For those of you who missed it, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz hit the talk show circuit last week to talk up the latest incarnation of the Chevy Volt (more on his boneheaded climate change comments here and here). The marketing goal is to create the public perception that the Volt is an electric car (get it, volt?), to differentiate it from competitors like the Prius, which are mere hybrids. It may work, and I'm OK with that as long as it sells low-emission cars. Look at how successful the car industry was at getting us to covet station wagons with oversize tires by calling them "sport utility vehicles."
The Volt will not be an electric car. It will be a hybrid, specifically a plug-in hybrid. As with all other plug-in hybrids, it will have extra batteries that can accept a charge from the grid that will propel it without using the gasoline engine for some distance dictated by battery size and driving conditions. But once that charge is used up, it will drop into hybrid mode and stay there until you can plug it in again. The public doesn't -- and if GM is successful, probably never will -- understand that the Volt is just a plug-in hybrid. It will not fully recharge its batteries using the gasoline engine. An attempt to do that would wreck its gas mileage.
My beef here is that GM is using smoke and mirrors to convince the public that the Volt is a revolutionary new car when it really isn't. The reality is that GM is still years away from producing something to compete with the Japanese hybrids and at $40,000 a copy it is guaranteed not to have mass appeal. Toyota plans to be producing a million hybrids a year by 2010. Nobody knows what mileage the Volt will get when it drops into hybrid mode after the grid charge is used up, but it will probably be pretty lackluster.
I watched Lutz explaining to a talk-show host why the Volt is going to cost so much. Lutz pointed out that if you are going to have a regular engine with a gas tank and an electric motor with a battery, you will have to pay "twice as much." Which all sounds very logical but, oddly enough, just a few weeks ago Honda revealed its plan to sell a hybrid in 2009 that will cost significantly less than a Prius -- around $18,000. You could buy two of these for the price of a single Volt. This is evidence that the price difference is no longer in the hybrid drive train. From Scientific American:
The new Insight will be powered by the latest iteration of Honda's Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid technology, which will be significantly cheaper than its current systems, according to press reports. The IMA is a parallel hybrid system with an electric motor mounted between the engine and transmission to act as a starter motor, engine balancer and traction motor assist. The new, more cost-efficient powertrain accounts for the low price tag, making it potentially the most affordable hybrid model on the 2009 market.
Carmakers have all figured out by now that its distinctive look is part of the Prius success story. Part of the fun of driving a high-mileage hybrid is bragging about it. GM planned from the start to make the Volt distinctive looking as well and the original prototype fit that bill nicely. You may or may not recall my musing in a past post about how carmakers will manage to obtain both high mileage and a distinctive new look every year if they are constrained by shapes dictated by wind tunnel tests, wheel size, and so on. Interestingly enough, the latest version of the Volt, which has a shape largely dictated by wind tunnel tests, has morphed into something that looks an awful lot like a Saturn Aura (hybrid version gets 25 mpg city).
There are two main camps out there: those who hate the Prius (and the people who drive them, and all they stand for), and those who do the same for Hummer drivers. The Volt may attract many from the Hummer camp. They can drive a high-mileage car without looking like wusses and it will also be an American-made car worthy of a God Bless America sticker on the bumper. You can see how this will all work out in the end for the environment with both camps driving high-mileage cars while at the same time retaining their individual self-images.
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Bob Wallace Posted 1:46 am
23 Sep 2008
Since batteries are, at this time, expensive and heavy the Volt can't go all that far after being charged from the grid. Few people would buy a moderately expensive car with a 40 mile range.
Therefore GM is including a fuel-powered generator so that the electric car can be recharged on the go.
If really great batteries come to the market in the near future one could remove the genset, replace the batteries, and run off the grid exclusively.
As for the $18,000 Insight - if someone were to stick in a charger so that the batteries could be charged from the grid, how far do you think they could drive on battery power alone? I'd bet little.
Hybrids/PHEVs/Plug-in hybrids are the best we can do at an affordable price right now. We could all drive BEVs if battery price didn't make the car cost in excess of $50,000 (think Tesla and Whitestar).
We need more affordable batteries.
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All that said, I'm now worried about the Volt panning out.
The guy in charge of this project, Lutz, is clearly protected from reality. If no one is able to tell him that his "32,000 scientists" stuff is bunk then what other BS is he using in his decision processes?
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Delay And Deny Posted 2:55 am
23 Sep 2008
They realize hybrids are a transitional technology toward Hydrogen.
Once we get a critical mass of hydrogen fueling stations, we can take out the redundant "hybrid" system and put in clean fuel cell power run on H2.
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DukeJ Posted 2:55 am
23 Sep 2008
This should make it, in theory, simpler and more efficient than a hybrid, if not cheaper.
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Delay And Deny Posted 3:00 am
23 Sep 2008
Still, it's all run on gasoline and it does require the weight of the "generator" to power the battery to run the engine.
With hydrogen a lightweight fuel and a fuel cell simply power the engine directly.
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Bob Wallace Posted 3:26 am
23 Sep 2008
Approximately 80% of Volt running will be done using grid power.
And without intervention by the Magic Breakthrough Fairy we aren't ever going to drive hydrogen fueled vehicles.
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amazingdrx Posted 4:11 am
23 Sep 2008
The Audi is the near future mass produced gas saving winner. Unless Honda made that electric transmission/motor big enough to drive on plugin battery mode? I doubt it.
The only practical plugin hybrid so far is from Audi/VW. Will it be affordable? Don't know yet.
Lutz' excuse for 40k? Twice the drive systems? Duuuh.
A generator from Honda on a 40 mile range electric car, twice the price of a gas guzzler? Yeah, riiight.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Biodiversivist Posted 4:26 am
23 Sep 2008
The Volt, once the grid charge is gone, will use the same amount of gas as any other plug-in hybrid (possibly more). If it uses the same amount of gas and grid power as a Prius plug-in hybrid, how can one justify calling it an electric car unless they also call the plug-in Prius an electric car? They will both use the same amount of gas and the same amount of grid electricity.
A locomotive does not have a battery. It has an engine driving a generator that drives and electric motor.
Engine-->generator-->electric motor
This is the mode the Volt will be in once the grid charge is gone. It will also ad some charge to the battery as a Prius does to assist the engine with acceleration. If it attempts to use an 18% efficient internal gasoline engine to charge up the entire battery pack the average gas mileage would be horrible. If that were not true, there would be no need to charge it from the grid. You would just let the gasoline engine keep it charged.
But, like I said, it doesn't matter. If the misperception sells low emission vehicles it's all good. The first question I always get about my plug-in hybrid bike is "Does it charge itself?" Everyone has heard of a perpetual motion machine but few seem to know what that actually means. My bike is the perfect analogy for the Volt. The goal is not to spend my energy charging my batteries. The goal is to use the stored energy to reduce how much I have to peddle.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Bob Wallace Posted 5:15 am
23 Sep 2008
Take the ICE out of a Volt and it will run just fine for about 40 miles.
Give it quick recharge batteries and position charging points no further than 40 miles apart on our roads and you've got a perfectly serviceable electric car that will take you anywhere.
Sure, stopping for a few minutes every 40 miles while on a long trip would be a pain. But that's not the point.
While 'running on genset' will the Volt be more or less efficient than the Prius? Don't know. But if one doesn't have to buy any gas at all for 80% of their driving, can fuel with an energy source that's 5x less expensive to tap, then is it any big deal?
For those who routinely drive more than 40 miles at a stretch the Prius might be a better choice. But the data tells us that these are exceptions, not the norm. Remember that for every person who routinely drives long distances there must be people who rarely do.
Should we view the upcoming plug-in Prius as an electric car? Perhaps we should. At least for those people who use it mostly in electric mode.
To the extent that these cars operate the vast amount of time on electricity they are electric cars. They are electric cars forced to haul around an ICE because batteries are not yet where then need to be.
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Duggles Posted 7:31 am
23 Sep 2008
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John Fish Kurmann Posted 8:05 am
23 Sep 2008
My attempts to convince Prius drivers that you can't increase mileage by keeping in in battery mode have also failed miserably (the engine just has to run longer to charge the battery back up).
After wrecking my Honda Insight, I recently bought a 2002 Prius. I had been assuming that I'd increase my fuel economy by accelerating slowly, maximizing the time spent in electric-only mode rather than having the ICE kick in quickly to boost acceleration. Have you found this to not be the case in your later-generation Prius? Doesn't the energy captured when slowing down and applying the brakes provide plenty of charge to the battery pack under most circumstances? What driving style have you found to be most fuel efficient?
"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith
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KenG Posted 10:33 am
23 Sep 2008
Obviously, the added losses in a series hybrid will result in a economy hit in ICE operation. However, the ability to design the ICE as a single speed optimized engine will somewhat offset this. A 40 mile range plug in series seems like a reasonable compromise at this time. The weight savings in the engine and drive train must be significant and that difference will provide a payback in electric only range, performance and economy.
That said, the Volt is a first of a kind and will undoubtably be succeeded by more efficient designs.
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Bob Wallace Posted 2:19 pm
23 Sep 2008
That would get rid of the 10-20% power loss by tossing the transmission and save some weight.
It's not a new idea. There were in-hub electrics 100 years ago. This time we have the real time processing power to make them work really well.
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:35 pm
23 Sep 2008
http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/photo/mitsu.jpg
The Volt holds four. This car holds five and has twice the electric range of the Volt. I drive more than 80 miles in a day about three times a year. It may be available about the same time as the Volt. The Volt may face stiff competition from other plug-ins as well.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Biodiversivist Posted 3:18 pm
23 Sep 2008
Understand that the energy captured by the battery from braking also initially came from the gas tank and when you drain the battery, it will be charged up again by energy from the gas tank (which moved the car up that hill, providing potential energy which was partially captured by the battery when you came down).
People think they are getting better mileage on battery mode because by accelerating slowly they are staying on battery mode longer. It is the slow acceleration that helps mileage. The Prius software uses the battery to get the car rolling in anticipation of turning on the engine, thus avoiding the need for the engine to accelerate the car which takes extra gas because recip engines have poor low speed torque characteristics (once rolling, a lawn mower engine can keep a car going).
Priuses get their best mileage on the highway. Stick to the speed limit, use the cruise control and keep positive and negative accelerations smooth. The B function on the transmission helps to keep decelerations smooth and saves wear and tear on the brakes (although adding revolutions to the engine). Don't leave it in B mode, which would on average hurt mileage because sometimes the car should be free to coast longer distances.
We consistently nail in the fifties on the highway. City driving in Seattle is too full of variables to get consistent mileage.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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amazingdrx Posted 4:56 pm
23 Sep 2008
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/24/interview-with-mi ...
Now take a lame concept, like the Volt. It was crap from the start (triple the hp it needs, ultraheavy steel design), so naturally, if it were ever built, it will be even crappier.
If the jeep and all the other WW2 winning devices were built like this, we would all be driving VWs now. Actually that might happen if an Obama administration lets Audi/VW market their plugin hybrids here.
They started with a great idea and are now mass producing it. How was this possible? It's a mystery.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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John Fish Kurmann Posted 4:00 am
25 Sep 2008
"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:28 pm
28 Sep 2008
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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John Fish Kurmann Posted 3:10 pm
02 Oct 2008
"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith
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amazingdrx Posted 3:46 pm
02 Oct 2008
And even have the air conditioning and power steering running on an electric motor.
How much gas would this kind of system save?
Leave the regular battery and generator in the car, but just have it dissconnected from the electrical system until the plugin battery storage is used up.
The generator and air conditioner together might take a couple hp to run. The average hp your car runs on? Maybe 30 if you have an economy car, that could yield maybe 7% gas savings? Maybe more for commutes in heavy traffic where the engine is running when stuck in traffic to keep the air conditioner going.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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amazingdrx Posted 3:49 pm
02 Oct 2008
For traffic bound commuters this conversion might beat a Prius or Insight.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Biodiversivist Posted 12:12 am
03 Oct 2008
China might supply the parts but local entrepreneurs would convert the cars. It might be an aftermarket industry as well, like Car Toys is for stereos and alarms.
The battery technology is almost ready but the price still has a long way to go. Think about it. An engine that is made out of hundreds of machined metal parts costs ten times less than a lithium ion battery pack of the same weight that has no moving parts!
My entire bike cost the same as a single Dewalt pack.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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amazingdrx Posted 12:54 am
03 Oct 2008
Let's hope it starts a mass production energy revolution.
Those recumbant bike conversion kits manufactured in China are a good example of a transition from do-it-yourself towards mass production. Calcars is trying to do this for car conversion.
Even with the 3 dollar per watthour power tool battery packs, would the low power plugin hybrid that merely saves accessory (fan, air conditioning and so forth) and low speed (under 5 mph traffic jam creep) gas guzzling, still have only a few year's payback in gas savings?
I don't know, I suppose someone would have to try it out in a traffic jam city commute.
Another alternative is the Firefly Oasis battery. Still heavy lead acid, but lighter than old style lead acid, and fairly cheap.
The older style nimh power tool batteries are dropping in price too, as lithium takes over that market.
The low power plugin conversion would not need anywhere near the storage/weight of a full plugin hybrid. Maybe 100 pounds of nimh battery would do? These seem to be available for around 2 dollars per watthour.
Yes, it's hard to believe how much restriction of the theoretical free market, that would allow better batteries to actually meet consumer demand, determines the course of economic history. In WW2 companies were not allowed to "shelve" the patents they owned.
In this economic, energy, and climate crisis, every new battery technology is subject to monopoly gaming, that virtually eliminates the traditional role of human invention and innovation from solving the crisis.
If EEstore suddenly succeeds, for instance, will lithium-ion become obsolete overnight? Would EEstore become a defense department "star wars" restricted aerial laser power source, unavailable for cars?
Maybe EEstore is based on area 51 alien technology? Hehey. In a secret system of military industrial monopoly gaming, who can separate fact from fiction?
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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