from North America would have had to infect pigs in Europe, then be re-infected by those some pigs with an unlikely cross-species mutation that allowed the bird to carry it again, then that bird would have had to fly to Asia and infected pigs there, and those Asian pigs then mutated the virus once again (while preserving the European swine and bird flu elements) to become human transmittable, and then a human would have had to catch that virus from the Asian pigs -- in Mexico! -- and spread it to others. (This isn't the only explanation of how it could have happened, but it is one scenario that gives you an idea of the complexity of such a thing happening)."






]]> Comment #6 by lindaamick http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:27:29 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/6 In Feb, 2009 the Czech press published an article that Baxter International had shipped virus to a lab in Austria.  It turned out that the virus was live as it killed Ferrets after injection.  In March, 2009 the Toronto Sun reported that Baxter had sent this "live" virus to 18 countries around the world.  Baxter claimed it was a mistake that they had mixed a live avian virus with an H5N1 virus. 

Now the US press is reporting that Baxter may get the go-ahead to develop a vaccine for the current strain of Swine flu.

 

]]> In Feb, 2009 the Czech press published an article that Baxter International had shipped virus to a lab in Austria.  It turned out that the virus was live as it killed Ferrets after injection.  In March, 2009 the Toronto Sun reported that Baxter had sent this "live" virus to 18 countries around the world.  Baxter claimed it was a mistake that they had mixed a live avian virus with an H5N1 virus. 

Now the US press is reporting that Baxter may get the go-ahead to develop a vaccine for the current strain of Swine flu.

 

]]> Comment #7 by CowsEatGrass http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:43:23 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/7 There is no such conclusion in this article.  It is a set of facts and ideas that paints a vivid picture of how such a thing might happen, but the strongest statement does not assign blame, it simply urges further investigation of this possible link.  I think it presents a compelling argument to do just that.  The conclusions can be left to the epidemiologists.

]]> There is no such conclusion in this article.  It is a set of facts and ideas that paints a vivid picture of how such a thing might happen, but the strongest statement does not assign blame, it simply urges further investigation of this possible link.  I think it presents a compelling argument to do just that.  The conclusions can be left to the epidemiologists.

]]> Comment #8 by samlaunch http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:59:25 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/8 Just the facts. If you have viral code fragments from the four, ask yourself something else besides, "Do you feel lucky? Well do ya'?" You have to ask, "Who or what government combined these ingredients into a deadly mixture and what happened to those murdered microbiologists. Could they have spilled the beans on what their colleagues were planning? What America suffers from is a fear of what they know to be true. The lies that government tells us is the truth such as in the numbers of employment, unemployment, GDP, inflation and just about any other number that arrives out of the BLS. If they lie about that, what else will they lie about? Of course, just about anything they're asked. Except the part where someone asks, "State your name for the record...":

On November 16, 2001, Dr. Don C. Wiley, 57, vanished, and his abandoned rental car was found on the Hernando de Soto Bridge outside Memphis, TN.

On December 10, 2001, Dr. David Schwartz, 57, was found murdered in his rural home in Loudon County, Virginia.

On December 12, 2001, Dr. Benito Que was found comatose in the street near the laboratory where he worked at the University of Miami Medical School.

On December 14, 2001, Set Van Nguyen was found dead in the airlock entrance to the walk-in refrigerator in the laboratory he worked at in Victoria State, Australia.

And on December 23, 2001, Dr. Vladimir Pasechnik, 64, was found dead in Wiltshire, England, a village near his home.

You can believe the government stats and whatever else they tell you. I choose to do my own reading and research, just the facts, maam. This list of murdered microbiologists is very big, you should do a Google search for dead scientists. I know the government has their own set of liars on chat boards and they even re-work information on Google and Wikipedia to suit their needs such as in the case of Martin Armstrong (he's been in prison, beaten and held without a trial). If you're a Christian, you had better bet that there's a target on your back. For one thing, your morals tell you they're lying and they know that you know they're lying like a rug.



]]> Just the facts. If you have viral code fragments from the four, ask yourself something else besides, "Do you feel lucky? Well do ya'?" You have to ask, "Who or what government combined these ingredients into a deadly mixture and what happened to those murdered microbiologists. Could they have spilled the beans on what their colleagues were planning? What America suffers from is a fear of what they know to be true. The lies that government tells us is the truth such as in the numbers of employment, unemployment, GDP, inflation and just about any other number that arrives out of the BLS. If they lie about that, what else will they lie about? Of course, just about anything they're asked. Except the part where someone asks, "State your name for the record...":

On November 16, 2001, Dr. Don C. Wiley, 57, vanished, and his abandoned rental car was found on the Hernando de Soto Bridge outside Memphis, TN.

On December 10, 2001, Dr. David Schwartz, 57, was found murdered in his rural home in Loudon County, Virginia.

On December 12, 2001, Dr. Benito Que was found comatose in the street near the laboratory where he worked at the University of Miami Medical School.

On December 14, 2001, Set Van Nguyen was found dead in the airlock entrance to the walk-in refrigerator in the laboratory he worked at in Victoria State, Australia.

And on December 23, 2001, Dr. Vladimir Pasechnik, 64, was found dead in Wiltshire, England, a village near his home.

You can believe the government stats and whatever else they tell you. I choose to do my own reading and research, just the facts, maam. This list of murdered microbiologists is very big, you should do a Google search for dead scientists. I know the government has their own set of liars on chat boards and they even re-work information on Google and Wikipedia to suit their needs such as in the case of Martin Armstrong (he's been in prison, beaten and held without a trial). If you're a Christian, you had better bet that there's a target on your back. For one thing, your morals tell you they're lying and they know that you know they're lying like a rug.



]]> Comment #9 by racje http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:57:52 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/9 Thankes, Lifeforce. The first two references you cite do refer to influenza virus being carried by flies; the others are all about bacteria, which do not carry influenza.

]]> Thankes, Lifeforce. The first two references you cite do refer to influenza virus being carried by flies; the others are all about bacteria, which do not carry influenza.

]]> Comment #10 by Eric http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:21:46 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/10 This is a terrific post, and great job getting the information out there early.  There is quite a substantial body of evidence linking Confined Animal Feeding Operations (CAFOs) with virulent disease.  These sites are basically incubators with the ideal conditions for new mutant disease variants to spread: immune-inhibited animals, close proximity to additional hosts, policies that ensure animal feces is widely dispersed to infect these hosts, pits of contagion perfect as a breeding ground for the new disease and clear evidence of ground water contagion that allow the mutant variants access to human populations (if they didn't first affect CAFO employees). 

I encourage your readers to look at the list of publications cited at Nature Network (part of the science journal Nature's online community).  See the article Priming the Pump of a Swine Flu Pandemic for a detailed analysis of the current situation.  Whether or not Smithfield's Mexican subsidiary is the source of this current outbreak (and there's good reason to suspect they are) we are creating the conditions for a new era of global pandemics.  Avian flu and swine flu have only killed a few hundred people so far.  We may not be so lucky in the future.

]]> This is a terrific post, and great job getting the information out there early.  There is quite a substantial body of evidence linking Confined Animal Feeding Operations (CAFOs) with virulent disease.  These sites are basically incubators with the ideal conditions for new mutant disease variants to spread: immune-inhibited animals, close proximity to additional hosts, policies that ensure animal feces is widely dispersed to infect these hosts, pits of contagion perfect as a breeding ground for the new disease and clear evidence of ground water contagion that allow the mutant variants access to human populations (if they didn't first affect CAFO employees). 

I encourage your readers to look at the list of publications cited at Nature Network (part of the science journal Nature's online community).  See the article Priming the Pump of a Swine Flu Pandemic for a detailed analysis of the current situation.  Whether or not Smithfield's Mexican subsidiary is the source of this current outbreak (and there's good reason to suspect they are) we are creating the conditions for a new era of global pandemics.  Avian flu and swine flu have only killed a few hundred people so far.  We may not be so lucky in the future.

]]> Comment #11 by SRoach http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:43:03 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/11 The Smithfield statement may be misleading in another way. If the pigs had the flu in February as suggested in the article you would no longer expect there to be clinical signs. The disease would have passed through the herd in a few weeks. You could probably detect antibodies to the flu virus which would at least let you know whether it was there.

Here is a link to an article on swine flu in a pig breeding herd. http://www.aasv.org/shap/issues/v12n2/v12n2p78.pdf. In that case the herd showed signs for only a few weeks.

 

]]> The Smithfield statement may be misleading in another way. If the pigs had the flu in February as suggested in the article you would no longer expect there to be clinical signs. The disease would have passed through the herd in a few weeks. You could probably detect antibodies to the flu virus which would at least let you know whether it was there.

Here is a link to an article on swine flu in a pig breeding herd. http://www.aasv.org/shap/issues/v12n2/v12n2p78.pdf. In that case the herd showed signs for only a few weeks.

 

]]> Comment #12 by greengoblin http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:37:38 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/12 I hadn't considered the connection btw confined farms and this flu breakout...

--- I saw a really great video earlier that might help get some people living more water efficient lives.  Check out them out at 

 

 

http://www.tomorrowsworldcompetition.com/

 

Students wrote and directed those, can you believe it? They're really working hard to raise awareness and get the public involved. It's a cause worth fighting for!

 

]]> I hadn't considered the connection btw confined farms and this flu breakout...

--- I saw a really great video earlier that might help get some people living more water efficient lives.  Check out them out at 

 

 

http://www.tomorrowsworldcompetition.com/

 

Students wrote and directed those, can you believe it? They're really working hard to raise awareness and get the public involved. It's a cause worth fighting for!

 

]]> Comment #13 by Bart Anderson http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:54:55 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/13 Nice job of tracking the news, Tom.

BTW, the two references you have at the beginning of the article to the Guardian should be to the Times (UK).  The URLs are right, but the link text should be changed.

Bart / Energy Bulletin

]]> Nice job of tracking the news, Tom.

BTW, the two references you have at the beginning of the article to the Guardian should be to the Times (UK).  The URLs are right, but the link text should be changed.

Bart / Energy Bulletin

]]> Comment #14 by ijer http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:06:08 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/14 just get a look at this place in Mexico, where the things begin.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3399/3486222703_28bfdd0abf.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3416/3486228353_d872db75bf_o.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3392/3487039288_9e308e988c.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3397/3487094036_8921fcf745_o.jpg< http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3308/3486227025_1c15587f4d.jpg

Just by the color, how imagine everything is ok?? that the water of the close volcanic lac is not polluted?? Maybe we can even found interesting  chimic and bio materials, virus or antivirus!!!

]]> just get a look at this place in Mexico, where the things begin.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3399/3486222703_28bfdd0abf.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3416/3486228353_d872db75bf_o.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3392/3487039288_9e308e988c.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3397/3487094036_8921fcf745_o.jpg< http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3308/3486227025_1c15587f4d.jpg

Just by the color, how imagine everything is ok?? that the water of the close volcanic lac is not polluted?? Maybe we can even found interesting  chimic and bio materials, virus or antivirus!!!

]]> Comment #15 by ijer http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:06:15 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/15 Comment #16 by gaspard.leon http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:44:32 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/16
Interesting reading, a good summarization of the commercial farming problem:
http://grain.org/articles/?id=48

A quote from the story above: "It should be noted that a common ingredient in industrial animal feed is "poultry litter", which is a mixture of everything found on the floor of factory poultry farms: fecal matter, feathers, bedding, etc"

good way to mix pig and bird flu strains?







]]>
Interesting reading, a good summarization of the commercial farming problem:
http://grain.org/articles/?id=48

A quote from the story above: "It should be noted that a common ingredient in industrial animal feed is "poultry litter", which is a mixture of everything found on the floor of factory poultry farms: fecal matter, feathers, bedding, etc"

good way to mix pig and bird flu strains?







]]> Comment #17 by Former Ag Teacher http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:04:28 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/17 Face it Tom, you are having to back peddle on your speculation in the first article.  You jumped the gun and reported things without checking facts.

 

This article from the Washington Post is a much better source of information than you hyperbolic diatribe.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/28/AR2009042804041.html

]]> Face it Tom, you are having to back peddle on your speculation in the first article.  You jumped the gun and reported things without checking facts.

 

This article from the Washington Post is a much better source of information than you hyperbolic diatribe.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/28/AR2009042804041.html

]]> Comment #18 by Former Ag Teacher http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:16:08 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/18 You can't go by the colors in the photos you posted.  They aren't true color.

They are very interesting photos and anyone looking at them will learn something.  But the information is very subject to interpretation.

For instance, when I look at the photos, I see a lot of crop land around the pork facilities.  That is where they should be, so that the nutrients can be recycled to produce crops.

]]> You can't go by the colors in the photos you posted.  They aren't true color.

They are very interesting photos and anyone looking at them will learn something.  But the information is very subject to interpretation.

For instance, when I look at the photos, I see a lot of crop land around the pork facilities.  That is where they should be, so that the nutrients can be recycled to produce crops.

]]> Comment #19 by Former Ag Teacher http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:30:17 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/19 Don't believe everything you read, especially on websites that are promoting an agenda.

In the United States, poultry litter in not a common ingredient in animal feed, "industrial" or otherwise. 

FDA Announces Ban on Feeding of Poultry Litter

Livestock Update, March 2004

   www.ext.vt.edu/news/periodicals/livestock/aps-04_03/aps-318.html

I doubt that litter is used in animal feed in Mexico, although I don't have experience  and haven't looked for references to back up my contention.

]]> Don't believe everything you read, especially on websites that are promoting an agenda.

In the United States, poultry litter in not a common ingredient in animal feed, "industrial" or otherwise. 

FDA Announces Ban on Feeding of Poultry Litter

Livestock Update, March 2004

   www.ext.vt.edu/news/periodicals/livestock/aps-04_03/aps-318.html

I doubt that litter is used in animal feed in Mexico, although I don't have experience  and haven't looked for references to back up my contention.

]]> Comment #20 by Russ Walker http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:04:55 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/20 If you haven't seen it yet, Grist has posted a thoughtful critique of Tom's writing about swine flu and industrial pork production. You can find the story here:

http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-swine-flu-pork-farm-reax/

]]> If you haven't seen it yet, Grist has posted a thoughtful critique of Tom's writing about swine flu and industrial pork production. You can find the story here:

http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-29-swine-flu-pork-farm-reax/

]]> Comment #21 by x99x http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:47:30 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/21 Tom!  I am practically dead of appreciation for your work.  I've been ploughing around for days and coming up with the identical stuff, and linking big blots of chaos in posts on my blog, expecting everyone to follow my reasoning, and now this is the THIRD time I've landed here to find you brilliantly expressing what I've already found and spluttered/splattered about on my blog.  If nothing else, and I can tell there's plenty else, you have saved me from going comatose with exasperation.

I'm so grateful for you I even let the hated cookies onto my computer to sign up here.  I'm pathologically anti-cookie... actually anti-login as well... but my appreciation and admiration have overcome even my strongest phobias, and I will be forced now to engage with this blog because I can't ignore anyone who has given me some relief from such a crippling load of frustration.

It bothers me to see people suggesting your thesis isn't scientific, how far out into improbable they will reach to avoid an almost completely inescapable and rational conclusion.  For instance, I am so glad you cited something about flies as vectors, even though they have been known to carry viruses and bacteria for a long time.  People don't seem willing to cede that those itty feet actually transfer itty pathogens, be they fairly harmless or deadly.

Oh, I could go on and on, but, really, what I want to say is:  THANK YOU.

]]> Tom!  I am practically dead of appreciation for your work.  I've been ploughing around for days and coming up with the identical stuff, and linking big blots of chaos in posts on my blog, expecting everyone to follow my reasoning, and now this is the THIRD time I've landed here to find you brilliantly expressing what I've already found and spluttered/splattered about on my blog.  If nothing else, and I can tell there's plenty else, you have saved me from going comatose with exasperation.

I'm so grateful for you I even let the hated cookies onto my computer to sign up here.  I'm pathologically anti-cookie... actually anti-login as well... but my appreciation and admiration have overcome even my strongest phobias, and I will be forced now to engage with this blog because I can't ignore anyone who has given me some relief from such a crippling load of frustration.

It bothers me to see people suggesting your thesis isn't scientific, how far out into improbable they will reach to avoid an almost completely inescapable and rational conclusion.  For instance, I am so glad you cited something about flies as vectors, even though they have been known to carry viruses and bacteria for a long time.  People don't seem willing to cede that those itty feet actually transfer itty pathogens, be they fairly harmless or deadly.

Oh, I could go on and on, but, really, what I want to say is:  THANK YOU.

]]> Comment #22 by CowsEatGrass http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:46:54 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/22 Livestock should be produced near crops, preferably on the same farm.  However, they should NEVER be produced in confinement ANYWHERE.

]]> Livestock should be produced near crops, preferably on the same farm.  However, they should NEVER be produced in confinement ANYWHERE.

]]> Comment #23 by SRoach http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:31:58 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/23 While the FDA announced a ban on the feeding of poultry litter in 2004 they backed away from it very quickly and never published a rule that would have put it in place. If you look at the final rule passed last year it makes clear that poultry litter feeding is allowed in the US. http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/08-1180.pdf

In 2005, when the FDA proposed the rule they estimated that between 20% and 36% of litter was fed to cattle as part of the cost analysis of a ban on litter. In 2006, when the Harvard Center for Risk assessment added poultry litter feeding to its risk assessment model on BSE they suggested that 1% was the correct figure. So for the FDA when calculating the cost of a ban use 36% of litter but when assessing the risk use 1%. This type of behaviour does not inspire much trust.

 

]]> While the FDA announced a ban on the feeding of poultry litter in 2004 they backed away from it very quickly and never published a rule that would have put it in place. If you look at the final rule passed last year it makes clear that poultry litter feeding is allowed in the US. http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/08-1180.pdf

In 2005, when the FDA proposed the rule they estimated that between 20% and 36% of litter was fed to cattle as part of the cost analysis of a ban on litter. In 2006, when the Harvard Center for Risk assessment added poultry litter feeding to its risk assessment model on BSE they suggested that 1% was the correct figure. So for the FDA when calculating the cost of a ban use 36% of litter but when assessing the risk use 1%. This type of behaviour does not inspire much trust.

 

]]> Comment #24 by CowsEatGrass http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:57:18 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/24 Certified Organic livestock may not be fed any animal parts or manure.

]]> Certified Organic livestock may not be fed any animal parts or manure.

]]> Comment #25 by Bud Dingler http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:36:54 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/25 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124105320874371313.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

 

 

" Mexico's top government epidemiologist said Wednesday that it is "highly improbable" that a farm in the Mexican state of Veracruz operated by Smithfield Foods Inc. is responsible for the nation's swine-flu outbreak.

Miguel Ángel Lezana, the government's chief epidemiologist, said in an interview that pigs at the farm are from North America, while the genetic material in the virus is from Europe and Asia." 

 

In my view Grist has devolved into a tabloid of sensational news stories that seek to rip any corporate entity thats involved in food. 

 

]]> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124105320874371313.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

 

 

" Mexico's top government epidemiologist said Wednesday that it is "highly improbable" that a farm in the Mexican state of Veracruz operated by Smithfield Foods Inc. is responsible for the nation's swine-flu outbreak.

Miguel Ángel Lezana, the government's chief epidemiologist, said in an interview that pigs at the farm are from North America, while the genetic material in the virus is from Europe and Asia." 

 

In my view Grist has devolved into a tabloid of sensational news stories that seek to rip any corporate entity thats involved in food. 

 

]]> Comment #26 by gristle http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Mon, 04 May 2009 04:32:46 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/26 And now we have pigs in Canada who've caught the flu from a human who caught it in Mexico...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-05-03-canada-flu_N.htm

 

But of course that's technically impossible given the big oceanic voids in our heads, especially in those government officials who are likely on Smithfield's [un]official payola-roll.

 

Huge food corporations have made their own beds. It's only recently the crap has started seeping through the layers they've built up with all the covers.

]]> And now we have pigs in Canada who've caught the flu from a human who caught it in Mexico...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-05-03-canada-flu_N.htm

 

But of course that's technically impossible given the big oceanic voids in our heads, especially in those government officials who are likely on Smithfield's [un]official payola-roll.

 

Huge food corporations have made their own beds. It's only recently the crap has started seeping through the layers they've built up with all the covers.

]]> Comment #27 by wkyih http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/ Wed, 06 May 2009 15:41:51 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-28-more-smithfield-swine/27 Thanks for this nice analysis, Tom.  I agree with the overall argument that intensive, concentrated production of pigs and poultry facilitates the spread of disease and the emergence of new strains of influenza, some of which can infect and spread in humans.  However, the claim of transmission via pig feces is a little shaky, I think.  The tidbit you provided about flies vectoring H5N1 influenza in Kyoto in 2004 isn't directly relevant.  Avian influenza is an infection of the birds' GI tract, which is why you'd expect to find virus in feces of infected birds.  In pigs, influenza is a respiratory illness.  I suppose you could get SOME influenza virus mixed in with the feces by sheer happenstance if you had hundreds of pigs infected, but probably not much.  

]]> Thanks for this nice analysis, Tom.  I agree with the overall argument that intensive, concentrated production of pigs and poultry facilitates the spread of disease and the emergence of new strains of influenza, some of which can infect and spread in humans.  However, the claim of transmission via pig feces is a little shaky, I think.  The tidbit you provided about flies vectoring H5N1 influenza in Kyoto in 2004 isn't directly relevant.  Avian influenza is an infection of the birds' GI tract, which is why you'd expect to find virus in feces of infected birds.  In pigs, influenza is a respiratory illness.  I suppose you could get SOME influenza virus mixed in with the feces by sheer happenstance if you had hundreds of pigs infected, but probably not much.  

]]>