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1. 

   sindark Posted 12:21 am
   20 Jun 2008

   Ground transport tech

   The hydrogen car almost certainly has no future. Hopefully, people will opt for electric vehicles or plug-in hybrids, rather than leading a push towards synthetic liquid fuels made from coal.

   a sibilant intake of breath

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2. 

   amazingdrx Posted 12:40 am
   20 Jun 2008

   "Living With Ed"

   The Green network TV show featured a visit to Jay Leno's garage.  Jay said he is going to install a reformer system that produces hydrogen from natural gas to power his fuel cell vehicles.

   The fantastical hydrogen fuel cell economy is in the media hype consciousness, just "clean" coal to liquid fuel and fuel farming are.

   It all needs debunking, good work Joe.

   Jay also showed Ed a 1913 hybrid car.  And a biodiesel jet turbine car.  He dissed looking under the hood of an electric car as "like taking down a ken doll's pants, nothing there".

   Meanwhile in the real world these new batteries make plugin hybrid conversion a viable 100+ mpg option.

   http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/6/20/ ...

   http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

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3. 

   Max8806 Posted 12:59 am
   20 Jun 2008

   Battery not Fuel

   I think people are deceptively attracted to Hydrogen because it's a "clean fuel."  The problem is its really more of a battery.  Hydrogen "fuel" cells just store energy made from another process (lots of electricity or heat) in the form of chemical bonds.  And like Joseph Romm points, all that just to break it back down to electricity.  

   But the classification as an alternative fuel makes it deceptively attractive.  Once you realize its just a battery storing the same old electric power, the only differences are 1) way more cost, for 2) way lower efficiency, plus 3) massive investment in an entire new infrastructure just to make it relevant.

   Good article Joseph.

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4. 

   GRLCowan Posted 2:54 am
   20 Jun 2008

   As a former hydrogen fan ...

   I have to say again what I said at greencarcongress.com/2008/06/geeco-developin.html:

   Li-ion is more efficient ... but with that higher efficiency duly accounted for, 500 kg of lH2 tank, even though it includes only ~30 kg of hydrogen, still yields about as much driveshaft work as two tonnes of Li-ion battery. Or anyway, with the lH2 tanks BMW is using, that is true.

   --- G.R.L. Cowan, H2 energy fan 'til ~1996
   http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html

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5. 

   Nucbuddy Posted 3:36 am
   20 Jun 2008

   The car is leased -- not sold -- then salvaged

   Joseph Romm wrote: Would you buy a car that costs 10 times as much as a hybrid gasoline-electric, like the Prius?

   The Honda FCX Clarity is not sold. It is leased for $7,200/year, or $21,600 for a three-year lease. When the lease is over, the car is taken back by the company which then has the opportunity to salvage the platinum that makes the car expensive.
   
   
   

   Joseph Romm wrote: And who, exactly, is going to buy a car that can't easily find fuel?

   California and Japan are building refueling networks.
   hydrogencarsnow.com/japan-hydrogen-highway.htm

   Some generation-IV nuclear-reactor designs are proposed that could potentially produce hydrogen (from water) cheaper than electricity.
   

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6. 

   GreyFlcn Posted 4:24 am
   20 Jun 2008

   Too bad

   More than 95 percent of U.S. hydrogen is made from natural gas, so running a car on hydrogen doesn't reduce net carbon dioxide emissions compared with a hybrid like the Prius running on gasoline.

   
   As much as I love kicking Hydrogen cars where it hurts, I hate to say that that statement might not be correct for this car.

   The trick of course is that Toyota gets around this by giving the car the best possible electric batteries, electric motors, and electric super-capcitors one could ask for.

   Perhaps the more take-home argument for me is that the only real way it got these advancements were from better technology that would benefit electric cars even more.

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7. 

   GreyFlcn Posted 3:02 pm
   20 Jun 2008

   Or to reiterate

   1. Imagine the most expensive electric car you can think of.  Tricked out with the best electric motors, nanolithium batteries, and supercapacitors possible.

   2. Now shrink the battery range to about 40 miles

   3. Now latch on a glorified natural gas Generator that needs gold and plantinum to run.  And breaks down in 5 years.

   4. Plus a 10,000PSI compressed storage tank, made out of carbon fibre, with more insulation than Santa Claus could ask for.
      

   __

   Now you might ask yourself.
   

   "If I already have step 1, why include step 2,3,&4."

   I would certainly ask the same thing.

   Especially considering if you have step 1, then you already have a battery setup capable of recharging to 80% in 1 minute flat.
   http://greyfalcon.net/quickcharge3.png

   Compared to 3-5 minutes to fill up with Hydrogen.

   Takes a few hours to fill up at home, but then again, the same thing is true with hydrogen reformed from natural gas.

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8. 

   Nucbuddy Posted 4:10 pm
   20 Jun 2008

   GreyFlcn

   You would really buy a car with a 40-mile range? Most people wouldn't.

   2008 Toyota Camry Solara SE
   Range: 462.5 Miles.

   
   

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9. 

   amazingdrx Posted 1:37 am
   21 Jun 2008

   Correction

   Valence batteries are only available with a miniumum order of 500,000 dollars.  Does anyone know an electric car coop that could pony up the dough for this?

   That would rock already existing electric cars and new conversions with batteries under half the weight of the usual lead acid.  Performance and range would be greatly enhanced.

   Enthuisasts from around the globe could join the electric conversion coop online and eventually get these batteries.

   Vinod, how about a donation to get this going?  make up for your biofuelishness in backing ethanol.  

   http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

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10. 

    GreyFlcn Posted 3:44 pm
    26 Jun 2008

    Uhm NucB, isn't that obvious?

    You would really buy a car with a 40-mile range? Most people wouldn't.    2008 Toyota Camry Solara SE    Range: 462.5 Miles.

    Heh, well the recharge figure I gave is for 100 miles at highway speed recharged in 1 minute. (Given enough current)
    http://greyfalcon.net/quickcharge3.png
    http://greyfalcon.net/quickcharge
    http://greyfalcon.net/quickcharge3

    However even if a car, say, the Chevy Volt only has 40 miles electric range, thats what the gasoline generator is for. And the only reason it's 40 mile range, is cost.
    http://greyfalcon.net/plugins
    http://greyfalcon.net/volt
    http://greyfalcon.net/plugins6
    http://greyfalcon.net/plugins7

    40-60 miles range just happens to line up with the vast majority of normal commute distances.  And hence the most electric miles driven per year, with the least battery cost.

    I'm kind of surprised you didn't already know this.

    Drop down the price of the batteries, and 600 mile electric range would be practical.

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