Comments mbp1111 has made

  • Green Seal Link

    Here is a working link for Green Seal's list of certified paints.

    http://www.greenseal.org/findaproduct/index.cfm#paintsOn Umbra on eco-friendly paint posted 2 years, 2 months ago 7 Responses

  • The future is here?

    Jeff, first off, I'd like to apologize if you took my comment to be an attack on you.  It was not meant to be interpreted that way.  I was only trying to make a point (with some humor) that you are using resources too.  I don't care whether it's less than what I use, but you still use resources, including wood products.  

    To point out that you use wood products was not to point out that you are a hypocrite and that you shouldn't argue for what you believe.  My point was that since you use resources (which is a FACT), don't you want them harvested in a more sustainable manner than is currently practiced?

    I'll let you focus on the long term changes you're advocating for (which are important and to a lesser extent, I agree with), I'm just more interested in making realistic changes for the short term.  Both approaches need to exist.

    In regards to others' comments about collaboration and the Forest Service, it is already here (although only in rare instances).  Wallowa County in NE Oregon just had their first timber sale on public land that wasn't challenged in court b/c the FS worked with the concerns of environmental groups.  I've heard great things about the Applegate Partnership in SW Oregon, and the Quincy Library group (I think that's what it's called) in California.  

    If anything, the fact that the "Old Guard" of the FS are a bunch of tree-cutting curmudgeons (to stereotype), might be a reason to focus on local collaborations with the FS-- it might bring at least a little more of the power to local FS employees who might also happen to be environmentalists.  Sure, they work in a larger structure that has the ultimate decision making power, but I don't see how it will hurt.  If the FS reneges, take 'em to court.  If not, you have more sustainably harvested wood, local jobs in depressed rural areas, and less imported wood.

    Thanks for everyone's comments so far.  I've been enjoying this discussion. On It's time for conservationists to collaborate with an agency they've long demonized posted 3 years, 9 months ago 103 Responses

  • Insects are animals too

    Jeff,

    Calling something a resource does not deny respect or even that it has a spiritual essence.  It simply means using something for living.  I know Native Americans respected the earth a hell of a lot more than we do.  

    "your implication that indigenous people destroy the environment as much as we do is the typical defense of those who support environmental destruction."  

    Do you mean my reference to Easter Island?  Have you read what happened there?  How about the Anasazi?  The great cities of the Mayan empire?  Ever wonder what happened to the large mammals that roamed North America that existed when humans arrived on the continent?  How about the huge diversity of flightless birds on south Pacific Islands that Europeans never saw alive?  Not all indigenous cultures lived in absolute harmony with their surroundings, as much as you'd like to believe.

    My point is that people, all people, use stuff and that stuff must come from somewhere.  Sure, our society uses a disgusting amount of resources-- I'm not justifying our level of consumption.  Half my working life I've been educating people about ways to decrease their ecological footprint.  I'm just saying that there are better ways of using and obtaining resources, and there are worse ways.  Clear cutting old growth?  Bad way.  Sustainably logging 2nd growth?  Better.  Using products made of reclaimed or recycled wood?  Even better (but even it has an original use).  Not using any sort of wood product, best, but it ain't gonna happen.  

    Jeff, unless you're sending smoke signals (from a fire made of dead wood) to someone doing your dirty work (typing your messages on a computer made of plastics, heavy metals, wood products, metal, etc.) from somewhere in the tropics wearing only skins from an animal you killed, you too are using resources. I am too, I admit it.

    That is why I fully believe Friedman is right on with his article.  If environmentalists (of which I claim to be) engage the Forest Service, we can hopefully increase the pressure to start sustainabily logging on our public lands, instead of relying on clear cuts.  If we're going to use resources, which we all do, we might as well work to decrease the enironmental harm.On It's time for conservationists to collaborate with an agency they've long demonized posted 3 years, 9 months ago 103 Responses

  • Fire kills

    Last time I heard, many Native American tribes set fires to maintain savanna conditions (such as in the Willamette Valley, Oregon).  I would imagine that those killed many trees (saplings), grasses, animals, etc. that they did not eat.  

    And dugout canoes.  Those weren't dead trees.  Long houses were made of wood.  What about poles for teepees?  How about the grasses/reeds that were "killed" for basket making?  

    Sure, maybe some indigenous peoples did not kill trees but that's probably because they lived in climates where they weren't available.  I think you would be hard pressed to find an indigenous culture that did not "kill" live trees as a resource.  Granted, it was generally much more sustainable than what is happening now but you only gloss over that point ("so few that it was unnoticeable"--except Easter island).

    Cherry picking when it is ok to cut down trees (restoration, invasives, not noticeable) seems a bit hypocritical to me.  

    Arguing that killing trees is immoral is not going to solve any problem that our society is facing and it is definitely not going to save any trees.         On It's time for conservationists to collaborate with an agency they've long demonized posted 3 years, 9 months ago 103 Responses

  • Friedman's point

    Birdboy, I think you've forgotten one of Friedman's primary points.  It is time for conservation agencies to engage with the Forest Service.  With engagement and collaboration, conservation agencies can push for the types of practices that atreyger is discussing.  As long as it's an adversarial relationship, it's that much harder to become involved in the planning of healthier, more sustainable logging practices on our public lands.  

    Do I wish we could just stop all logging, preserve all forests, and let Mother Nature do her thing?  Yes, but I think it's time that folks start looking at the reality of the situation.  Our society has a voracious appetite for wood products, whether it's for ridiculously large McMansions, junk mail, newspapers, whatever.  This is not going to change anytime soon, no matter how much we wish it would.  Do I think this is a good thing?  Absolutely not.  Do I wish all paper was made from primarily recycled pulp?  Of course.  Do I wish people lived in smaller homes?  Duh.  But my point is that until our usage of wood products becomes more sustainable, we should not be exporting our problems to countries that have fewer/no environmental standards when it comes to logging.  (And as an aside, think about the fossil fuels used to transport this wood to the US.)  That is what we are doing right now.  In the short term, wouldn't it be better to encourage the sorts of healthy logging practices that atreyger is suggesting here at home, so as to lessen our reliance on even less sustainably cut woods from other countries?  My answer is yes, but no doubt many will disagree.  On It's time for conservationists to collaborate with an agency they've long demonized posted 3 years, 9 months ago 103 Responses