Comments greenfire8 has made

  • putting the smoke back in the Smokies

    This doesn't bode well for the Smoky Mtn National Park....just downwind from the hazardous / nuclear waste incinerator at Oak Ridge and all the many coal plants whose emissions funnel down through the southern foothills of the AppalachiansOn EPA plans to loosen air-quality rules near national parks posted 1 year, 6 months ago 4 Responses

  • dragon

    Cool the firebreath buddy. Have you heard of mercury by any chance? Take a look at orca or maybe alaskan innuits and the salmon they rely on....some of the highest concentrations of mercury in the world, not b/c of any fault of their own. Sierra was very instrumental in informing people of Bush's ridiculous mercury rule and thankfully it has now been overturned. One less layer of BS to clean off our laws after this 8 years of hell is over. I hope the coal barons appreciate this mother's day gift. Go Sierra!On Sierra Club will sue over new coal plants posted 1 year, 6 months ago 4 Responses

  • it is what it is

    Per capita consumption is an important issue to hightlight, especially for this country. Dont try to make the survey more than what it is.On Brazilians and Indians are the greenest, says survey posted 1 year, 6 months ago 9 Responses

  • couldnt make it 10 seconds

    I'm sorry, I couldnt even listen to what she had to say. She's fine no doubt and I'm definitely a red-blooded american man, but that was just ridiculous. Anyone who thinks this kind of vanity is going to bring about a more sustainable population needs to spend a little less time in the bathroom and a little more considering places like Las Vegas.On How to get people to pay attention to peak oil posted 1 year, 6 months ago 45 Responses

  • lol

    I definitely didnt have to scroll down to know who posted that first comment ROFL....copying my comment from this story in the blog....

    Its not a new tactic in business or gov to ask for alot just to get a little. All in all, its more sprawl...

    ironic that if the NRDC, Sierra Club and especially the Center for Biological Diversity did not spend so much energy in an ill informed fight
    There is no irony in this. It was the possibility of a "fight" with NRDC, Sierra, et al that brought Tejon around after a few years. Its not over though. Only 170,000 acres have been protected. 60k now have the option of purchase by the public. Check the article below: "plans still must be approved by state and federal regulatory authorities, as well as Los Angeles and Kern counties."

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tejon8-2008may08, ...

    "The agreement guarantees Tejon Ranch Co. the right to proceed with massive development projects near Interstate 5: Centennial, a planned community of 23, 000 homes east of Quail Lake in northern Los Angeles County; and Tejon Mountain Village in southern Kern County, which will include a resort featuring spas and boutique hotels, commercial space, golf courses and 3, 400 estate homes. The Tejon Industrial Complex in the Kern County portion of the ranch is already home to IKEAâ€TMs 2-million-square-foot main distribution warehouse, among others." On Unprecedented land conservation deal posted 1 year, 6 months ago 4 Responses

  • It must be an election year

    As many have pointed out, this is purely polarized, political hype from the NRA to address a need that doesnt exist. The National Association of Park Rangers, the Coalition of Retired National Park Service Employees, and the Ranger Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police are all opposed to this bill b/c of the increased danger to the public, park staff, and of course wildlife.

    If you really want to do something to improve safety in parks and free up some of the rangers' time so they might actually get back to interpretive work w/ the public, consider the funding shortfalls that the Park Service is facing: 35% or $600 million per year ( http://www.npca.org/media_center/reports/analysis.html ). This doesnt include land acquisition shortages which have increased the complexity of management and left large gaps in parks open to potential development ( http://www.npca.org/landforsale/ ).On DOI takes public comment on allowing loaded guns in national parks posted 1 year, 6 months ago 12 Responses

  • good an outcome as possible?

    Good points wolverine. Its not a new tactic in business or gov to ask for alot just to get a little. All in all, its more sprawl...

    ironic that if the NRDC, Sierra Club and especially the Center for Biological Diversity did not spend so much energy in an ill informed fight

    There is no irony in this. It was the possibility of a "fight" with NRDC, Sierra, et al that brought Tejon around after a few years. Its not over though. Only 170,000 acres have been protected. 60k now have the option of purchase by the public. Check the article below: "plans still must be approved by state and federal regulatory authorities, as well as Los Angeles and Kern counties."

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/los_angeles_metro/la-me ... 0, 759061.story

    "The agreement guarantees Tejon Ranch Co. the right to proceed with massive development projects near Interstate 5: Centennial, a planned community of 23, 000 homes east of Quail Lake in northern Los Angeles County; and Tejon Mountain Village in southern Kern County, which will include a resort featuring spas and boutique hotels, commercial space, golf courses and 3, 400 estate homes. The Tejon Industrial Complex in the Kern County portion of the ranch is already home to IKEAâ€TMs 2-million-square-foot main distribution warehouse, among others." On Greens and developer come to agreement in SoCal posted 1 year, 6 months ago 9 Responses

  • neo-liberal fantasy?

    neo-liberal fantasy that poverty and starvation is merely a problem in distribution must be laid to rest

    Could you please cite a few of these "neo-liberals" who think population issues are not part of the equation? Search Grist for the piece on the blackeye that Sierra Club received when they entered the population debate last.....

    Wow, 200% beyond carrying capacity...that sounds pretty concrete. Exactly what standard of living (cultural carrying capacity) does that entail for everyone? Those debates are endless and often ludicrous.

    dp87, you make no mention of any sort of proactive way to counter the problem you cite!?! If you will think it through, you will find such distribution is a key, pivotal factor in the ability of countries to deal w/ said issues.On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 6 months ago 34 Responses

  • mycorrhizae

    I'm not saying we need to go backwards. Too linear a debate. Consider how much we've learned about soil biology since the industrial revolution. Consider mycorrhizal fungi and how new their discovery still is. The glue they make we're learning is vastly important to healthy soil, and btw carbon capture. My concern is that we dont destroy our chances of learning about these mysteries before we have the opportunity.On The rhetoric of population in the hunger crisis posted 1 year, 7 months ago 11 Responses

  • well said, however

    It led to our estrangement from nature, and from each other when stored food created opportunities for the strong to dominate the weak.

    Of course it's too late to go back.


    Its not too late. Its cyclical....liberals/conservatives....conventional/organic....there are still some folks around who recognize that "organic" used to be "conventional" or just plain ole good common horse sense  ;)
    On The rhetoric of population in the hunger crisis posted 1 year, 7 months ago 11 Responses

  • Des Emery

    Noone has "imposed" anything on him in here. It was his choice to enter and start calling people ignorant, bourgeoisie, racists!On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • remember this natural gas company...

    Some snippets from a NY Times piece:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D05EFD71E ...
    Power Trader Tied to Bush Finds Washington All Ears; May, 2001

    Curtis Hébert Jr., Washington's top electricity regulator, said he had barely settled into his new job this year when he had an unsettling telephone conversation with Kenneth L. Lay, the head of the nation's largest electricity trader, the Enron Corporation.

    Mr. Hébert, chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, said that Mr. Lay, a close friend of President Bush's, offered him a deal: If he changed his views on electricity deregulation, Enron would continue to support him in his new job.

    Mr. Lay has been one of Mr. Bush's largest campaign contributors, and no other energy company gave more money to Republican causes last year than Enron.

    Mr. Lay is not shy about voicing his opinion or flexing his political muscle. He has transformed the Houston-based Enron from a sleepy natural-gas company into a $100 billion energy giant with global reach, trading electricity in all corners of the world and owning a multibillion-dollar power project in India. He has also led the push to deregulate the nation's electricity markets.

    Senior Bush administration officials said they welcomed Mr. Lay's input but did not always embrace it: President Bush backed away from curbing carbon-dioxide emissions, an effort supported by Enron, which had looked to trade emission rights as part of its energy business. On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • Jonah

    You're obviously getting ahead of yourself and are having some trouble. Maybe you need to slow down a bit.

    Which of my mistakes are you correcting exactly? I never said anything about nitrate fertilizers being made from oil. I did however just quote the International Fertilizer Industry Association, who does in fact include petroleum hydrocarbons as a component. Now I know you need to slow down.

    I also never said nuclear is used. I satirically cited it as one of the few unsustainable energies you have left to champion.

    Keep fishin Jonah....On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • From IFA

    -About 97% of nitrogen fertilizers are derived from synthetically produced ammonia

    -The production of anhydrous ammonia is based on reacting nitrogen with hydrogen under high temperatures and pressures. The source of nitrogen is the air, the hydrogen being derived from a variety of raw materials, including water, crude oil, coal and natural gas hydrocarbons.

    Energy
    -today natural gas is the feedstock of choice. The use of natural gas is accelerating rapidly, because of economic factors but also and increasingly due to environmental pressures, which work against other fossil fuels....However, processes for ammonia production can use a wide range of energy sources. Thus, even when oil and gas supplies eventually dwindle...

    (emphasis mine)On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • not necessarily...

    a couple of bad weather crop failures in different parts of the world and you will have a situation right out of the apocalypse.

    I have seen compost cited as an equally effective control for Fusarium outbreaks in turfgrass (same fungus causing "white-nose syndrome" in bats). Beyond that however, the re-greening w/ compost vs chemical controls is far superior.

    Droughts were not the only thing that caused our Great Dust Bowl. They were just the straw that broke the back of years of unsustainable ag practices...poor rotation, lack of conservation tillage, fossil fuel inputs, etc..

    My point: Healthy soil has a vastly superior ability to withstand adverse impacts.On The rhetoric of population in the hunger crisis posted 1 year, 7 months ago 11 Responses

  • good points pangolin

    ottoco, you need to differentiate b/w selling to corporate retailers vs. direct sales (CSA's, farmers markets, etc). The farm I used to work sells 200+ shares, does the farmer's market, and supplies retailers. It's good to be able to appeal to diverse markets for many reasons, but for our purpose here lets just say that there was NO waste. We'd have a box of "culls" available for free for folks picking up their shares...good for making juice or whatever. People at the local markets are usually more practical about blemishes on their food. I LOVE the person that comes up to the market stand looking for a little earworm damage as a sign of organics 8)On Recent studies: organic ag is just as productive, and better for you posted 1 year, 7 months ago 22 Responses

  • amazingdrx

    amazing,

    -Rhizomes are actually horizontal stems of a plant...they can be above (iris, ferns) or below ground (ginger, bermuda grass).

    -Rhizobium is a genus of bacteria. From Univ of CO: (mutualists - form mutually beneficial relationship with host) live on the roots of legumes (beans, peas, clover, locust trees, etc.) and convert nitrogen gas (N2) into a form that the legume can use.  When the leaves or roots of the legume decompose, nitrogen is released into the soil.

    -Mychorrhizal fungi are a very unique and valuable component of healthy soil. Many benefical fungi improve soil tilth by breaking through soil layers and binding together aggregates, but mycorrhizae produce glomalin, a glue that is extremely important for creating/maintaining the pore space needed by roots and other parts of the soil food web.

    Glomalin: Hiding Place for a Third of the World's Stored Soil Carbon

    Glomalin: Hiding Place for a Third of the World's Stored Soil Carbon

    A sticky protein seems to be the unsung hero of soil carbon storage.

    Until its discovery in 1996 by ARS soil scientist Sara F. Wright, this soil "super glue" was mistaken for an unidentifiable constituent of soil organic matter. Rather, it permeates organic matter, binding it to silt, sand, and clay particles. Not only does glomalin contain 30 to 40 percent carbon, but it also forms clumps of soil granules called aggregates. These add structure to soil and keep other stored soil carbon from escaping.

    On Recent studies: organic ag is just as productive, and better for you posted 1 year, 7 months ago 22 Responses

  • read this...

    http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/5/1/63034/75489#3On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • oops....dont follow that link

    On The rhetoric of population in the hunger crisis posted 1 year, 7 months ago 11 Responses

  • would behoove all in here....

    ...to read this:
    http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/5/1/63034/75489#3On The rhetoric of population in the hunger crisis posted 1 year, 7 months ago 11 Responses

  • Cheers

    Thank you Sharon.  8)On The rhetoric of population in the hunger crisis posted 1 year, 7 months ago 11 Responses

  • but, but....

    ....Dow sponsors all those "green" shows on the Discovery Channel.  ;)On Top EPA official forced out by political appointees posted 1 year, 7 months ago 1 Response

  • a question

    I cant help but notice how you skip over everyone's comments on sound soil conservation practices and leap on some tangent about refinery fuel sources. You obviously know a great deal more about manufacturing fertilizer from fossil fuels than you do about soil. Why is that?On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • Jonah, you left out nukulur

    Now you're casting your vote for more coal. This goes along well w/ the moratorium on solar you'd like to see. You're a true champion of the environment, my friend.On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • link to the previous discussion again

    http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/3/18/84752/1564

    Beyond my comments there, I would add that this project should not even be considered w/o some understanding of the fraud exposed in the "more flexible" parts of Kyoto we bullied in, i.e. CDM and offsets. This was written several years before Nature really broke the story in 2007.
    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1209-08.htm

    I found this other article interesting. The position they take isnt so appealing to me, but it's an insight into how the local politics play out...
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/printedi ...

    I'm pleased w/ certain externalities being recognized, but for the reasons above, maintain a cautious optimism as Kyoto is updated w/ this new push for including "deforestation prevention."

    amazingdrx: Will it eventually lead to monetizing air, water, and earth itself?

    I have definitely heard the idea of trading "rain credits" tossed around. Anyone see "Memron"?On Private equity firm buys rights to rainforest reserve's environmental services posted 1 year, 7 months ago 6 Responses

  • trust us, we have an exclusion from NEPA & ESA

    I just can't see how we can trust in the monitoring/enforcement of these practices; in our own states, country, or abroad; while Dept of Homeland Insecurity, the Armed Forces, and others keep showing a flagrant disregard for ecology by asking to be excluded from our most core environmental laws...the border wall most recently...On On the oddity of privatizing nature posted 1 year, 7 months ago 31 Responses

  • on hedge funds and canned-hunts

    rune: we don't know how to quickly create diverse and resilient ecosystems that would otherwise take the spans of many human lifetimes to evolve and, (b) even when there is a promising plan in place, mitigation project monitoring and remediation is often inadequate

    This way of doing business has already turned our atmosphere into what should, by all rights, be recognized as the world's largest and potentially most deadly Superfund site

    This way of doing business has already turned our atmosphere into what should, by all rights, be recognized as the world's largest and potentially most deadly Superfund site

    Last time I looked, companies were lining up to make a buck from bulldozing a hole out in the middle of a cornfield to replace a wetland in a completely different geographic area of the state w/ vastly different flora/fauna and overall need for the mitigation that wetlands provide. Cheney and his canned-duck-hunting buddies love the new system from what I've heard.On On the oddity of privatizing nature posted 1 year, 7 months ago 31 Responses

  • this deserves repeating!

    Pangolin: Mineral or nitrate fetilizers cannot replace the tilth, microbial activity or water retention of high carbon organic or biochar enhanced soils.

    The honey-comb-like structure (tilth) that is literally built by the biodiversity of healthy soil, which most conventional fertilizers work against, can not be understated here. It's hard enough to quantify, as its still such a new realm for researchers in the developing world.On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • the juggernaut

    Saving the wolves is much harder than it seems. It requires a dizzying array of inter-disciplinary consensus and cooperation. It goes far beyond breeding pairs and F&G and FWS management. Just try to get DOT to take a stance on highway expansion's impact on sprawl. They, together w/ their many backers, will play that chicken-or-the-egg card till you're ready to lay one yourself.On Gray wolves under attack, groups want them re-listed posted 1 year, 7 months ago 21 Responses

  • compost tea's also good for....

    ....holding in place those conventional inputs that you still utilize...we used up to 10% nitrate occasionally, w/in Organic Standards...On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • matt

    Ever experiment w/ compost tea? Massive potential for reducing conventional inputs....On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • funny

    You have now openly admitted that you are not interested in:
    -Reducing poverty
    -Achieving food security
    -Raising farm production
    -Pro-poor Policies
    -Sustainability

    Your potential for inductive reasoning, taking others out of context, and completely missing the point is truly impressive.On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • a little full of yourself?

    I dont expect anyone to miss the point of the summit. I have the utmost faith in grist readers' ability to see how you are ignoring the ills of fertilizer-use and the industry that makes it, trying to make it into the end-all, be-all cure for the world!

    Are you actually making accusations about the maturity of others? LOL....Too easy! Watch that vessel pokin out of your temple, Jonah.On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • completely hypocritical

    Jonah calling others out for anti-social behavior ROFL!!! We're just a bunch of "anglo-saxon racists" to him anyway. Jonah, have you ever heard of "reverse racism?" Personally, I see far more of that today. Get a clue buddy, or you'll never cease being a walking contradiction!On Unlike McCain and Clinton, Obama would have us capitulate to Gas Price Terror posted 1 year, 7 months ago 16 Responses

  • Jonah

    Would you hurry up and bust a vessel, so the rest of us can get on w/ realistic conversations on sustainability please.On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • maxine

    manure...folks at Grist want it poured directly on our food

    Who is advocating that process? Actually, Organic Standards wouldnt allow anything close to that.On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • Jonah & his whale-tale

    A lot of green paternalist commments here again

    I guess it might appear that way to a wanna-be intellectual elitist such as yourself LOL
    Does it mean some ignorant bourgeois kid from the West offing Africans, telling them what to grow and not to eat bushmeat?

    Kids offing Africans...what are you even talking about? Are you saying you're happy w/ the state of endangered primates in Africa, amidst the bushmeat trade?

    Go tell those starving Africans about "ecological morality" and fertilizers. I can guarantee you you'll end up as bushmeat.

    Yea, because all Africans are cannibals right? Who's the racist?

    it is clear that you are a typical white Anglosaxon

    Ehem, I repeat...who's the racist?

    Fertilizers save the environment. Or are you really so ignorant?

    Here you go Jonah....from the Africa Fertilizer Summit:

    Environmental Risks of Increased Fertilizer Use

    Increased fertilizer use is not a panacea and, in fact, if used inappropriately it can create environmental problems of its own, as seen in developed and developing countries from the United States to India. Environmental problems that have been associated with the misuse and over use of fertilizers include:
    • Eutrophication (nutrient pollution that depletes water of oxygen and can kill aquatic life) of lakes and coastal waters by nitrogen and phosphorus run off;
    • Build up of nitrogen that leads to acidification of soil (this can foster the release of elements like aluminum, which are toxic to roots and can lead to yield declines in crops such as sorghum);
    • Increases in toxic chemicals in the soil through impurities left in fertilizer;
    • Over-application of fertilizers can kill soil organisms, which harms the soilâ€TMs ability to retain and recycle nutrients;
    • Emission of nitrogen gasses into the air can contribute to global ozone depletion and greenhouse gasses.

    Ask the Europeans how they were capable of restoring their environment. It was only possible because of massive increases in agricultural productivity, thereby limiting the amount of land required to feed everyone.
    But this is obviously way beyond you.

    I'll put an organic operation against a conventional one any day in terms of productivity. I cant help but wonder if you've ever even gotten your hands dirty.

    I'm sorry, but ignorance and green bourgeois thinking is the biggest threat to the planet.

    Actually, I think its the wanna-be elitists such as yourself who are willing to say anything if they think it makes them appear like they know better than everyone else. Your the one who wants a moratorium on solar power right? ROFL Mind if I borrow your sentence? "It is you we should be worried about."

    My advice to you is: go get a clue!On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • coyotes, agro aryans, and MDOT

    I was/am especially exited at the potential for wolves increasing the antelope herds through controlling coyotes.

    As for N. Idaho, be afraid, be very afraid...LOL...I kid. There is no shortage of agro hunters and trappers there that would like to see wolves eradicated entirely though. The Governor said he'd be the first in line for the kill.

    N. Idaho is such a spectacular area....Bitteroots, Salmon/Selway, Frank Church/River of No Return, Clearwater. Cant speak too well about the potential for Idaho>Oregon>Washington migration. They are definitely beginning to show up in Oregon. Last I heard there was some confilct in policies b/w that state and the N. Rocky mtn wolves where a nebulous gap lies between the zones.

    For now, I'd just like to see the N. Rocky mtn wolves able to make it from Yellowstone to Glacier....Yellowstone>Gallatin/Beaverhead/Deer Lodge/Bitterroot>Missions/Bob Marshall/Seeley-Swan>Flathead/Glacier/Waterton (Canada). I was in MT when Hwy 93 was being expanded....the main N/S arterial wolves have to cross if they want to make it to ID and points west. Those meetings were a complete nightmare! Not even going to get into what MDOT tried to pull w/ the Confederated Salish & Kootenai Tribes in the process.....On Gray wolves under attack, groups want them re-listed posted 1 year, 7 months ago 21 Responses

  • indeed

    If you want to help those people, you need not look across the pond. Reforming our heavily subsidized version of "free-trade" for the corporate-elite would be a great start. Once we're through fixing and dominating the world grain market, they will truly be free to trade and develop the infrastructure that will provide the means for sustainable living.On Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • re: work with a Diety like that?

    LOL tips hat

    Dont mind drx. He does a good job on himself....resorts to pre-pubescent name calling and the like.

    btw...I have a flatbottom skiff which I can wear a number of hats in. You might catch me w/ a fly rod, shotgun, or d.o. meter. Its nothing pretty...all about utility.On On God and gas posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • poor froggies

    Exterminate the human species by cooking us, drowning us, destroying our crops, infecting us with disease... the results of global climate change..

    If global climate change is an act of God in response to us, either by asking for it indirectly through prayer or simply by living unsustainably, then why do countless other species have to go extinct first (herps cant take quite as much warmth as us)?On On God and gas posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • amazingdrx : doubling GHG's

    Bush : Iraq WMD'sOn On God and gas posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • can't forget....

    public lands grazing rights for cattle!!! Not exactly a small issue out there...On Gray wolves under attack, groups want them re-listed posted 1 year, 7 months ago 21 Responses

  • Actually...

    ...their range in MN spans less than half the state. Compare that to Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming's potential if connectivity can be restored w/ the proper corridors. As for prey supplies, take a look at the Jackson Elk Refuge and the feedlots around Yellowstone for starters...On Gray wolves under attack, groups want them re-listed posted 1 year, 7 months ago 21 Responses

  • speaking of depressants

    Jonah: most definitely a temporary problem

    Did they finally jail, beat, and terrorize enough of those pesky tribal leaders and union organizers in Chile to make the nitrate barons feel secure? Concerning your enlightened position on the bourgeoisie, you might find this an interesting read: Chilean IWW Under the "White Terror" of Chilean Bourgeoisie
    http://www.iww.org/culture/articles/jan1921.shtml
    The reference to farmers going back to manure, is Gristmill's typical Green Bourgeois Wishful Thinking.

    Are you saying you have an issue w/ organic agriculture? Ever hear of compost? Industrial agriculture waste? Wastewater sludge?
    fertilizers is a temporary problem. Gristmill's wish that we use less of them is a dangerous, but luckily superfluous bourgeois wish

    That's a relief. I was starting to worry that over half our rivers might become swimmable again or that the Dead Zone might start to shrink...luckily the rest of the jaded country-at-large you're so in touch with is creating far greater demand for organicsOn Nitrogen fertilizer is in short supply posted 1 year, 7 months ago 53 Responses

  • not blaming God

    I say it's the vanity of people that believe in religious doctrines (written by men) giving them dominion over all life on this planet. On On God and gas posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • a regular comedian

    I already responded in the other thread. You and the rest of the over-generalizing, anti-"biofuel" brigade keep making ridiculous, blanket statements which are becoming seriously boorish.On What's causing the sudden run-up in food prices? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 39 Responses

  • free barbeque at tonight's pray-in

    I sure wouldnt want to be standing next to him and the pumps when that heavenly bolt strikes.

    Aaaanyway, haven't you seen "The Reaping?" All them frogs and such are sinners who were never gonna make the cut to begin with. The rapture's already doin away w/ the bats and bees...

    Ok i better stop now before i bring down a bolt myself  ;)On On God and gas posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • The Peace Movement

    He's certainly been vocal about them and the NY Times. You kind of have to wonder how much he's in touch w/ the average man though. His haunts in this country are MIT, Berkeley,....On McCain, Clinton support summer gas-tax rollback posted 1 year, 7 months ago 17 Responses

  • question

    Can anyone tell me how many times "free-trade" came up in the debates? I heard climate change drew a whopping 10 of 3,000 questions.On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 7 months ago 34 Responses

  • Michael...well said!

    The only alternative I can see is to find some way to constrain the rich person from bidding on the steak or the tank of gas until all the poor people are fed. This means that the free market fails to find the optimum.

    According to standpoint theory, you must first start w/ the least advantaged members of society to identify a baseline.

    John Rawls' posed the "original position" and the "veil of ignorance" thought experiment in his "Theory of Justice." I find it extremely helpful in these situations. One could certainly have an academic discussion that our Bill of Rights provides for the inviolability of the individual and equal opportunity (within certain political borders), but if you've ever been to the deep South, or even heard of NAFTA, you know a practical debate is much tougher.
    On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 7 months ago 34 Responses

  • icu814me

    I don't think the forum here really wants to entertain alternate opinions or points of view.

    Accept my apology. I'm not trying to drive anyone away, but I still find much of what you said very insensitive to the many victims of US companies posting record profits. People that have Porsche's on their street imho arent in much of a position to talk about other post-colonial countries who's average citizen lives on less than $2 a day. This is especially true when you live in a country that has taken part in destabilizing atrocities in the others' backyards (already been hashed out on grist elsewhere).

    We're building more efficient engines. We'll develop ways of capturing braking energy, we'll have an increase in natural gas vehicles on the road, we'll reduce our driving, we'll ship more by train or boat, we'll telecommute, we'll build nuclear plants...

    I dont even know where to begin....not touchin nukulur here. CAFE standards...look for it in recent grist posts. When WILL we do all these wonderful things you say? You make an awful lot of suppositions considering our current role in global emissions.On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 7 months ago 34 Responses

  • lol

    On On God and gas posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • rimart01

    The "green revolution" you speak of is more an indicator of a problem than a problem its own. Considering the broad base and political power it wields today, I dont think you can safely say they're just a bunch of wingnuts anymore. They may be reactionary at times, but look what they are up against.

    In the modern world, we're faced w/ the endlessly daunting task of finding secular ethical/moral principles with the overlapping consensus of a plurality never known before. It's a beautiful and scary thing.

    Bearing plurality in mind, we must assume that a multi-level, organic approach to education, outreach, conservation, and preservation will be required. Dont be so quick to count out the folks arguing for the inviolability of animals....they arent so small in number anymore. Neither are the backwoods-revival, snake charmers for that matter....On Independent report calls for major reforms to industrial animal farming posted 1 year, 7 months ago 15 Responses

  • ch-ching $$$

    Pangolin: Hey, I got a great idea. We set up a sand bourse down at the beach and collect trading tax credits from the government.

    oooooo....any offset action i could get in on before it becomes an additionality?
    On Unlike McCain and Clinton, Obama would have us capitulate to Gas Price Terror posted 1 year, 7 months ago 16 Responses

  • hellfire & brimstone

    Ron Gilette, leader of the ID Anti-wolf Coalition is responsible for my favorite spiritual quote as of late. "If the devil had an animal..."
    On On God and gas posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • wolverine, peep this

    Noam Chomsky, The Political System in the USA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk8pxyAWTBkOn McCain, Clinton support summer gas-tax rollback posted 1 year, 7 months ago 17 Responses

  • re: 2,000 is more than it seems

    Minnesota has more than 2,000, and that's just one state compared to 3 in the N. Rocky Mtn. regionOn Gray wolves under attack, groups want them re-listed posted 1 year, 7 months ago 21 Responses

  • not all trappers have it in for wolves

    http://www.earthjustice.org/library/features/hoppy-the-st ...

    Hoppy: The Story of Wolf 253
    Wolf 253 was one of the first casualties as the federal government stripped Endangered Species protections for gray wolves in the northern Rockies. But this particular wolf was unique.

    .....watch a local network channelâ€TMs piece: KSL, Salt Lake City "Beloved â€~Wolf 253â€TM killed in Wyoming"

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2994073 On Gray wolves under attack, groups want them re-listed posted 1 year, 7 months ago 21 Responses

  • quite a shame

    hinhankola: I believe that 300 was the original enviromental impact studies goal that was sent to anyone requesting it and open for public comment period

    Yea, and majority or respondents to the last public comment period on WY's draft management plan said they didnt agree w/ the plan and that the number of breeding pairs was too low. I'm not sure of your point? We know who makes the decisions around there (Wyoming Stock Growers Association), and it is not WYG&F.On Gray wolves under attack, groups want them re-listed posted 1 year, 7 months ago 21 Responses

  • guerrilla marketing or over-compensating?

    Should i be reciting myself as gospel as you seem to enjoy doing so much? How many times can one person advertise themself in one 24-hr period? If it weren't so funny, it might be tiresome.

    http://www.theoildrum.com/uploads/2305/Khosla_Figure_2.JP ...On Let's raze more Amazon rainforest! posted 1 year, 7 months ago 24 Responses

  • David, why do you hate freedom so much?

    "Constitution of Independence as written by Jefferson Davis"
    ROFLOn Unlike McCain and Clinton, Obama would have us capitulate to Gas Price Terror posted 1 year, 7 months ago 16 Responses

  • cheers

    On Dr. Bronner's says competitors aren't really organic posted 1 year, 7 months ago 3 Responses

  • great post

    The food price crisis is mostly from oil prices. I hope most of us know that by now.

    Interesting that Exxon posted record profits of any corporation in US history the last two years in a row. Did anyone catch the Press Conference after the Valdez spill case finally made it to the Supreme Court, 19 years after the spill? One-fifth of the plaintiffs have already died!

    As I've commercial fished in Prince William Sound and motored a 150 footer around Bligh Reef a number of times, I have an extra personal interest in seeing these guys get what's coming to them! Quite a shame though that the 5 billion in damages they've been appealing, once a year's profit for this Texas giant, is now only 3 weeks worth. It's not even 5 bil anymore...was cut to 2.5 by their appeal.On Food prices are high, and so are Big Ag's profits posted 1 year, 7 months ago 6 Responses

  • too academic

    I'm certainly willing to allow for a little extra ecological degradation (ethanol) in countries that are finally taking control of their own governments and economies. For us to critique them, when we have had such a hand in their strife, is just plain wrong. It is operating on the assumption that we own the world!On Thought of the day: American foreign policy posted 1 year, 7 months ago 14 Responses

  • regurgitate much?

    It turns out ethanol produces twice the GHG of gasoline.

    Are you part parrot? You keep repeating the same bogus stats. I saw someone else call you on this habit of yours when I first joined. Apparently it's founded.On What's causing the sudden run-up in food prices? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 39 Responses

  • thanks for proving my last point 8)

    On Food vs. fuel edition posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • ahhh....semantics

    "Shaw's list of unreasonable men would have included such luminaries as Ghandi"

    I love that interview w/ Ghandi where he was asked, "what do you think about Western Civilization?" His reply, "I think it would be a good idea."On Finance, energy, and the environment: markets and opportunities posted 1 year, 7 months ago 8 Responses

  • all state gov's the same?

    Anyone who thinks that "legislative specificity" nets you less interpretation and judgments by "bureaucrats" has obviously never worked in government.

    That seems a bit presumptive to me, generalizing state governments as such...

    I lived in MT when the speed limit was "reasonable and prudent judgement"....now its "70". Which seems more specific to you and which leaves itself to more interpretation?On You can't achieve the three goals of climate policy at once posted 1 year, 7 months ago 17 Responses

  • *sigh*

    icu814me: You use taxes, subsidies, and tariffs to attack my argument, but then back away from advocating their abolishment. Please be clear.

    I already illustrated how your "argument" was completely off-base. Why would I want to waste more of my time on it? I'm a little too busy dealing w/ productive issues to help you rationalize you and your Porsche driving neighbors' lifestyles and love of "sweet crude."

    Would you prefer this simply remains a club of like minded people patting each other on the back?

    Absolutely not! Even more, I dont want to have to wade through pages of what I consider spam. You're expressing your love for the no.1 cause of the problem this thread is trying to deal with...the food price crisis. I could characterize that kind of perspective quite a few ways. Out of respect to David et al, I will refrain.
    On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 7 months ago 34 Responses

  • lol

    greyflcn: Brazilian sugarcane provides 45% of their gasoline.

    You might want to think a little more carefully before you type.

    biod: Rather than just make a declaritive statement, show us.

    Because the exorbant spending of the current pseudo-con admin is well known.

    What about that hilarious 167 year assertion of yours? Can you please give it to us as it appeared in Science or anywhere? You have taken it WAY out of context from the magazine article you cited.

    You can cite 3 year old studies done by bloggers and speculate on future expansion all you want. It doesnt change the success that Brazil has had w/ ethanol! As for Jank being biased, I hope so. I love that they have become powerful enough to stand up to our "free-trade" machine (FTAA).  8)On Biofuels loophole in 2007 energy bill grandfathers in pollution posted 1 year, 7 months ago 6 Responses

  • more gore.....

    Ok, I'd rather not comment on ole Al, but this issue could definitely use more visibility. Havent seen the film yet. Anyone else catch Dave Cooper's Mountaintop Removal Roadshow?On Notable quotable posted 1 year, 7 months ago 1 Response

  • icu814me

    didn't really have anything to do with my points by example

    "points by example?" I think you mean anecdotal nonsense. It would be a serious error for you to assume we agree on anything.

    What is a fan of "sweet crude" doing in here? Makes one wonder....On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 7 months ago 34 Responses

  • far-less-than-amazing drx

    Except that your "normal circumstances" basically don't exist in the current real world.

    Actually, they exist all over the world.

    http://energy.gov/media/BiofuelsMythVFact.pdf

    MYTH:  In terms of emissions, biofuels emit the same amount as gasoline or more.
    FACT:   Biofuels burn cleaner than gasoline, resulting in fewer greenhouse gas emissions, and are fully biodegradable, unlike some fuel additives.

    MYTH: Ethanol cannot be produced from corn in large enough quantities to make a real difference without disrupting food and feed supplies.
    FACT: Corn-based ethanol is only one source of biofuel. As we address the technical hurdles associated with the efficient and cost-effective production of biofuels, ethanol will increasingly play a more significant role.On Let's raze more Amazon rainforest! posted 1 year, 7 months ago 24 Responses

  • pot calling the kettle black?

    I've met plenty of folks who live in trailers that dont come close to making the logical leaps you do..."studpid is as stupid does my momma always used to say" heheyOn If biofuels are sustainable, we should be able to show it posted 1 year, 7 months ago 26 Responses

  • cant see the disease for the symptoms

    I have a feeling that about half the predjudice against geoengineering in general comes from "guilt by association" from this idea and perhaps a few others like it.

    You might be right. I tend to think skepticism is warranted where so many known remedies closer to the source exist. You'll certainly have my attention...just keep the colorful metaphors comin'  8)On Are fixing the climate and the ozone layer mutually exclusive? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 15 Responses

  • BYOB! Brew Your Own Beer! ;)

    Nothing like trying to work out the mystery behind a good Belgian Ale, and maybe borrowing a little yeast from one of their bottles hehe

    Note: At one point, A.B. wasnt using organic hops at all in that "Wild Hops" shwill.

    http://www.organicconsumers.org/bytes/ob115.cfm

    On the hops issue, the USDA was heavily lobbied by the beer giant Anheuser-Busch, who claimed that organic hops are not commercially available and has been advertising its "Wild Hops Lager" as "the perfect organic experience" using conventional hops grown with chemical pesticides and synthetic fertilizers. Thanks in part to a USDA petition signed by over 20,000 Organic Bytes readers like you, Anheuser-Busch has announced it will now start using 100% organic hops for its organic beer line.

    ALERT: Despite Anheuser-Busch responding to public pressure and negative publicity in the press, the USDA apparently still plans to officially rank organic hops as "commercially unavailable." This will allow beer-makers to use chemically grown hops in their beers labeled as "organic", instead of supporting family farmers who are currently growing organic hops.

    On A tasting of seven organic beers posted 1 year, 7 months ago 22 Responses

  • one caveat

    I disagree w/ the notion that mid-sized farms are too big for direct sales. We were selling 200+ shares annually, some of which were picked up weekly at the Farmers Market.On To make local food more accessible, time to revive mid-sized farms posted 1 year, 7 months ago 10 Responses

  • Nice piece!

    I was a farm manager on a certified organic farm of this scale...direct sales through CSA and farmers market as well as supplying several retailers. More folks need to put pressure on their grocers to buy from farms of this scale! Taking your business where smaller scale farms are represented is one part, but we must communicate this to the larger retailers as well.

    On a side, many people are just too picky about produce. One blemish and they turn their nose up. You gotta love the person who comes up to the market table and says "i just dont trust corn w/o a little earworm damage."

    Personally, I'd rather have a fresh, ripe tomatoe w/ a few marks than an immaculate one picked and shipped green then gassed to ripen. From personal experience, this kind of expectation of "quality" is the greatest roadblock to smaller organic farms entering the retail markets. I was told by a couple of retailers that the produce had to be able to maintain its quality after being shipped to regional warehouses and then back. Yeesh!On To make local food more accessible, time to revive mid-sized farms posted 1 year, 7 months ago 10 Responses

  • Bronner isnt setting any standard

    He, and others, are trying to keep the standards we already have from being undermined.

    From the Organic Consumers Association:
    http://www.organicconsumers.org/bodycare/index.cfm
    Coming Clean: Campaigning for Organic Integrity in Bodycare Products  

    "The word "organic" is not properly regulated on personal care products (example: toothpaste, shampoo, lotion, etc.) as it is on food products, unless the product is certified by the USDA National Organic Program."

    "Due to this lax regulation, many personal care products have the word "organic" in their brand name or otherwise on their product label, but unless they are USDA certified, the main cleansing ingredients in particular are usually made with conventional not agricultural material, combined with petrochemical compounds."

    "To help remove some of this misleading organic labeling from the market, in late March 2008, the OCA and Dr.Bronner's filed Cease and Desist Letters to many of the bogus "organic" brands who utilize conventional and/or petrochemical material instead of organic material in making their main cleansing ingredients, some of whom even tested positive for the carcinogen 1,4-Dioxane in this study."On Dr. Bronner's says competitors aren't really organic posted 1 year, 7 months ago 3 Responses

  • biofuelies

    almost as obnoxious as folks who make false claims about GHG emissions using misleading over-generalizations...

    nowhere near as obnoxious as purists who think their own emissions smell better than everyone else's  ;)On What's causing the sudden run-up in food prices? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 39 Responses

  • dooooomed, doomed i tell you ;)

    Regarding the population issue...good luck w/ that...reference the debilitating Sierra Club Board election when that issue took the forefront...

    What about cultural carrying capacity? For a moment, forget the 7 billion we have currently. The debate on whether we can sustain such a number is endless. A more prudent question is, could the Earth sustain even 1/2 that number at current US living standards? Per capita consumption!

    I mentioned the east coast oyster collapse in another thread. It is a situation where it made more cents to bring in an invasive, pollution tolerant species from Japan than to clean up the environmental damage that caused the collapse in the first place. One of the most contested aspects of the issue involved the hi-tec pens that would supposedly keep the invasive oysters from spreading. The geoengineering project cited in this thread seems analogous to the oyster remedy in as much as it is a bandaid on internal bleeding...a toxic bandaid at that.

    "swallow-a-cat-to-catch-a-rat" ROFLOn Are fixing the climate and the ozone layer mutually exclusive? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 15 Responses

  • hey now pangolin

    "Sell the bass boat unless you have a diesel outboard."
    I'm using my bass boat as a volunteer deliverin device / garbage scowl for a lake cleanup this weekend  8POn If biofuels are sustainable, we should be able to show it posted 1 year, 7 months ago 26 Responses

  • biofuel bandwagon

    JMG: So it will always be difficult to make "fresh" biofuels pay off

    I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record around the blog, but "biofuels" do not equate to only corn ethanol, whether you classify them by the geologic record (fresh, ancient, etc) or whatever.

    JMG: Most of the biofuels industry has implicitly (and often explicitly) conceded the point by agreeing that corn ethanol is unsustainable while trying to shift the discussion over to "next generation ethanol." (Talking about the ethanol we don't have rather than the ethanol we do have.)

    JAMES HANSEN, director of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Goddard Institute for Space Studies says, "biofuels can play a major part in our energy future....Biofuel investment should proceed with input from scientists and conservationists, because some industry and government biofuel production plans would clear more forest for plantations of oil palm and soy with consequences for wildlife and wildlands."
    We should have a much better idea soon w/ cellulosic ethanol. Pilot projects are already under way.On If biofuels are sustainable, we should be able to show it posted 1 year, 7 months ago 26 Responses

  • not much of an analogy

    icu814me wrote: I don't have a Porshe, but it's not because the guy living down the road has "mine". The guy down the road is a doctor, or lawyer, or professional poker player. His production value is much higher than mine. There are many reasons for this, some individual and some infrastructural.

    First, you're not trading w/ the Porsche owner down the street. Second, there are no subsidies or tariffs b/w you two. Third, he hasnt used subsidized, artificially cheap product to dominate the market.On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 7 months ago 34 Responses

  • redundant

    Your arguement still rests on land-use-change. One more time: Where current cropland is used, corn and sugar ethanol, with all inputs considered, have been shown to emit less GHG's than gasoline.

    I could certainly comment on sustainable farming practices that would minimize: 1) the loss of carbon stored in the soil, as well as 2) the amount of N inputs. I'd rather not blow this post out though. For the sake of preventing further erroneous blanket statements, I'm just reiterating that under normal circumstances, ethanol emits less GHG than gasoline.On Let's raze more Amazon rainforest! posted 1 year, 7 months ago 24 Responses

  • convert dem dar tractors to biodiesel 8)

    Switching to organic, animal powered agriculture, is impractical for most in the short term.

    I like most of what you're saying. Just want to add that when I used to manage a low-input organic farm, I usually went by the title of "tractor jockey." Organic Standards stance on actively aerated compost tea; imo that's what is impractical.On What's causing the sudden run-up in food prices? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 39 Responses

  • Sean

    Reading that older post of yours, I definitely feel compelled to say over-complication is bad  ;)

    The additionality debate and the gap between electric and thermal output leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Personally, I was for a Carbon Tax for years. Seems ideal if simplicity is your goal. Honestly, I'm tired of dragging that debate though the mud. The financial intermediaries frenzied by visions of cap-and-profit have effectively locked up the debate for so long, I'm now leaning towards expediency w/ NRDC in spite of my intuition.

    If the debacle w/ additionality & offsets is any sort of gauge, why would I trust a system simple enough to allow for even more maneuvering by the intermediaries, prospectors, and lawyers.On Two simple, effective, and diametrically opposed climate policy proposals posted 1 year, 7 months ago 51 Responses

  • Sean, you lost me

    I havent said anything about complication being bad. I'm concerned w/ over-simplification in this instance.On Two simple, effective, and diametrically opposed climate policy proposals posted 1 year, 7 months ago 51 Responses

  • oil & gas

    Lets not forget the hodge-podge of slush funds, loan guarantees, tax credits, and royalty holidays that the oil and gas industry enjoys.

    "Though impossible to capture every government support to energy, even partial evaluations indicate the large scale of subsidies to this sector. In a paper for the the National Commission on Energy Policy Koplow (2004) estimated federal subsidies at between $40 and $69 billion per year in 2003 (2006$)."

    "Earth Track's preliminary subsidy estimates for 2006 peg federal support at between $49 and $100 billion per year. This is well above the 2003 estimate. Neither the 2003 or the 2006 estimate includes credit subsidies to energy enterprises, which would boost the totals by a few billion dollars more."

    "the distribution of the subsidies across energy sources in 2006 continues to favor conventional energy. More than 50 percent of the total benefits the oil and gas sectors. Nuclear power is the next largest beneficiary at 12%, benefiting from a range of new subsidies aimed at new plant construction. Subsidization of ethanol is on par to support of all other renewables combined (at roughly $5.6 billion/year), though this may in part be due to more comprehensive recent assessments of ethanol than other renewables."

    http://www.earthtrack.net/earthtrack/library/SubsidyRefor ...
    On Coal and agrofuels win the subsidy sweepstakes posted 1 year, 7 months ago 5 Responses

  • the pork barrel

    I'm no fan of the ethanol subsidies, but I still want to keep it in perspective.

    From the original DOE report:
    Fiscal Year 2007 Electricity Production Subsidies and Support
    Coal - 3.3 bil
    Nuclear - 1.3 bil
    Renewables - 1 bil

    I have to agree w/ a comment in the WSJ blog...

    $1.3B per year for Nuclear is a little misleading don't you think though? The figure should be closer to atleast $10B once you start including all the ancillary "non-weapon" nuclear power programs. If not much higher than that. Just the Price Anderson Act alone is monetized to atleast $4B annually.

    Also from the report:
    Subsidy and Support per Unit of Production (dollars/megawatthour)
    Coal & Refined Coal - 30.3
    Nuclear - 1.6
    Biomass (and biofuels) - 0.9On Coal and agrofuels win the subsidy sweepstakes posted 1 year, 7 months ago 5 Responses

  • the all-mighty markets

    The market is not THE answer for everything. Pangolin mentioned aquaculture. Did the market provide the incentives to clean up the pollution that caused the oyster collapses on the east coast? No! Practically speaking, I dont think its possible. The market's more profitable answer was to bring in an invasive species from Japan. Does the market assess the future potential of invasive species? It hasnt exactly done wonders w/ the zebra mussel.On Two simple, effective, and diametrically opposed climate policy proposals posted 1 year, 7 months ago 51 Responses

  • happy investors, poor consumers

    re: passing costs down to the consumer...
    I tend to think this is a good reason to avoid too much of the simplicity that Sean was referring to in his critique of the Climate Security Act. Too little detail would leave it up to the bureaucrats how to pass on the costs....

    Are we almost there yet, David, are we almost there yet.....I have to go to the bathroom....On Two simple, effective, and diametrically opposed climate policy proposals posted 1 year, 7 months ago 51 Responses

  • non-buttery

    lol...ok that was good  ;)

    I agree with the efficiency bit, but would temper it w/ more cooperation rather than competition. Further still, I would put it to you that even w/ all our advancements in efficiency in recent history, we still continue to set record energy consumption numbers in the face of record droughts! We need to delineate a multi-pronged approach here.On Two simple, effective, and diametrically opposed climate policy proposals posted 1 year, 7 months ago 51 Responses

  • huh?

    could you possibly elaborate?

    that article mentions land-use-change as the bogeyman...a far cry from "growing fuel doubles GHG"On Let's raze more Amazon rainforest! posted 1 year, 7 months ago 24 Responses

  • intelligentsia/aristocracy

    Sean: If your access to saturated fat required you first to feed cattle, shovel out their stalls, milk them, separate the cream and churn the butter, you didn't find yourself for time on a lot of other things.  And at the risk of putting too fine a point on it, you and I would not have the time for this particular conversation

    I think you're examples are a little extreme, but to some extent, sound good to me. 8)

    "There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace." ~Aldo Leopold

    if you accept my premise - namely, that standard of living has always been accompanied by our access to useful energy

    Are you referring to the current standard of living that would require several more Earth's if/when a percent of the rest of the world rises to it's level? Look at the life of Mohandas Gandhi who said "be the change you wish to see." I'd put his eco-footprint against most people in this thread, w/ all their vast knowledge of financial schemes, any day.On Two simple, effective, and diametrically opposed climate policy proposals posted 1 year, 7 months ago 51 Responses

  • couple centuries old, but still relative...

    It is this simplicity that makes the uneducated more effective than the educated when addressing popular audiences. -- Aristotle, RhetoricOn You can't achieve the three goals of climate policy at once posted 1 year, 7 months ago 17 Responses

  • simplicity in politics...

    AndyFrankGO: Why do you need simplicity? How many bills (good or bad) are simple?

    Making this kind of legislation less cumbersome for laypersons is about as important to me as which president i'd rather have a drink with. LOL This is why we have community and trade associations, watchdog groups, etc....also why I am sticking w/ NRDC, NWF, PSR, WWF, WS, and others.

    Ultimately, laypersons aren't the ones who will be responsible for implementation, monitoring, or enforcement. Why is their ability to read the legislation so important? Are you saying that we would save the average-joe-bill-reader trouble by making them sift through the bureaucratic policy and regulation that would filter down from more simplistic legislation? This is no easy grey area to talk about. One thing I know for sure, legislative specificity makes it harder for the bureaucracy to twist policies and regulations.On You can't achieve the three goals of climate policy at once posted 1 year, 7 months ago 17 Responses

  • Academic vs. Realistic

    From Sean's company's website: Turbosteam (a wholly owned subsidiary) believes successful power projects have a single point of coordination, someone responsible for everything from conceptual design to system commissioning. Turbosteam, therefore, combines the expertise of a consulting engineer, banker, manufacturer, and general contractor to ensure that our projects deliver the optimal value to our customers.

    Academically, I see your point where efficiency is concerned. Realistically, I dont think anyone would argue for this more than Enron, one of the original energy traders.On Lieberman-Warner criticism, Part 2 posted 1 year, 7 months ago 18 Responses

  • controversy rather than progress

    ce1907: good idea, but how are you going to get the votes

    Sean: That's simply a question of politics.  I'm not a politician, but don't think it's that hard.

    Sean: we need a full court press to change directions

    Sean:It is sad but true that there is no such thing as perfect legislation, for the simple reason that the democratic process demands compromise.

    I'm sorry Sean, but you're all over the place. This might be why you take so many posts to preach the controversy.On Lieberman-Warner criticism, Part 2 posted 1 year, 7 months ago 18 Responses

  • expediency

    Sean,
    We could apply your political hypothesis to Kyoto. Why havent we been a part of replacing/rearranging those cars? Actually, we have. Despite the fact we pulled out of the treaty, we do still affect its language. We have derailed talks numerous times and pushed for more "flexible" mechanisms like CDM that the financial intermediaries have been drooling over....an enormous loophole for additionality, prospecting, and ultimately, creating counterfeit reduction certificates.

    I'm going w/ Miles and ce1907. For the sake of political expediency and reductions today as opposed to years from now, I like Audubon, Center for International Law, Clean Water Action, Defenders of Wildlife, Earthjustice, Environment America, Environmental Defense, League of Conservation Voters, National Wildlife Federation, Natural Resources Defense Council, Ocean Conservancy, Pew Environment Group, Physicians for Social Responsibility, Sierra Club, Union of Concerned Scientists, The Wilderness Society, and World Wildlife Fund's stance.

    http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080312.asp
    On Lieberman-Warner criticism, Part 1 posted 1 year, 7 months ago 9 Responses

  • public eyes

    is that you ron?On U.S. should back off from biofuels to bring down food prices, says Texas guv posted 1 year, 7 months ago 8 Responses

  • who's holding the stick?

    i should add...they are the same subsidies that displaced the farmers i mentioned in the first place....you know, the ones we now have to spend a few billion more on a border wall for, just because they followed the stick after the carrot was yanked out of their reachOn U.S. should back off from biofuels to bring down food prices, says Texas guv posted 1 year, 7 months ago 8 Responses

  • the magic bullet

    ron,

    Admittedly, corn ethanol is not it. I think most everyone knows that by now. Imho there isnt one. As for the cows and hogs, we could do w/ a hell of a lot less of those methane factories anyway. The percent of the American diet they comprise is wholly unsustainable in many ways, be it caloric efficiency, acres required, GHG's. Its an issue of carrying capacity vs. cultural carrying capacity as I'm sure you're well aware...

    Through their geospatial analysis, the USGS says the dead zone in the Gulf is mostly attributed to corn and soybean farming. How much of this is for ethanol and how much of it is to keep our dominion on the world in effect. We export the majority of the world's corn to all the developing world's displaced farmers, who now cant even afford it, only because of the billions in subsidies that have been in place for a number of years.On U.S. should back off from biofuels to bring down food prices, says Texas guv posted 1 year, 7 months ago 8 Responses

  • spin, perception, and critical thinking

    biodiversivist: starvation gets blamed on "global warming do-gooders"

    I think I can safely say that whoever said that was an idiot.


    Most recently, JMG, one of Grist's guest contributors said, "it's not the oil companies that are going to do us in, it's the well-meaning enviros who think that speaking out against fresh biofuels means that you're a shill for big oil."

    There's plenty of spin on either side of the aisle, with "the two factions of the one business elite party" (Noam Chomsky). My critical thinking alarm immediately goes off when I hear people talking about "biofuels" and following up w/ data on only corn ethanol!On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 7 months ago 34 Responses

  • subsidies for the bovine methane factories

    Admittedly, what we're seeing now is a consequence of some distorted subsidies...

    Most of the land in production in the U.S. goes to produce animal feed, which produces a small fraction as many calories in a luxury crop (meat) as the same land would in producing directly for human consumption.


    With our massive subsidies in place, meat is no more a "luxury crop" than Hardee's is a 4-star dining experience. Not if....when the pork-barrel spending of our tax dollars is reformed, hopefully one of the major upshots will be meat actually becoming more of a luxury crop. Only then will people be more realistic w/ portion sizes and how often they eat it. The cropland that would become available would leave quite an expanse for ethanol from corn, sugar, switchgrass, etc.. I'm not talking about the magic bullet some folks seem to be obsessed with, but I definitely see a valuable component of the sustainable alternative energy stream that will give us the energy independence and clean, healthful environment future generations deserve.On A gap between rich and poor makes free markets fail posted 1 year, 7 months ago 34 Responses

  • amazingdrx

    "Growing fuel doubles the GHG per mile of gas guzzling over oil."
    Just like it tripled food prices in Mexico, right? LOL When are you going to quit w/ this tripe?On Let's raze more Amazon rainforest! posted 1 year, 7 months ago 24 Responses

  • LOL

    "Use this hypothetical devestated cropland to grow corn that is burned as ethanol and it does not store carbon.  let it return to wild plants and it will then return to it's natural place in the cycle as a carbon sink."
    So you're saying that our version of pork-barrel "free-trade" effectively displacing millions of farmers is a good thing? Countries that used to be able to feed themselves, but now cant compete w/ our subsidized, tariff-protected crops, are just victims of "market forces?" I dont think Adam Smith would much approve of such pork-barrel spending in an analysis of "the invisible hand."

    At least you're good for a laugh. So what about the food prices tripling in Mexico b/c of biofuel? Are you not able to back your point up? Your bobbing and weaving is far less than amazing, drx. hehey ROFLOn Food vs. fuel edition posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • greyflcn

    sorry, but i dont think i'll be visiting your site lol....anyway, i was not thinking of catalytic converters rofl...i'm talking about improvements from a percentage of ethanol being required by law, especially during winter months....

    the only way corn ethanol emits more GHG's is when it involves deforestation or grassland destruction or when it's made w/ energy from coal w/ no carbon capture....On What's causing the sudden run-up in food prices? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 39 Responses

  • greyflcn

    How about some data? The only way corn ethanol (notice i didnt say "biofuel") produces more GHG's is when it involves the destruction of native ecosystems.

    Mexico has plenty of farmland going to waste now that our carrot-and-stick notion of "free-trade" has "sold their campesinos up the Rio Grande" and spurred unprecedented levels of immigration.

    You can blame many countries and their "war vets" for the deforestation and destruction of wildlife for bush meat. If you will step back and look though, you might just see our hand in those wars. How about Chile with Kissinger & CIA's backing Pinochet for instance? That wasnt too long after the secret bombing in Cambodia, around the time of the last great quagmire, Vietnam.

    To a huge extent, you give up the right to speak academically about a country's use of natural resources when you live in one that has profited so greatly from the other's strife and cheap capital.On Food vs. fuel edition posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • amazingdrx

    That article said nothing about how much of the price rise is attributed to ethanol...

    You want to know what's causing the problem in Mexico that's compelled the Dept of Homeland Security to ask for exclusion from enviro and social laws w/ the border wall construction? Try and "free-trade" (NAFTA, CAFTA, etc) fueled by billions in pork-barrel ag subsidies.On Food vs. fuel edition posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • laughable

    "loophole in the 2007 energy bill that renders meaningless most of the climate safeguards for corn ethanol that Democrats have touted." LOL...I would suggest you take a look at levels of ag subsidies before the neo-con's compared to now

    Could you please tell me where you found this...or what it even means...."corn ethanol takes 167 years to produce enough greenhouse-gas savings to make it as green as regular old oil." That figure was regarding deforestation, not oil.

    In your Time magazine article, Brazil is cited as "an exemplar of the allure of biofuels. Sugar growers here have a greener story to tell than do any other biofuel producers. They provide 45% of Brazil's fuel (all cars in the country are able to run on ethanol) on only 1% of its arable land. They've reduced fertilizer use while increasing yields, and they convert leftover biomass into electricity. Marcos Jank, the head of their trade group, urges me not to lump biofuels together: 'Grain is good for bread, not for cars. But sugar is different.'"

    I'm getting a bit tired myself of people jumping on the anti-"biofuel" wagon when they're only talking about corn ethanol myself.On Biofuels loophole in 2007 energy bill grandfathers in pollution posted 1 year, 7 months ago 6 Responses

  • not suprised

    I guess I should expect this from the state with its hand already the deepest in the cookie jar...err...pork barrel. Texas is the no.1 agricultural subsidy recipient in the country.....$16.2 billion from 1995-2006.....10% of their recipients received 77% of the payments.
    http://farm.ewg.org/farm/region.php?fips=48000On U.S. should back off from biofuels to bring down food prices, says Texas guv posted 1 year, 7 months ago 8 Responses

  • spinning makes you dizzy....

    someone's definitely sniffing something....

    amazingdrx wrote: "based on several studies featuring the doubling of GHG from substituting ethanol for gasoline, and more information indicating that grain prices tripling because of corn for ethanol"

    could we see those studies please? heheyOn Food vs. fuel edition posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • biodiversivist

    Its pretty obvious who i'm arguing with. I've seen three posts from the same guy railing on "biofuels", w/ ethanol being the only specific one cited. What about food industry waste? What about switchgrass & cellulosic ethanol and all the new "recycling" opportunities opened up there?

    Am I a proponent of ethanol and its subsidies? In its current form, NO. I will not however sit idly by while it's causes/effects are dangled as a distraction from deeper, further-reaching issues....our bureaucrats' and their corporate handlers' notion of globalization and "free trade" through billions of dollars in crop subsidies. I saw "neoliberal policies" blamed by Tom. As I recall, it was the pseudo-con's who got downright rabid about all the provisions for sustainable alternatives and R&D that liberals wanted in the Energy Bill. They dangled ethanol out there and said you better at least take this or we'll pull it out too and you'll get nothing......

    On a side, I have lived in places that were once among the worst cities for air quality in the nation until an ethanol requirement was instated. You dont even want me to get into current policy effets on the Conservation Reserve Program and increasing petrochemical inputs on sensitive, marginal lands.On What's causing the sudden run-up in food prices? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 39 Responses

  • good luck....gonna need it....

    DOT is a juggernaut...just tell me who's leading the suit...where do i send my check?On Governors rally against dirty Bush car plan posted 1 year, 7 months ago 1 Response

  • hrmmm.....

    sheez...how many posts do you have on here railing on biofuels?

    i have yet to see you mention our porkbarrel politics and ag subsidies? you are doing your credibility serious harm my friend....

    you mentioned that Haiti used to produce most of its own food and then went on to say the recent turn for them is because "Corrupt governments, cheered on by the IMF and World Bank, ripped open agriculture markets to low-cost foreign competition"....to clarify for those that may not realize: we are that "corrupt government" and the billions of our tax dollars that subsidize a small percentage of the ag elite in this country are the the "low-cost foreign competition"....

    http://www.democracynow.org/2008/4/24/the_us_role_in_hait ...

    A billion dollars a year of taxpayer money goes to rice farmers in the United States, plus we have a tariff. We have three different subsidies, three different programs that do that, plus we have a tariff that adds between three and 24 percent protection for our rice farmers. And as a result, the rich and powerful country of the United States, along with other rich and powerful countries in the world, have just really bullied these small countries into accepting our rice. And as the rice from the United States came in--they even called it "Miami rice" and some call it the invasion of Miami rice--that the rice flooded in at low or below cost--free or below cost and destroyed the ability of farmers in Haiti to be able to grow rice. On What's causing the sudden run-up in food prices? posted 1 year, 7 months ago 39 Responses

  • perspective

    "because these are people who are walking their talk"

    that's what many said about Enron when they were revolutionizing the energy trade......

    not to rail on interdisciplinary, "nontraditional" stakeholder building, but i'd be real interested to see some of these folks' ecological footprints....On Finance, energy, and the environment: markets and opportunities posted 1 year, 7 months ago 8 Responses

  • super size me

    in regards to deforestation....how about a comparison of acres converted to biofuels vs acres used for livestock and their feed to sustain the "super size me diet" and the epidemic of obesity in the US....and of course all the bad knees, twisted ankles, and diabetes that ensue...

    so far as their dissent over FTAA goes...lets hear it for Brazil, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Cuba, et al

    8)On Food vs. fuel edition posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • more biofuel rants......

    "ethanol's impact should not be overstated. The International Food Policy Research Institute, which is critical of ethanol, pins about 25 to 33 percent of the recent price rise on biofuels; the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization guesses about 10 to 15 percent." washington post

    i'm not looking for an easy scapegoat like some, but if i had to point a finger....the US has spent $177.6 billion of our tax dollars on ag subsidies from 1995-2006. Among subsidy recipients, ten percent collected 74 percent, amounting to $130.6 billion over 12 years. Add the corporate elite's and the pseudo-neo-conservative's notion of "free trade" (NAFTA, CAFTA, etc) into the equation and there is no mystery whatsover at the wall we're now building at our border, the food crisis, or price hikes....
    On Food vs. fuel edition posted 1 year, 7 months ago 29 Responses

  • the masters of spin

    from the George Bush Skewl of Gubment and Publik Survis @ Texas A&M:

    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/action/showPdf?submitPDF ...

    "more informed respondents both feel less personally responsible for global warming, and also show less concern for global warming. We also find that confidence in scientists has unexpected effects: respondents with high confidence in scientists feel less responsible for global warming, and also show less concern for global warming."

    "Research on educational attainment and income indicates that persons of higher socioeconomic status are less likely to perceive climate change as risky.(20) Similarly, persons knowledgeable of the causes, properties, and effects of climate change have lower levels of risk perception."

    "Conservatives and Republicans show more concern for global warming and climate change than liberals and Democrats"

    "With regard to demographic variables, research consistently shows that women and racial minorities are more fearful of the risks of climate change.(19,20) In the risk perception literature, this phenomenon is called the "white male effect."(21,22,23) Higher risk perception among racial minorities is said to be a function of greater environmental hardship and distress--that is, minorities are disproportionately exposed to ecological hazards."On American Petroleum Institute ad promotes climate catastrophe posted 1 year, 7 months ago 5 Responses

  • disneyfication

    oh boy...what species are they going to anthropomorphize next? be vigilant all you watchdogs of mechanized recreation...coming soon...Walt Yellowstone World....Grand Disney Canyon World...On Walt Disney Co. gets into nature posted 1 year, 7 months ago 8 Responses

  • ethanol...the usual suspect

    lets be fair....oil prices are to blame far more than ethanol for recent price increases...you want to pick on someone, how about the top 10% of ag subsidy recipients who received the majority of the billions of these pork dollars in the last decade....how about NAFTA, CAFTA, etc?....how about the fact the aid we supply to countries in food crisis has to be bought from our pork barrel?On Worldwide resistance to GMOs dwindle as food bills rise posted 1 year, 7 months ago 7 Responses