Sickening. Kevin John Moran of Camano Island, Wash., was just convicted of illegally cutting down 27 old-growth cedars on public land. They were between 400 and 700 years old. And they were dry-side trees, even rarer than the Northwest's west-slope titans.
But here's the worst that can happen to him:
Theft of government property is a Class C felony, which means a maximum sentence of 10 years or less, and a fine not to exceed $250,000.
Some of these trees were mature giants long before Europeans ever encountered the Pacific Northwest. They were protected on public land. They were our natural heritage.
But destroying them? That's just "theft of government property."
Sentencing is in February.
Senate should consider deforestation as part of climate bill
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GreenEngineer Posted 6:39 am
18 Dec 2007
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amc89 Posted 7:22 am
18 Dec 2007
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wiscidea Posted 10:35 am
18 Dec 2007
Someone who can answer the first question might want to go public. Make it uncomfortable for those who buy illegal trees. Did any of it end up at Home Depot? Sent to Japan for chop sticks? Where is the wood now?
http://ffrf.org/day/
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:15 pm
18 Dec 2007
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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caniscandida Posted 10:48 pm
18 Dec 2007
Whence however we may ask: How the hell is he supposed to compensate you all in Washington, or all of us Americans, or all human beings everywhere, or really the entire community of living creatures of the world, for the destruction of those trees? And let us not forget the deaths of countless small living creatures who made their homes in them.
Or, is God supposed to compensate us? OK, so, how? Do we have any evidence that God is in the habit of miraculously restoring what has been destroyed in this way?
Or, to defend God for not restoring the trees, do we have here a case of corporate guilt, as WiscIdea suggests? Do we all bear some responsibility for Moran's actions? Ought we to have educated him in virtue, so that he would not have been tempted to do what he did?
An argument for that can be found perhaps in the disgracefully superficial and unappreciative way that the trees were legally classified, simply as "government property" which was stolen.
Anyway, were Moran to die unrepentant, and were Dante to judge his destruction of the trees to reflect the essential God-despising character of his eternal soul, then he might place him in either of two places.
First, Moran might be placed in the third and lowest section of the seventh circle, where are punished the Violent against God, i.e. blasphemers, most directly, but also those who are Violent against the two great parts of God's creation, viz. Art -- the usurers -- , and Nature -- the homosexuals (!; and he finds his beloved old teacher there!: "Ser Brunetto, are YOU ... HERE?!"). The punishment is to run naked on burning sands, while being pelted with a burning rain.
Second, he might be placed in the eighth circle, where are punished those who were Fraudulent, and specifically the eighth Bolgia, a "pocket" or ditch running in a circle around the center of the Earth, where Satan sits, reserved for Thieves. Their punishment is to be stung by venomous serpents, by which they undergo a painful metamorphosis into the shape of the serpents, and in exchange the serpents metamorphose into them, "stealing" their shape.
Of course, it is unclear from this article what Moran's motives were in destroying those trees. They might very well affect Dante's judgment. If they had anything to do with betraying someone to whom he owed loyalty or love, then Moran should be consigned to the ninth, lowest circle, that of the Treacherous, where the punishment is to be imprisoned in ice, and feel for all eternity the icy blasts of the wingbeats of Satan.
Chickens are our cousins! So are fish! So are other sentient animals! Let us learn to be kind.
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wiscidea Posted 1:28 am
19 Dec 2007
(1) Transformation of Mr. Moran -- retaining all human senses -- into a tree.
(2) Satan wielding a chainsaw.
(3) Mr. moran resprouting like a grove of poplars. Return to step 2.
Fortunately, God is supposed to be more merciful and would likely either forgive him or simply force Mr. Moran to spend eternity planting and replanting trees.
http://ffrf.org/day/
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Reformed Republican Posted 3:17 am
19 Dec 2007
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wiscidea Posted 4:41 am
19 Dec 2007
One of my reasons for rejecting Christianity and other faith-based religions, is the enormous emphasis placed on revenge and murder for various "crimes". I personally do not approve of the death penalty or torture for any crime, and I do not believe long imprisonment accomplishes much. It would be better to have an education system that instills appropriate values for a civilized society, a social safety net that prevents people from resorting to crime in order to survive, efforts to reform those who do commit crimes, punishments that try to mitigate the harm done by someone, and, finally, life imprisonment for the wost and most recalcitrant offenders (in my opinion, rapists, child molestors, and those who abuse spouses).
Regarding "some trees"... they were not just trees, but rare 400-700 year old trees. Moran not only cut down the trees, but cut down rare species dependent on those trees and cut off ecosystem services provided by those trees. What if everyone decided to do the same because the immediate economic value of the trees exceeded potential costs of breaking the law? Do you want to live in a country where the decision regarding whether to obey the law is a simple economic decision?
Returning to a bit of fun. If there is a God who created the trees for the benefit of humankind, then perhaps eternal torment is appropriate. Consider this... God created them and Moran selfishly pilfered themf. Hmmm... though shalt not steal. Moran broke a commandment. The Ten Commandments are not "the ten suggestions". He violated God's law. If eternal torment is suitable for lying, disrespecting your parents, working on the sabbath, worshipping flags et cetera... or homosexuality and variety of other victimless "crimes"... then Moran deserves eternal torment. It says so in the Bible.
The original post did ask: "Which circle of hell for illegal logging?" So I assume this line of discussion is acceptable.
http://ffrf.org/day/
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wiscidea Posted 1:06 am
20 Dec 2007
Where do the gluttons go? I was thinking about this on the way home last night. Moran is not only a thief, but a glutton.
According to Deuteronomy, Moran should be stoned to death. Perhaps an America guided by Biblical law WOULD be a better place! All the greedy people -- including oil executives and televangelists, I assume -- would be subject to pubic stoning.
I'll have to look into this... time to open the Bible for inspiration... what other crimes would call for stoning? Hmmmm....
http://ffrf.org/day/
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caniscandida Posted 5:51 am
20 Dec 2007
you ask a telling question. And, perhaps you do not realize it but, you are in fact asking for a lighter sentence for Moran the Tree-Bane.
In Plato's Republic, Socrates divides human moral motivation into three parts: the best, highest part, which is ruled by true knowledge and reason; the middle part, which is ruled by the honor-loving, manly, aggressive, heroism-charged, potentially-on-a-hair-trigger violent emotions; and the lazy, gross, physical, hungry, horny, greedy bottom.
So Dante, in that tradition, described Hell in reverse. Sins of reason and the intellect, e.g. fraud, are the most offensive against God, and therefore are punished deepest down. Sins of physicality, e.g. lust, are punished towards the top.
Gluttony is a sin of physicality. The Gluttonous are punished in the third circle of Hell. They lie in mud and filth, the air is foul-smelling, and a cold, muddy, filthy, heavy, foul-smelling rain is falling upon them. The three-headed mud-eating Hell-dog Cerberus, whose barks make one wish one were deaf.
So you decide which is worst, for all eternity: lying in filth; passing into and out of the form of serpents of pain; and freezing, entrapped in ice.
One may very well ask if, for all eternity, it matters.
Chickens are our cousins! So are fish! So are other sentient animals! Let us learn to be kind.
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