Hillary Clinton was asked about mountaintop-removal mining in an interview on West Virginia public radio (mp3 link) this morning. Her answer was, in my eyes, terribly disappointing. Here it is:
I am concerned about it for all the reasons people state, but I think it's a difficult question because of the conflict between the economic and environmental trade-off that you have here.
I'm not an expert. I don't know enough to have an independent opinion, but I sure would like people who could be objective, understanding both the economic necessities and environmental damage, to come up with some approach that would enable us to retrieve the coal but would enable us to do it in a way that wouldn't damage the living standards and the other important qualities associated with people living both under the mountaintop and people who are along the streams.
You know, maybe there is a way to recover those mountaintops once they have been stripped of the coal. You know, I think we've got to look at this from a practical perspective.
"Economic necessities"? "Trade-offs"? Here's a trade-off:
Gosh, those lucky duckies in West Virginia's booming economy just don't know how good they've got it!
Here, incidentally, is how good they've got it:
What a fun trade-off!
These images are taken from the Appalachian Voices blog. I suggest you read the post there for a more measured response than I'm currently able to offer.
Ask Umbra on ditching dirty things
Comments
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ce1907 Posted 11:48 am
19 Mar 2008
there is a primary coming up
Hillary is a pol. Barack is a pol.
They are all pols. They play a certain game.
We need to play the game better.
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LegumeSam Posted 11:50 am
19 Mar 2008
http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus
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bigTom Posted 12:04 pm
19 Mar 2008
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Pompey Road Posted 12:31 pm
19 Mar 2008
The safety is getting better, underground mining is the way to go. It is just more expensive to do and takes more men. That is why they are doing mountain top removal, they are just cheap.
If mountain top removal was banned employment in the mines would increase 4 fold. Puts real money into the communities and is more eco friendly. The mountain may fall a couple of feet when they remove the coal but it will still be there along with the valleys on either side.
It don't take much to clean up after a drift, slope or shaft mine when the mine plays out. The coal washing is another story, the real story is not out yet on coal slurry and coal slucge ponds. It is almost as bad as MTR.
The Co2, well that is another problem and someone else will have to deal with it. Speaking only to the coal mining underground, the only drawback now will be the thousands of years of underground mining experience that left the area in the 80's and 90's.
Young people will not want to do it, even for the money and most will not make the trip back up I-75 to go back into the mines.
The training and certification conponent is high for underground. Mandated by Federal & State regulation as it should be, but it is a hassel keeping the training and certification up.
Force them off the mountains and back underground and do us a favor and the eco system.
STOP MTR
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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amazingdrx Posted 4:31 pm
19 Mar 2008
Why is that? Because all her ideas come from her advisors. She was cleverly advised to skip the caucuses. So she has lost. She was cleverly advised not to diss coal in WV. So she uttered nonsense.
This is duuhbya's method of governance, is it not?
Barack actually says what he believes. What a novel concept for a politician. That's why he is being compared to FDR in his speech on racial healing.
Now how do we get him to listen to a sane energy policy? He'll believe a guy like Lester Brown, then believing what he is speaking about, convince the nation to go truly green. It's a distinct possibility?
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog
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Pompey Road Posted 1:49 am
20 Mar 2008
Oh! they have been cutting sludge ponds loose for years, the chemical treated waste water flowing at night and clearing up after dawn when the work traffic went up by the river.
Cancer rate one of the highest in the country per population and now Federal, State and the Army Corps of Engineers has signed off on letting CONSOL dump the chemical waste water into the river.
The article on the front page of the local Pikeville Ky. newspaper headlined,"Dumping Begins"
The dumping on East Kentucky by Coal Corporations actually begin a hundred years ago when they come in and stole the mineral. John Mayo's Broad Form Deed sealed the deal and stole the land.
The same people who bring us Mountain Top Removal and Valley fills covering up fresh water streams now bring us chemical treated waste water dumped into the very river we get our drinking water from.
The colon cancer death rate here is outrageous, poor health care to begin with and now this.
Trading off lives for coal, it is not just the man who mines the coal. They trade on the lives of all of us down here just to get that coal.
Cheap Coal, enjoy it America
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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caniscandida Posted 5:37 am
20 Mar 2008
we need you to keep talking about this, telling us what you know, what you have seen with your own eyes.
The graph is gorgeous, but actually only shows correlation, not cause and effect. I.e., people are not necessarily made poorer because MTR is taking place in their counties.
On the other hand, the agents of MTR/ValleyFill are very likely encouraged to carry on what they are doing where they are doing it because the people round about are poor, weak and voiceless.
As for Hillary:
All the pundits agree that she is super-smart, and knows everything about every issue. So how come she is so dumb about this?
She was dumb-and-dumber too, remember, when she hired that Nebraska pig-CAFO-queen as her farm-state representative.
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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Pompey Road Posted 7:40 am
20 Mar 2008
The sludge and coal slurry ponds are as bad as MTR, they just don't get as much attention. I will try to find the chemical mix that goes into coal preparation and post it.
All this is about trying to compete with Powder River basin coal and other sites in Wyoming. Thick coal seams with less overburden allows them to use massive equipment and mine it cheaper. The coal is first choice because of its lower sulfur emisions. Most of it does not have to be washed.
The coal seams we have that are close to western standards are being stripped mined with the MTR and valley fill method.
Then it has to be washed in coal preparation plants that use chemicals to treat the coal. If it were just the dirt and coal dust in the sludge ponds it would be bad enough. This is a real bad chemical mix also.
All rivers flow to the sea, the Big Sandy is a tributary of the Ohio that flows into the Mississippi. The heavy metals released from the MTR method of mining is bad enough, add this stuff to the cocktail.
Hillary will not stop it, she is a corporate girl, never met a lobby she did not like. Obama, maybe, he is pro coal but anti-MTR or so I hear. I do not believe he knows anything about the coal cleaning process.
These coal slurry dams burst every now and then, check out the sludge pond that broke in Martin County Ky. Much bigger than the Exxon valdez spill but like you said, it happened in East Ky. no one knew, it pretty much got covered up.
A large one broke around Buffalo Creek Virginia in the mid-seventies. Scores of people killed and whole communities washed off. A Ky. representitive just put forth a bill to inspect coal dams in the Ky. General Assembly.
I believe if he was serious it would have been a prefilled bill, its late in the session and it won't make it. The Feds are doing nothing so it is better than nothing I guess.
I do not understand how hydraulic mining was banned over a hundred years ago out west and MTR is allowed in this day and time. MTR is much worse than hydraulic mining as it completely destroys the mountains, the valleys and the stream.
It is as you say, hidden in the wilderness of Appalachia a place with no voting base, not enough votes most years to matter. And a powerful coal lobby getting mine laws weakened and the clean water act weakened. The man in Washington now has turned them loose and give them free reign.
They use to put a mountain back on an original contour, which is still bad enough but was 1000% better than pushing the overburden into a valley and a fresh water stream. The 1977 law on strip mining was much tougher on the coal corporations. They do not even like to hear the term original contour anymore.
If they are forced back underground they will still mine coal. Large seams of coal under the water table but gassy. The degasification of coal seams has been viable for years. It is much the same as an oil or gas well procedure used for fracturing the strata to form pockets of oil or gas. Once you degasify a coal seam it is safe to mine, the methane you pump off the seam more than pays for the process.
I know it's still a carbon fuel and coal is coal no matter where you get it but it would at least stop the mountains from being destroyed altoghther.
They use the argument that stopping MTR will destroy the coal business. The large reserves of coal underground are bought and paid for, they will mine them. The long wall method of mining is almost as fast and productive as stripping. They will mine coal, just to damn cheap and greedy to go get the underground stuff until they mine the last lump of the strip coal.
They take miserleiness to a whole nuther level, just to cheap to put the overburden back and reclaim the right way. Its so much cheaper just to push the mountains over into a valley and cover up a fresh water stream. Eco system be damned.
Flat prairie land can be reclaimed close to what it was before. Any animal that lived on flat grass land can possibly come back. It is no where near perfect but comes closer to reclaimation as it can get.
You can't knock down mountains, deciduous forest and spray a weed mix on the hard pack and call it reclaimation. No forest animal that needs a tree can come back to that. It takes hundreds of years to make a forest floor. That is a special humus mix only made from leaves, from "trees" falling for centuries.
There is herb and plant life that will grow in no other soil. Why do you think the Chinese pay over $400 a pound for wild ginsing from Appalachia. Many have tried to grow it commercially and do. The chinese can tell the difference. That is just one herb. I can't go into all the plant and animal life that is destroyed by MTR on this site.
The mountains, the trees, the animal life, the plant and herb life, the aquatic life. Plus the heavy metals and chemicals they loose into the rivers we all drink from.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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2wheeler Posted 7:59 am
20 Mar 2008
And Billary's response (what was she saying again?) is just the kind of "triangulation" we would expect from the Clintons at this point. She and her husband with his "library", takes too much money from the big donors, unlike Barack, and is swayed by it I think.
Strong second to drX's comments above, Obama is a different type of leader whom I have real trust in: he has been saying what he believes and could benefit from good advisors (unlike McCain who is stubborn type like W on this personality trait).
As for the glib and fatalistic comment above, "The Co2, well that is another problem and someone else will have to deal with it." we REALLY need to get empowered to make the necessary changes to build the sustainable future our children and grandchildren will require.
I believe Obama, not the Clintons, is the one with the judgement and character to lead the people of this great country with respect to these matters. Us average folk are not afraid to make sacrifices if we know the cause is fair and just-- we just hate being lied to and sold out by so many of those in charge. Barack Obama's unique ability to connect to the people, could be like FDR with his fireside chats inspiring all to get serious and persevere-- this time, about personal actions to shift to renewable green energy.
Moving toward sustainability with hopefulness, one revolution at a time.
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Pompey Road Posted 12:16 pm
20 Mar 2008
I have people in the industry who know, we are shipping coal to China now. You might be able in a few to reduce Co2 emissions stateside. The Chinese are bringing on one new coal plant a day and we are selling them coal now.
Do you realistically think you can control the communist chinese infra-structure. In a time of obsene trade deficits you will not be able to stop the coal companies from shipping coal out. They are tickled to death with anything that puts a dent in our trade imbalance.
They will still mine the coal and even if you clean it up here, China will burn it as they always have. No long term contracts yet, and the first shipments have been small in contrast to the Southern Utility contracts.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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Pompey Road Posted 12:59 am
21 Mar 2008
There is no way under present Mine Law you can stop coal corporations but the Corps has to sign off on the water quality on the projects they operate on.
When litigation is brought by entity's who would like nothing better than a long protracted trial in order to highlight the Corps activities in the national press, the corps backs down and pulls permits.
Case in point Leslie County Ky. a permit was pulled for a job that was to cover a fresh water stream early this year on a Corps operated property. A local group teamed up with the Sierra Club and approached the Corps, the permit was pulled.
This is an inroad and precident setting, identify all Corps properties with active strip jobs and watch the permits. Go after any permit that covers a fresh water stream.
You don't shut down the whole job but at least you put the problem in the spotlight in the local and national press.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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Pompey Road Posted 1:30 am
21 Mar 2008
They tout every MTR as flat land for an Industral Site, Farm or Housing Developmnet. If we put industrial sites on all the flat land they have made us we could meet the industrial needs of China. You could put all the sub-prime mortgage defaults on the flat land they have made us.
Most industrial sites get the clients on board before they build. You are millions of dollars away from an industrial site just because you have a piece of flat land with some weed seed sprayed on some hard pack. The same goes for a Housing Development. Build us some industrial sites and housing developments before you create us anymore flat land. Since none are being built I am becoming suspicious of the offer.
Reclaiming a plateau or sheared off mountain is one thing. You forget about the valley you just filled with debris. You do understand that it is several hundred feet deep with debris. How can you reclaim a valley and a fresh water stream when it is buried under thousands of tons of overburden. That is why MTR should always be used with the term and Valley Fill.
There is no viable way to reclaim a mountain that has been blown off and shoved into a valley. All they ever did was to strike it off level and spray a weed mix on it and call it reclaimation.
Some now are going back and planting some tree saplings. Mostly fast growing softwood trees. If they took a tree inventory and planted back the several varieties that was originally on the mountain you would get closer.
If you have a couple hundred years to wait on the forest floor to recuperate. Plant life and fauna there even we do not fully understand.
Do not encourage the coal corporations with your trade off theory. We have heard every argument as to why MTR and valley filling is benificial to us.
Run it by the Appalachia Region in New York and New England, if they will allow you to do it there come back down here and strip the hell out of it.
Fair warning, you will probably be tarred and feathered and rode out of town on a rail for even mentioning it. Which brings us to the point why the hell are we so different to make everybody think we would want it down here for jobs, economics or anything else.
We have been in these mountains for generations and are becoming genetically predisposed to living in a valley. If I had wanted to live on flat land all I would have to do is move 100 miles north, south, east or west. We made a living here before they found the coal and stole it, we will make one after.
Go watch the movie "Last of the Mohicans" pay particular attention to the scenery then come back and tell me what you would trade off to destroy it.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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