In Sunday's WaPo, Joel Achebach says, "Rigorous science is the best weapon for persuading the public that [climate change] is a real problem that requires bold action."
The best weapon? Is that true?
Things smart people assume 15
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Posted 1:16 PM on 5 Aug 2008
by David Roberts -
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David Roberts is staff writer for Grist. You can follow his Twitter feed at twitter.com/david_h_roberts.
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Russ Posted 5:33 am
05 Aug 2008
the jury is in
I believe after 20 years of climate change science publicity, we have enough evidence for a verdict.
Umm, that would be a "no".
[Cf. also - evolution, belief in god, etc.]
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Bart Anderson Posted 6:34 am
05 Aug 2008
Leverage points
Yes, good science is an important part of the response but as David points out, it is foolish to think that it is THE most important.
The late Donnela Meadows (co-author of Limits to Growth) said it best in her 1999 paper, Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System (PDF):
See her paper to see what she means by these points.If one doesn't know all the possibilities, one is locked into a rigid response.
Right now I'm most interested in strategy of changing the mindset/paradigm.
Bart
Energy Bulletin
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David Roberts Posted 6:42 am
05 Aug 2008
Bart,
IMHO, the mindset changes after the rest of that stuff changes. Trying to change mindset directly (by what? persuasion?) is futile. Change the constraints, change the material circumstances, and the mindset will change to adapt to it. Start with the tangible, I say.
grist.org
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Gar Lipow Posted 9:06 am
05 Aug 2008
Chicken egg
How do you change material constraints without changing mindsets?
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David Roberts Posted 9:21 am
05 Aug 2008
All sorts of ways
Investment. Legislation. Litigation. Price incentives. Tax policy. Social pressure. You name it.
I guarantee Americans' mindset didn't suddenly change midcentury in such a way that people woke up and said, hey, I want to cover the nation in pavement and live way out far from the city in an anonymous, cheap box from which I have to drive anywhere I go and where I never see anyone not exactly like me and from which I can nurse paranoid fantasies about Others who want to take away a form of life that largely consists in pursuing and purchasing consumer items from China with which to fill my anonymous box. They see that way of life as sacrosanct now, but not because they were persuaded, but because they were channeled there by the material imperatives of America's corporate class. They could be channeled elsewhere.
grist.org
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Gar Lipow Posted 9:28 am
05 Aug 2008
And how do you get that legislation etc.
That is given that the rich seem to like stuff the way it is, how do get it changed without people creating the pressures to put forth those changes? Don't you need a popular movement, which in turn means you need a change in mindset? Or do you think legislatures will do this out of sheer noble-mindedness, and corporations make changes out of sheer ability to think about long term profits?
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Des Emery Posted 1:22 pm
05 Aug 2008
Assumptions
"Mindset" can easily be changed by a good PR man from the majority of us preferring "A" into wanting "B" but can just as quickly be changed back by another good PR man.
But science deals with actual truth, not perceptions nor opinions nor preferences. Only science showed the medical profession that washing their hands between patients could save lives. Only science could put instant communication wirelessly between people on opposite sides of the Atlantic Ocean.
And only science can prove that Global Warming is real, is dangerous, and will affect all of us sooner than we think. If people's "mindset" cannot be changed by truth, what's the point of thinking? Might as well eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
Des Emery
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GreenMom Posted 2:59 pm
05 Aug 2008
Science does lotsa good stuff...
...but it doesn't persuade the majority of people, because you just aren't going to get them to think like you do.
That's just the way it is. You have to meet people where they are. Put it in terms they can relate to:
Patriotism: energy made in America
Fuel efficiency: good old American ingenuity
Gas prices: will only come down when we use less oil.
Jobs: energy efficiency and local power mean more jobs in communities that need jobs.
..and so forth. Come on, people. It's not that hard. Get off your high horses.
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Colin Wright Posted 3:50 pm
05 Aug 2008
The chicken and the egg problem...
DR's formulation that "we" (presumably, educated people like us!) make change by altering the material conditions of society is interesting, but too Marxian in my view. In my view the best way to make long-lasting and deep change is to present ordinary people with the information and options and let them come to their own conclusions. (Mind you, I agree with Marx that people do make free choices but not under conditions of their own choice.)
But I do think there is something true in what DR said. This sort of reminds me of all the feminist ideological battles of the 70's/80's (radical vs. liberal vs. socialist vs eco vs anarchist). As I look at the landscape today, I think the socialist-feminists were right in emphasizing that it was the material gains of women (particularly access to good jobs and wages) that have had the longest-lasting effects. (No doubt the other approaches had effects also.)
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John former Marine Posted 10:34 pm
05 Aug 2008
They'll never understand...
The world is no more of a rational place today than it was when Candide was driven from Westphalia.
The reason? I place a large percentage of the blame on a single book that has held the minds of the western world in the mental rut of Stone Age "pie in the sky" philosophy for the last 2,000 years. At every turn, the priests have tried to destroy reason and rational thought with faith.
Does it surprise anyone that the most faithless of countries are the ones leading the way now?
Il faut cultiver notre jardin.
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ehsdirector Posted 10:39 pm
05 Aug 2008
Science? NO media drive perception trumps all
Science? Seriously?
The effects of global emissions has been in academics since the 40's. Government measuring monitoring regulations have been tracking our impact for three decades filling buildings with supporting documents and viable options to stop what has become our current reality.
Social media driven perception has always become the reality that trumps strong logical scientific efforts.
Logic, common sense and science are tools for the elite and have always been ignored for a more "passionate or interesting, feel good" stories about "things we already know and want to hear".
The current candidate options are a prime example of this (rehashed carter era stuff).
Every good scientific environmental and energy plan this month will be trumped a 1000 fold by paris's mock energy plan of McCain further proving the over obvious point of mine.
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Paleocon Posted 5:20 pm
06 Aug 2008
China is leading the way, huh?
I better start heating my house with coal, I guess.
More condescension and arrogance from Climate Fundamentalists who apparently don't even know what the "consensus" is of which they speak. Add a dash of ignorance and we get broad statements about people who may have different religious beliefs than your own.
Here is a great example of someone who is absolutely certain that AGW Fundamentalists are correct...
http://www.maniacworld.com/Badly-in-Need-of-Science-Lesso ...
This didn't start out as a joke.
I have never met a group of less open minded folks who didn't speak in tongues. At least those whack jobs don't have the power to tax my family.
"...a 90 percent chance that the US has contributed .2 degrees F of temperature increase in the last 50 years..." The IPCC Consensus in perspective
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Bart Anderson Posted 5:43 am
07 Aug 2008
The mind - horrible thing to waste
David R:
Yes, that too, David. It's all necessary.I'm just saying that I personally am interested in changes in mindset/paradigm. I think circumstances are ripe to develop a new vision, and that in the confusing times ahead, people will be receptive to new worldviews.
One thing that Donella doesn't mention is the creation of networks and institutions, where new ideas can develop and grow, where people can find companionship and support.
I actually think this is the most important thing that is happening now.
Bart
Energy Bulletin
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Paleocon Posted 2:39 pm
07 Aug 2008
and more from China
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/acde4f9a-64ab-11dd-af61-0000779 ...
"...a 90 percent chance that the US has contributed .2 degrees F of temperature increase in the last 50 years..." The IPCC Consensus in perspective
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amazingdrx Posted 3:39 pm
07 Aug 2008
Viral
Collective mindset changes in a viral fashion.
Seeing is believing, so yes the mindset follows the example. A neighbor puts up a solar panel, shows the other neighbors his lower power bill.
A video on youtube shows the neighborhood going solar, it's viral I tell you.
Sure DR is right the mindset change needs a substantial change in the reality of how power is generated, with solar. And then the example changes the mindset.
It's a fractal phenomenon, how the herd or school of fish changes course collectively is determined by simple rules governing the interaction of the individual fish, or people. Seeing is believing, saving money of power (and being green) is smart, smart is status.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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