MAM’s Recent Comments

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  Tibet continued

  Patrick, I apologize if I gave the impression I thought America was any better than China. Not at all. I'm just as opposed to American imperialism as I am to Chinese. The same arguments I would apply to Iraq go for Tibet. The nature of the government that existed before the invasion did not justify the invasion, let alone all the horrors that have been committed since. All the good intentioned ameliorations you mention and which the US tries to implement in Iraq are trivial in comparison with the initial and ongoing harm. Whatever you may think of Buddhism, surely you believe that people ought to be able to practice their religion freely? Or maybe not.

  As far as the larger point you make about "feudal leaders," I can only say that there are hundreds of indigenous groups all over the world who are fighting development and the destruction of their cultures: from the Arctic to the Amazon to the Pacific. You don't have to be a feudal overlord to want to maintain your traditional way of life. I support a wonderful organization called Global Response, which supports environmental activists worldwide, who often come from people living in agrarian or even hunter gatherer communities. These are ordinary people who risk their lives to try to stop dams, deforestation, mining and pollution, etc., so that their people can continue to live in the way they have for centuries or millenia. If everyone was so gungho about working at Walmart, surely they wouldn't resist all that our wonderful civilization has to offer. (And when I say "our" I mean both American and Chinese.)
  RosemaryOn Can industrial civilization really become sustainable? Should it? posted 3 years, 3 months ago 40 Responses

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  Tibet and Development

  Actually this Tibet question relates in an important way to the larger one of whether development benefits or hurts "the poor." Think of all the ethnic groups in the world whose native lands would not now be developed industrially if it had not been for invasion and conquest by others. This list is endless. Tibet is one. Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are others. Was it worth it? My guess is that the people who were killed, raped, tortured, imprisoned, starved, forcibly expelled, forced to flee, or otherwise made to change their lifestyle against their will would say no. Of course, if you have cancer in Tibet today, you might be glad to have decent medical treatment available that wouldn't have been in the old Tibetan world.

  As many have written in this thread, nothing is permanent. Some ethnic groups, like the former Soviet ones mentioned above, have succeeded in gaining independence, and Tibet may also. If Tibet is someday a wealthy independent nation, will it all have been worth it? I suppose the Irish might say yes (some of them). I can't think of many others who would.

  As a Quaker, I believe that people should be as free as possible to decide their own destiny, whether it looks like wealth or poverty to others. If you don't want development, you shouldn't have to have it. This is, ironically, why I agree with Patrick that McDonough is preferable to Jensen--because the changes he tries to make are voluntary and concrete (as opposed to structural.) Likewise, I agree that what we all need to do is make small, real changes to the world immediately around us, rather than developing big dangerous plans for the end of civilization.
  RosemaryOn Can industrial civilization really become sustainable? Should it? posted 3 years, 3 months ago 40 Responses

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  Tibet

  Patrick wrote, "Tibet is part of China, so I am not sure what you are talking about.  Do Americans invade Puerto Rica or Hawaii when they go there?  Samoa?  Virgin Islands?  Marinaras?"

  Please see this link for a history of Tibet:
  http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/tibet.html

  Tibet was invaded by China in 1949 and has been subjected to colonization, displacement, and all the attendant horrors ever since.

  Of course, the US invaded and colonized most of the places you mention. It just happened further back in history, and we don't happen to be imprisoning and torturing any of their leaders without trial at the moment. Nor do we plan to move massive numbers of our population there and displace the current residents.
  Rosemary
  On Can industrial civilization really become sustainable? Should it? posted 3 years, 3 months ago 40 Responses

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  Driving to the gym

  So often these debates waste everybody's energy, when most of us here are really on the same page in our goals and beliefs about how people ought to live. The original argument about "the paradox of biking" was bogus from the start.

  Where's the evidence that enviros who start biking instead of driving will live longer anyway? I have many slender, healthy friends, who consider themselves pro-environment, who drive miles to the gym every week. If they rode bikes for all their transportation instead it wouldn't change their life expectancy because they're already fit.

  These analyses of relative impacts of various human activities are rarely carefully researched or well thought out. They're junk science. Common sense makes a better guide.
  RosemaryOn Repeat after me: Humans are part of the environment posted 3 years, 4 months ago 18 Responses

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  Other ways to pay

  Even if your farmer's market doesn't take EBT, many of the farmers may be willing to barter or exchange some amount of farm labor for food. If you are able to get to the farm, there are many ways to help out. CSA's, especially, often offer discounts in exchange for labor.On Umbra on farmers' markets and food stamps posted 3 years, 5 months ago 9 Responses