There's plenty of blame to go around here.  The problem is human behavior in general, despite the fact that some people are causing more and worse problems than others.

   Umm, folks, it does matter.  Because when the pain of the solutions is handed out, this study suggests that most of it be born by the DEVELOPED countries.

   It is totally unsurprising that people in the developed countries want to downplay such information and/or ignore as valueless.  

   But you should pay attention, because it will be an important part of the discussions about what needs to be done globally over the next few years.

patrick in Beijing

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

-- Margaret Mead


You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

       I am afraid we disagree.  There is quite a lot of global discussion going on (if something happens in the world, and the US MSM doesn't talk about it, did it really make a sound?).

       For instance, here, England and China just signed some agreements on working together on the green city concept.  What they learn (good and bad) will prove to be useful to other efforts going on around the globe (and there are efforts, though certainly not enough anywhere!!).

       This issue is not just about individuals (unless you want agree to have the Pentagon's CO2 emissions charged to you?), but about organizations (govt, business, etc.) both local and global.

      The language we use and bring to the discussions is important in determining their success.

patrick in Beijing

Maybe I should have said, "Meaningful" discussion.  The fact that China an England has signed an agreement to work together on the green city concept would on the surface appear encouraging. However when one looks at their actions and compare it to their rhetoric it is easy to see that these green talks are just that talk. England is going forward with a new generation of nuclear power stations and China is going to build 50 new coal fired power plants. The public is easily placated with all the talk about all the talking our governments are doing. Green cities are not a concept. The knowledge and ability to create green cities have been around for many years. Now is the time to do not plan and talk.

I see that we do disagree. It is all about the individual and nothing else! As individuals we are quick to pass the responsibility off to government or corporations. It is the individual through their actions and voice that bring change. Governments only do what we tell them to do. Here in the USA we are fat and comfortable and we are telling our government and our corporations to keep it that way. Their will be no change until we as individuals change.

If the people lead..... eventually leaders will follow.

Thomas Jefferson


You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

         Both England and China are beyond planning, but planning must happen before action.  For governments to act without planning is irresponsible and can lead to disasters.

         (Hint, think about a certain war in a country, four letters, beginning with "I").

         The American individualist notion is one of the blocks to progress.  It will require people working together to make the needed changes, which is why people created governments (as a focus of their collective actions).

         The "individual" needs to organize her/his neighbors to get anywhere.

patrick in Beijing

Planning seems to be the one thing our societies can actually accomplish. It did not escape me that you failed to address the incongruity between England's and China's rhetoric and their planned power plant expansions. Maybe this is not a problem for you but it seems like the same old - same old public pacifying talk to me. When one considers the control that the nuclear and coal industries have over the governments of the world I am confident that my assessment is correct. This is the age old shell game, distract the public and offer hope while actually doing the opposite. Give the front runner presidential candidates (corporate lackeys, doesn't matter which party) the talking points so they can tell the American public how nuclear and coal power have by some miracle become "GreeN". Where is the talk about conserving power? I am not hearing any serious conversation or public debate in the USA. I think that Hillary said it best when asked why the candidates weren't talking about global warming.....the public is not interested. Here in the Mid-West people are not cutting back, carpooling or combining trips they just pump the gas and grumble.

I hope that you do not really think that Iraq Disaster occurred because of a lack of planning. There was no lack of planning. I guess that for governments to plan to act irresponsible is somehow acting responsible at least that is how our continued involvement in the War is now being sold to the public. After all it is not GWB's children that are fighting and dying, they selling books and tour the country.

Now this statement; "The American individualist notion is one of the blocks to progress." I can't give you a pass on this! Individual, from the Latin word individuus, indivisible-in, not, and dividuus, divisible, DIVIDE. Subsisting as one indivisible entity or distinct being. To mark as an individual; to distinguish by peculiar or distinctive characters. The American Individualist used to be admired and revered in the World. Then along came George W. Bush and in less than two terms in office has reduced the name of America to a curse word in most of the World, shame on us for letting this happen. American Individualism is not a Notion but a Goal and for most of the World it was a dream for over 200 years.

It has been great having this conversation with you and I wish you the very best in your green endeavors. This will be my last post on this subject so you may have the last word. Tomorrow, I think I will catch a ride to the local mall and stand with the Ron Paul People with their signs and offer the American people a choice that you won't see on TV. They are not right about everything, but they are doing something. Then in November, when Ohio holds its primary, I will go vote for Dennis Kucinich.

Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got.

Janis Joplin

P.S. People this is not a private conservation - jump in


You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

I think that Hillary said it best when asked why the candidates weren't talking about global warming.....the public is not interested.

Do you think that the public's lack of interest might have something to do with the fact that it's winter here in the northern hemisphere?  Let's talk about this again when it's July and people are dying in south Texas...

Here in the Mid-West people are not cutting back, carpooling or combining trips they just pump the gas and grumble.

Individual conservation, under capitalism, is no solution at all to abrupt climate change.  Even if individual conservation were to gain some social momentum, it would merely lower the price of fossil fuels, which would allow the up-and-coming countries (India, China, etc.) to consume more fossil fuels more cheaply.  Supply and demand, eh?

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

    People do care, but run into the limits of what they are able to accomplish as individuals.  I can't solve his problems my self, nor can my teaching partner, nor can his grandparents, nor can the school.

     Many of the problems in the world require systemic solutions, not individual solutions.  We create social safety nets because individuals left on their own, often fail.

     The notion of American individualism, while highly popular, was based on many false assumptions.  It's failure can be seen in the current failure of America (the richest nation) to  solve any of it's persistent problems (health care, poverty, education, the environment).

     American individualism was NOT a dream for most of the world.  American material wealth was the dream.  They are not the same.  American material wealth has frequently been mis-portrayed to the world, so it was a false dream.

     (Many people believe there are no poor in America, someone told me that buses are never crowded, everyone lives in a home with a swimming pool and garden (the list goes one).)

     As to the contradictions between building more power plants and building green cities, they should not surprise people.  The Hegelian notion of change suggests that contradictions naturally occur during periods of change.  It is how they are ultimately resolved that matters.

     Ron Paul fails in my book on many many issues (smile).  But good luck to you, have fun anyway.

patrick in Beijing