John McCain's surprise pick of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate has a lot of environmentalists in the state worried about the influence she might have on the presidential candidate's environmental policy. McCain has worked hard to portray himself as a green Republican, but Palin has developed an anti-environmental reputation during her 20 months as governor, according to many in the state.
Her office in downtown Anchorage sits beside the ConocoPhillips building. "When I look every day, the big oil company's building is right out there next to me, and it's quite a reminder that we should have mutually beneficial relationships with the oil industry," she said recently. Most people in the Alaskan environmental community see her as an ally of Big Oil, willing to set aside both science and the public good to benefit the industry.
"I think it's a really extreme choice from a conservation perspective," says Peter Van Tuyn, an Anchorage-based environmental lawyer who has advocated for the state's native and conservation groups on environmental concerns for the past 15 years. "Picking Palin moves [McCain] even farther to right."
Like Van Tuyn, many enviros in the state express concern about her push to open up more areas to oil and gas drilling, her stances against protecting endangered species, and her past denials of anthropogenic climate change.
But even environmentalists praise her for taking on political corruption related to the oil and gas industry. And other observers note that Palin has gone to battle against Big Oil on a number of issues, most notably pushing through a big tax increase on oil companies last year. "She's viewed ... as almost anti-oil" in her home state, Alaskan GOP pollster Mark Hellenthal told the Associated Press. "She's probably pro-oil from a national perspective, but she's not in the pocket of Big Oil. She's fought them at every step."
An inhospitable climate
Palin's beliefs on global warming contrast sharply with those of McCain, who has long warned about the dangers of human-caused climate change and who in 2003 cosponsored the first major bill in the Senate to address the problem. McCain consistently talks up his climate change plan on the campaign trail and in his TV ads.
Palin's got a different take. "A changing environment will affect Alaska more than any other state, because of our location," Palin told Newsmax in an interview published on Friday. But, she added, "I'm not one, though, who would attribute it to being man-made."
In 2006, while running for governor, Palin said of climate change, "I will not pretend to have all the answers," and cautioned against "overreaction" on the issue. A Palin spokesperson in 2006 said, "She's not totally convinced one way or the other. Science will tell us ... She thinks the jury's still out."
After Palin joined McCain's ticket, her spokesperson said, "Gov. Palin not only stands with John McCain in his belief that global warming is a critical issue that must be addressed, but she has been a leader in addressing climate change." Note that the statement dodges the issue of whether humans are responsible for global warming.
"I wouldn't call her a climate change denier, but she is extremely close to that position," John Toppenberg, director of the Alaska Wildlife Alliance, told Grist. "She seems to be failing to acknowledge virtually all credible science."
Still, Palin has taken some small steps on climate change, creating a committee to develop Alaska's climate-change strategy and making Alaska an observer, though not a member, of the Western Climate Initiative.
Drill here, drill now
Palin has a complicated relationship with the oil industry. Last year, she pushed through new oil taxes in Alaska, arguing that the tax plan proposed by the previous governor, Frank Murkowski, was too favorable to the industry. The new tax brought in about $6 billion during the last fiscal year, contributing to an expected budget surplus of as much as $9 billion. Palin used some of that excess to give each Alaskan $1,200 to help them deal with rising energy costs.
Palin says that she, like McCain, opposes the idea of a "windfall profits" tax on oil companies. And yet her strategy in Alaska looks an awful lot like Barack Obama's plan to impose a windfall-profits tax and use the money to give each American $1,000 to help offset pain at the pump. Palin even praised some aspects of Obama's energy plan earlier this month.
With billions from the new oil tax pouring in to Alaska's treasury, it's no wonder that Palin wants to give the oil industry more opportunities to drill -- and more opportunities to be taxed. She has been an avid supporter of opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling, as well as offshore areas, and has even chastised the Bush administration for not pushing hard enough to allow more drilling in her state.
"We have so much potential from tapping our resources here in Alaska. And we can do this with minimum environmental impact," she said in her recent Newsmax interview. "We have a very pro-development president in President Bush, and yet he failed to push for opening up parts of Alaska to drilling through Congress -- and a Republican-controlled Congress, I might add."
In the past, Palin has been critical of McCain's stance on drilling in the refuge. "Sen. McCain is wrong" on the issue of oil drilling, she said during a June 25 appearance on CNBC's "Kudlow & Company." "I think he's going to evolve into eventually supporting ANWR opening ... I'd like the opportunity to change his mind about ANWR," she added.
While McCain previously opposed offshore drilling, this summer he changed his position; he now calls for the moratorium on offshore drilling to be lifted. He has long been a staunch opponent of drilling in the Arctic Refuge, but he's been sounding a little less staunch lately. In June, he indicated at a campaign event in Missouri that he'd be "happy to examine it again."
"ANWR is something that so far Sen. McCain has stood strong on," said Alaska Wilderness League Executive Director Cindy Shogan. "We're very concerned. Gov. Palin is a typical Alaska Republican. She wants to drill everywhere regardless of the impacts on the environment and the people."
On Friday, McCain spokesperson Michael Goldfarb said, "Though Sen. McCain opposes drilling in ANWR, he continues to examine the issue in light of America's energy needs."
"I have really appreciated John McCain's hard work on the Arctic Refuge in the past," said Van Tuyn, who has previously worked with McCain on the issue. "It's just been great. But I have seen the man change before my eyes on so many issues -- even offshore drilling -- and he's said recently he'd reconsider the Arctic Refuge." Van Tuyn said that Palin's selection makes him worry that McCain could shift on this issue as well.
Frank Maisano, who represents the energy industry with the law firm Bracewell & Giuliani LLP, said Palin will lend some first-hand knowledge of the oil industry to the Republican ticket.
"Anybody who has any understanding of the oil industry and what it takes to get a barrel of oil out of the ground and to a consumer eventually, and the hard work and complexity that goes into that, is going to be a value," said Maisano. "Anybody that has to deal with these industries on a regular basis like the governor of Alaska has to is going to have a much deeper understanding of the complexity and the difficulty of doing the work."
Despite her pro-drilling stance, Palin has expressed reservations about drills moving into Alaska's Bristol Bay, which Bush opened to drilling last year. Bristol Bay is home to the world's largest sockeye salmon population and other big salmon runs. Said Palin, "the fear would be that our very rich fish resources would be put in jeopardy." Her family owns a commercial fishing business. At the same time, Palin's husband is an oil production operator for BP on Alaska's North Slope.
Palin made a name for herself in Alaska a few years ago by fighting corruption as chair of the Alaska Gas and Oil Conservation Commission from 2003 to 2004. She ended up resigning from the post to protest the "lack of ethics" demonstrated by fellow Alaskan Republican leaders. Her campaign for governor in 2006 was based largely on promoting transparency in government; she pitted herself against the party establishment to defeat incumbent Gov. Frank Murkowski in the primary.
She has also gone head-to-head with Big Oil over construction plans for a trans-Alaska natural-gas pipeline. She wants one big enough that smaller companies can use it as well as the oil giants, and she didn't like the terms the big companies had been negotiating with the Murkowski administration, which she said would have locked in pipeline-transit rates for decades and given the companies "a sweet deal." ExxonMobil, ConocoPhilips, and BP have fought her pipeline plan, but she's pushing ahead with it.
As for other forms of energy, there is some question as to where Palin stands. McCain has talked up renewables during his campaign, but Palin has been less bullish about their possibilities. "Alternative-energy solutions are far from imminent and would require more than 10 years to develop," she said earlier this month.
Still, some environmental leaders in the state say she has voiced support for wind, hydro, and geothermal power, making her seem more open to renewables than her predecessors in the statehouse. Kate Troll, executive director of Alaska Conservation Voters, said Palin met with her group and seemed enthusiastic about the potential for renewables. But so far there's been little more than verbal support for alternative energy sources.
"She presents a mixed bag of results. She's a real strong supporter of drilling offshore and in the Arctic Refuge, and very strong on oil and gas issues, but at the same time she's very strong on renewable energy," said Troll. "How it all fits together, we don't know, because she's never really articulated her energy policy." Troll says Palin pledged in June to outline a comprehensive energy plan and appointed an energy czar.
Clear and present endangerment
Another major concern for enviros is Palin's stance on endangered species in the state. After the Bush administration's Department of Interior listed the polar bear as a threatened species in May, the governor sued the department. "We believe that the ... decision to list the polar bear was not based on the best scientific and commercial data available," said Palin, who also penned an op-ed in The New York Times on the subject.
Palin and other state officials expressed concern that listing polar bears as threatened would impair oil and gas development in the state. Palin argued that the listing decision was based on "the unproven long-term impact of any future climate change on the species" and that a "comprehensive review" of the federal science by state wildlife officials found no reason to support listing the bears as endangered.
But emails released via a public-records request later showed that Alaskan state scientists agreed with federal researchers that polar bears are threatened by shrinking ice. "Overall, we believe that the methods and analytical approaches used to examine the currently available information supports the primary conclusions and inferences stated" in federal reports, wrote Robert Small, head of the marine mammals program for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.
"This was the Bush administration Fish and Wildlife [Service]. It's not like these people are bear-huggers," said Van Tuyn. "State scientists looked at it and said that's the best science, and Palin said, 'Keep your mouths shut,' and she turned around to the public and said, 'I do not support listing the polar bear, the science doesn't support it.'"
Palin has also opposed efforts to protect Cook Inlet beluga whales, a genetically distinct population of whales located only in this Alaskan inlet. Scientists estimate that they numbered 1,300 in the '80s; now they're down to just 375. Environmental groups have been pressing for a listing to protect the whales, but Palin has urged the federal government not to list, again citing threats to the oil and gas industry. "I am especially concerned that an unnecessary federal listing and designation of critical habitat would do serious long-term damage to the vibrant economy of the Cook Inlet area," said Palin in a statement last year.
Many in the state say she's demonstrated again and again a willingness to protect business interests over environmental concerns. "There isn't a threatened or endangered species that she likes in this state," said Van Tuyn.
Palin has also drawn heat from conservationists for pushing to let citizens shoot wolves from the air, and for supporting looser bear-hunting rules aimed at reducing bear populations in order to inflate numbers of moose and caribou, which draw big-game hunters to the state. She opposed a ballot initiative to change the law so that only Department of Fish and Game personnel could shoot wolves or bears from the air. She drew even more criticism for using $400,000 of taxpayer money to "educate Alaskans" about "predator control." The ballot initiative was voted down last week.
"Decimating them with ongoing perpetual programs is in no way in line with environmentally responsible predator management," said Toppenberg of the Alaska Wildlife Alliance. "The ecosystems up here are intact, but they certainly won't be if we decimate the population in order to artificially inflate the population of moose and caribou."
Mining vs. salmon
Palin has come into criticism recently for using her post as governor to influence a ballot initiative on clean water, which voters also rejected last week. "Proposition 4" would have prohibited or restricted new mining operations that could affect salmon in the state's streams and rivers, and was crafted in order to prevent the development of the Pebble Mine, which if approved would be the largest open-pit gold and copper mine in North America. Toxic runoff from the mine would threaten the Bristol Bay ecosystem, and put drinking water at risk. It is widely opposed by commercial fishers, native populations, and environmentalists in the state. While state regulatory agencies will get the final say on granting permits for the mine, the initiative would have made it considerably harder to move forward.
Just days before the vote on the ballot initiative, Palin stated publicly that she opposed it. "Let me take my governor's hat off just for a minute here and tell you, personally, Prop. 4, I vote no on that," she said. Groups that supported the measure argued that Palin's comments were highly unethical. They also filed a legal complaint against the state government for improperly weighing in against Prop. 4 on the state's website.
The Alaska Public Offices Commission ordered the state to take down the questionable web content, but said Palin's public statement was permissible because she made it clear it was her personal opinion. Polls before her statement showed voters strongly in favor of the measure, but in the end nearly 60 percent of the public voted against it.
"Conventional wisdom around here is that [her statement] changed the tide on the proposition, from narrowly passing to being defeated," said Van Tuyn.
Richard Jameson of the Renewable Resources Coalition, a nonprofit group that represents sportsmen, commercial fishermen, and native subsistence users and that cosponsored Prop. 4, said it's been hard to get Palin to listen to their concerns about potential damage to fisheries. "We really haven't had a good dialogue with her on the Pebble Mine or Prop. 4," he said. "On the bigger issue, Pebble Mine, frankly we don't know how she stands."
On the ticket
David Jenkins, government affairs director of Republicans for Environmental Protection, which endorsed McCain last October, on Friday said he believes Palin "will defer to the top of the ticket" on issues like the Arctic Refuge and climate policy. He also said he thinks she will be an overall benefit to the ticket.
"[McCain's] campaign has shown no sign of wavering on the refuge, so I don't think there's any reason to wring our hands over the pick of someone from Alaska," said Jenkins. "I think it's sort of a wait-and-see situation. She's a good choice from the standpoint of what they need to do in this election."
But other national environmental groups see her selection as a sign that McCain is moving to the right on energy and environmental issues.
"Gov. Palin will simply continue the failed policies of the Bush-Cheney administration and their Big Oil friends -- policies that could make us even more dependent on foreign oil," said League of Conservation Voters President Gene Karpinski. "Gov. Palin characterizes McCain's flip-flop on drilling offshore as a positive step in his transformation from maverick to Big Oil's best friend."
Of course, it's too early to know what sort of influence Palin will have on McCain as a candidate, much less what influence should would have if the two are elected this November. But her record in Alaska does raise questions about the McCain campaign's commitment to environmental protection and climate action.
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Comments
View as Flat
PolluteLessDotCom Posted 11:41 am
31 Aug 2008
Although I believe that being a woman is not enough, many will think exactly that. Experience in office is not relevant either. Obama has little (some say), Bush displays little (others say). If Palin excites voters who are tired of the panic of global warming and prefer to ignore it, voters who wanted a woman in (or near the) office more than anything else, voters who believe that not changing your mind is a sign of strength, religious conservatives, etc., all those who until now preferred to stay home rather than vote for McCain and at least some of those who will not vote for Obama under any circumstances, McCain has found a useful running mate.
Although he said he would choose someone who reflects his values, it is not about being truthful right now - it is about getting into the White house. Politics in the US has little to do with politics. It has been a big show for a long time. Intelligent and educated people are perceived as removed from regular people much more than those who are rich, powerful, and influencual. Those sort of people you get to see on TV and all it takes is some money and you could be like them. Or if you remove the money, they are like you. Palin will be perceived as a regular woman, mother, wife, etc. People will identify with her on a personal level, and her political attitude, reason, or wisdom will matter little.
What McCain needed to find for this election was the female political equivalent to George W. Bush, and on first superficial glance, he may have found her.
Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com
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PolluteLessDotCom Posted 9:10 pm
31 Aug 2008
Karsten
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amazingdrx Posted 9:56 pm
31 Aug 2008
We all want to forget that part of US history, but the comparison is apt.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Steven T Posted 12:46 am
01 Sep 2008
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caniscandida Posted 1:52 am
01 Sep 2008
Friends of biodiversity and animals already look on this woman with horror. She must not be allowed to go to Washington.
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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lennykohm Posted 2:03 am
01 Sep 2008
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caniscandida Posted 3:21 am
01 Sep 2008
http://forums.manhattanbirdclub.com/tool/post/luciedove/v ...
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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Bart Anderson Posted 8:57 am
01 Sep 2008
I think there are two things to consider.
First, does one agree with her on the issues? For me and probably for most Gristmillers, the answer is No.
Second, though, is she someone with whom we could work? I tend to think Yes. She does not seem to be part of the Right-wing machine that's taken over Republican politics.
I like the fact that she comes from local politics and that she's married to a blue collar worker. The fact that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant makes her seem more human to me, and it may make her more tolerant.
I don't mind the fact that she comes from a religious background and has conservative social values. The question is - would she be willing to work with others who have different beliefs?
The fact is that a good percentage of America is made up of people like Sarah Palin and identify with her. If environmentalists and progressives ever want to get anywhere, we must learn NOT to get hung up on symbolic cultural issues, and instead to focus on what we can agree on.
Bart
Energy Bulletin
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Bill from Oregon Posted 12:48 pm
01 Sep 2008
But now Sarah Palin (with her anti-environmental bent) is all over the TV, described as the delight of Evangelicals. Appalling.
Please understand that Palin does not represent most Evangelicals. In fact, she's probably more accurately described as a "fundamentalist." A female version of James Watt.
Yes, she probably will energize the GOP's base among fundamentalists, and among some (but by no means all) Evangelicals. Meanwhile, a number of Evangelicals will favor Obama, in part because of the Democrats' better record on environmental concerns.
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randino Posted 3:00 am
02 Sep 2008
Check out an article "Christian Cabal Vetted Palin" by Max Blumenthal in the web page of the Nation. When people like Dobson, Grover Norquist and the rest of their hell spawned crowd are on their feet applauding a candidate, then you should reasonably suspect that something wicked this way comes.
McSame's strategy all along can be summed up as "I am not a maverick in real life but I play one on TV." He is a down the line right winger. He has an LCV rating in the basement. Palin is given the same kid gloves treatment, just because she has criticized the old guard in Alaska. That is kinda like saying Kruschev was not a communist because he criticized Stalin.
It is not only possible, but probable that something will happen to McCain in office. Palin would be there waiting to take over. It would be a virtual coup by the most far right sector of the Republican party. See what happens to the environment under these earth haters.
This election is our last chance to make progress on issues that will determine the habitability of the planet. There will not be another bite from the apple. Obama is no guarantee. But we all know what McCain means. Everything else is BS.
Randy Cunningham
Cleveland, OH
Randy Cunningham
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Bart Anderson Posted 7:11 am
02 Sep 2008
What I wonder is how strong the ties are between Palin and the Republican machine? Is she an ideological True Believer? Or is she a homegrown original, a cousin to Jesse Ventura?
She certainly has the approval of the machine for the moment. But apparently her nomination is a sudden move, done more for voter-appeal than because she is tightly connected with the machine.
So it still seems to me that she is a wild card.
In any case, I think a full-fire frontal assault is counter-productive, and plays into the hands of the Right. I think a more nuanced approach is called for, otherwise we're back into the Culture Wars, at which the Republicans are so adept.
Apropos, George Lakoff has a great post on The Palin Choice: The Reality of the Political Mind: ... the Palin nomination is not basically about external realities and what Democrats call "issues," but about the symbolic mechanisms of the political mind-the worldviews, frames, metaphors, cultural narratives, and stereotypes. The Republicans can't win on realities. Her job is to speak the language of conservatism, activate the conservative view of the world, and use the advantages that conservatives have in dominating political discourse. What Obama seems to be doing is building an alternate vision that can appeal to cultural conservatives.
Such an approach should avoid anything that could be construed as condescending. It shouldn't act on the basis of stereotypes.
What seems to be monolithic conservativism from the outside is really much more factured.
Bart
Energy Bulletin
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Wolverine Posted 7:52 am
02 Sep 2008
Bart said, "[t]he fact that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant makes her seem more human to me, and it may make her more tolerant." No, that fact means that she has probably been a failure as a parent, and in more ways than one. I couldn't care less whether kids have sex, but they should be taught in all circumstances to take precautions against pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, just as we were. But what do you expect when her daughter has, as an example, a mother who thought nothing of adding five more humans to the grossly overpopulated number.
And things like the right to abortion and overbreeding are not "symbolic cultural issues," but are instead fundamental environmental issues and in the case of the right to abortion, a fundamental human right.
McCain's choice is loathsome in every way. Perhaps Bart has the best strategy for dealing with it, but we should never lose sight of what a hardcore anti-environmentalist Sarah Palin is.
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caniscandida Posted 7:59 am
02 Sep 2008
Yes, this is probably our "last chance" -- which means, it may be time for us to retire into a pleasantly opiated cynicism, with lots of good nostalgic videos, unless Obama can pull a deep-green rabbit out of his Doric-ordered hat.
No, Sarah Palin is not part of the Republican "machine" -- yet. But Republicans have a way of absorbing and co-opting and Cylon-izing all who show the least inclination to identifying themselves as Republican.
Remember, subsequent to 1976, joining the Republican party is a clear sign of a moral deficiency of one kind or another.
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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mreinbold Posted 8:09 am
02 Sep 2008
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mreinbold Posted 8:14 am
02 Sep 2008
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Bart Anderson Posted 9:30 am
02 Sep 2008
I don't know about that landslide victory, mreinbold, but I think you're right that many people instinctively identify with her. I know that I do. For one thing, my sister lived in the Alaskan backcountry for about a dozen years, while she was married to a guy who worked on the oil rigs. It's a different world out there.
So, personally, I like her. It's just that as a politician, she's getting caught up in the Rightwing machine, and I'm not sure she really knows what she's getting involved in. Most of her positions are against the interests of working people and the environment.
A Palin/McCain ticket will just continue the failed policies of the Bush years - war, tax breaks for the rich, declining economy, incompetence. No thank you.
Do you choose a supplier, a carpenter, a surgeon, because you "like them"? Wouldn't you look at their qualifications? Same thing here.
Let Palin stay in Alaska. She and her family will be much happier there.
Bart
Energy Bulletin
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caniscandida Posted 9:43 am
02 Sep 2008
But who in the world is being "venomous"? Sarah Palin brought all this media attention on herself and her family. Bart says he likes her, so sure, of course I trust Bart's judgment. But, to switch metaphors to something more homely and gentle, she made her bed, now let her lie in it.
Bart says also: "Let Palin stay in Alaska." Amen!: an evil, for Alaska and for all Alaska's living creatures; but perhaps it would be the lesser of two evils.
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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randino Posted 12:27 pm
02 Sep 2008
Palin to me is a garden variety right winger. She has been offered up to the jihadi wing of the Republican Party as a loyalty test for McCain. He has passed, but in passing his claim to a Maverick status, much less as a change agent no longer passes the laugh test.
I think a lot of people have had attitudes towards rural and working people that if they were applied to racial minorities would brand them as bigots. I think Rebecca Solnit's recent piece in Orion is a landmark rethinking of these prejudices. But the accusation of eltiism that the Republicans and right level at the drop of a hat is a strategic feint. It uses the resentment of the less educated, for the more educated, in order to cover up the depredations of the REAL elite - the possessors of great wealth, basically the same people who have been running things since the Civil War.
Randy Cunningham
Cleveland, OH
Randy Cunningham
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wiscidea Posted 12:37 pm
02 Sep 2008
Fighting for truth, justice, and the American way?
When did banning books become the American way?
From...
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918, ...
"Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor."
Before you accuse me of conflating "leftist" issues with discussion about preserving the environment... I don't believe anyone can delcare that objection to censorship is a "leftist" issue. Our democracy depends on an educated and informed electorate. Furthermore, we cannot discuss whether our environment should and can be protected if those participating in the discussion are inclined to suppress information.
As far as I'm concerned, a tendency toward banning books alone immediately disqualifies someone from a leadership position in this nation. She could be a strong environmentalist and I would still not support her if she thinks it is okay to ban books from libraries. It is anti-American and an insult to ALL who have died to create and preserve the United States of America.
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wiscidea Posted 12:57 pm
02 Sep 2008
It is difficult to take your comment regarding "venom" seriously when McCain views the following question as crossing the line and inappropriate harassment of their choice for VP.
CNN news anchorwoman Campbell Brown, talking with McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds, asked, "Can you just tell me one decision that she made as commander-in-chief of the Alaskan National Guard, just one?"
Bound couldn't think of one. McCain, outraged, canceled his appearance on Larry King. Geez. If you can't even ask about Palin's experience as commander of the Alaskan National Guard, when the Republican Party is touting it as very important experience, what ARE we allowed to ask about?????!!!!!
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Wolverine Posted 5:31 pm
02 Sep 2008
Re rural people, while I've often found them quite pleasant personally, their politics are usually disgusting. Let's be honest here: it takes some research grounded in some education in order to understand all the B.S. that passes for politics nowadays. Aside from the upper middle- and upper classes, those who support the right tend very strongly to be the least well informed. Most rural people have neither the time for the research nor the education. This is not their fault, but it is reality.
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caniscandida Posted 6:44 pm
02 Sep 2008
Thanks, WiscIdea, for the Time reference. My husband, a librarian, who flies off the handle at all sorts of little things, hauls out the big guns when librarians' protectorship of freedom of speech and information is threatened by people in power.
Also, I saw Campbell Brown's brief interview with that feeble and defensive Palin spokesman, and feel exactly as you about how it went, as well as about the McCain campaign's bizarre reaction.
Wolverine,
good for you, for calling a spade a spade. Barack Obama got a lot of grief for calling (some) rural voters "bitter," and observing that they "cling" to authoritarian religion, and gun rights, and xenophobia, as a kind of defense mechanism. The way the Hillaryites and the GOP spun it, it sounded insulting; but in fact, he was being sympathetic, and he was right.
That "bitter" defense mechanism is visibly in play in this very thread, when MReinbold brandishes that famous anti-"elitist" expression, "flyover country" -- which irks me to no end, as someone who has spent much more time visiting the Plains states and Rocky Mountain states, living in Montana and New Mexico, and spending much much more time there than ever in California, for example, and never having visited Seattle and DR and BioD.
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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Delay And Deny Posted 10:19 pm
02 Sep 2008
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/alaska-part ...
"On Tuesday night, Ms. Clark said that her initial statement was incorrect and had been based on erroneous information provided by another member of the party whom she declined to identify. The McCain campaign also disputed the Times report, saying that Ms. Palin had been registered consistently as a Republican.
After checking the party's archives, Ms. Clark said that she could find no documentation that Governor Palin had been a member of the party. She said Ms. Palin attended the party's 1994 and 2006 conventions and provided a video-taped address as governor to the 2008 convention. "
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mreinbold Posted 11:38 pm
02 Sep 2008
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wiscidea Posted 11:38 pm
02 Sep 2008
I missed the transition from compliment to pejorative. And the fellow teaching the linguistics class I took about twenty years ago said language changes too slowly for any of us to recognize it during our lifetime.
Anyway... the elite are the best of the best, those who thoroughly undertand their field, whether military, science, politics, foreign policy, et cetera. Elite troops are the most skilled warriors. Elite foreign policy experts have a thorough undertanding of history and the potential consequences of their decsions. I WANT leaders drawn from the elite! Why would someone want leaders who are not knowledgeable, experienced, wise? Why would someone want leaders who are amateurs and have to get up to speed by studying issues onl when a crisis arises?! We've seen the results of eight years of leadership by amateurs. Please... bring back the elites!
fly-over country
I can't put my finger on exactly why this annoys me, but every time someone uses the phrase I just want to stop listening to them. It suggests the user's mind is filled with stereotypes and prejudice. The region of North America between the east and west coasts is very diverse, ethnically, culturally, poitically. There are right-wing conservatives, progressives, libertarians, socialists. There are people who minimize the value of education, probably, and there are people who strongly embrace it. Before someone says: Ethnic diversity? You're all white!" Well, that's a load a crap. I don't know what the exact racial breakdown is, but let's assume we ARE primarily white. Keep in mind that the area was settled by people from all over Europe. The English, Germans, Italians, Poles, French, Welsh, Irish, et cetera who arrived from different places, at different times, for different reasons, brought with them a diverse array of values.
STOP GENERALIZING!
I live a few miles from the farm Fighting Bob LaFollette grew up on. This is still a progressive area. We value education, political participation, and informed discussion of issues. Sarah Palin will not sway voters here by being a simple "hockey mom".
Okay... I'll try to calm down,
Peace.
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mreinbold Posted 11:41 pm
02 Sep 2008
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mreinbold Posted 11:42 pm
02 Sep 2008
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mreinbold Posted 11:46 pm
02 Sep 2008
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mreinbold Posted 11:53 pm
02 Sep 2008
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mreinbold Posted 11:55 pm
02 Sep 2008
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RON M Posted 12:17 am
03 Sep 2008
Arnold flies by jet almost every day to and from his home in Brentwood, CA to Sacramento, Ca where his office is. That equals about 1000 miles per day. Arnold also drives a Hummer. If this is Green then we are all in trouble.
Ron Maron
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wiscidea Posted 1:33 am
03 Sep 2008
Regarding Madison...
I prefer to view it as 57 square miles OF reality. We actually pay attention to world events and try to understand them. We prefer to form our opinions by examining facts, rather than forcing reality to conform to an ideology.
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wiscidea Posted 1:36 am
03 Sep 2008
Is banning books an American value and acceptable behavior for a leader in this country?
Is it okay to ask for details regarding Palin's experience as commander of the Alaska National Guard or do you consider that a venomous attack the crosses the line?
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wiscidea Posted 1:43 am
03 Sep 2008
Discussion about Palin's daughter's pregnancy and the boyfriend's comments regarding never wanting children might be inappropriate. They are personal matters.
Would you agree, then, that interfering with a person's decision to marry someone of the same sex is also a personal matter? And the government should not become involved in this by banning gay marriage?
Just trying to figure out when stuff is personal and when it is not.
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Jon Rynn Posted 1:53 am
03 Sep 2008
The fact that she is rural and fairly "untouched" by the city or the rest of the world has the far right fainting with joy, which the gun-toting emphasizes. World Net Daily has a piece from good ol' Pat Buchanan on how wonderful she is. She'll be the leading candidate in 2012 or 2016 at this rate.
Remember, far right-wingers want very little out of the government, basically an end to abortion, maybe to gays, and a large military. So the fact that she doesn't know anything about either the United States or the world is not a problem for the far right, it's almost a virtue.
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amazingdrx Posted 2:12 am
03 Sep 2008
McCain, no executive experience.
Just like Abe Lincoln, JFK, FDR, and Barack.
President Palin! She ran a state with a population of 600,000, and six or seven huge oil companies, for 20 months!
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Jon Rynn Posted 2:17 am
03 Sep 2008
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vakibs Posted 2:31 am
03 Sep 2008
But this is not the point in discussing this. Ignore Palin, focus on the issues.
She is just a card drawn out by the Republican party to hide the extreme un-interestingness of their candidate or his policies. Democrats will be walking right into their game by talking more and more over Palin.
McCain and his team are getting worried about the general perception of Obama, how charming he is, and how smart he speaks etc.. Putting Palin on the ticket is a desperate attempt.
This election is too important to waste time on silly matters such as Palin. Let's just give Palin the amount of space that she deserves -- which is 0.00000001 times the space allocated to real burning issues such as energy security, environment, economy, depletion of American soft power in the world and so on..
Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.
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mreinbold Posted 2:48 am
03 Sep 2008
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wiscidea Posted 2:58 am
03 Sep 2008
Is banning books an American value and acceptable behavior for a leader in this country?
Is it okay to ask for details regarding Palin's experience as commander of the Alaska National Guard or do you consider that a venomous attack the crosses the line?
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randino Posted 3:04 am
03 Sep 2008
I would never think to go on a consevative web site just so I could sneer at, laugh at, and bash the other posters. But I am not a freak - opps, I mean conservative, so I guess I cannot understand their twisted idea of fun.
Randy Cunningham
Cleveland, OH
Randy Cunningham
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amazingdrx Posted 3:16 am
03 Sep 2008
Defrauding your employer is hardly the act of a loyal GOP corporate contractor slave.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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mreinbold Posted 3:20 am
03 Sep 2008
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caniscandida Posted 3:20 am
03 Sep 2008
Senator Obama is quite correct to say that families of politicians, especially their children, should be "off limits";
still, it was a kind gesture on the part of the Washington Post's Dana Milbank to pass along some wag's reference to Bristol as "the Juno of Juneau";
and we may very well ask, if it had been cute big brother Track Palin (see http://www.zimbio.com/Track+Palin/polls/1/) who was discovered in the igloo rubbing noses with young Levi, and who later announced his intention to run off with Levi to Vancouver and get married, would Sarah Palin have delivered the news to us with equal aplomb: "It is something that happens in families, and it just means that our boy will have to grow up faster"?
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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mreinbold Posted 3:23 am
03 Sep 2008
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wiscidea Posted 3:37 am
03 Sep 2008
After responding to the following questions...
Is banning books an American value and acceptable behavior for a leader in this country?
Is it okay to ask for details regarding Palin's experience as commander of the Alaska National Guard or do you consider that a venomous attack the crosses the line?
... could you please explain why you believe environmentalism is a home for communists? Since I'm an environmentalist, but not a communists, it is sort of important to know who I should watch out for. Thank you.
By the way, I've found that having a different opinion does not necessarily make a person a troll here. Posting hostile remarks, especially the same ones, over and over, without providing a shred of explanation or reason for your remarks might make a person a troll. Actually, I'm pretty sure it does. Are you here to discuss whether Palin is qualified for the job of VP or simply to make noise? I've asked a couple questions. Educate us.
What will Palin contribute to conserving resources for future generations?
Is banning books an American value and acceptable behavior for a leader in this country?
Is it okay to ask for details regarding Palin's experience as commander of the Alaska National Guard or do you consider that a venomous attack the crosses the line?
Is teenage pregnancy a personal matter, but marriage to someone of the same sex not a personal matter?
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amazingdrx Posted 3:42 am
03 Sep 2008
The tabloids will be all over the Palin and McCain families now. That means we can stay above the sleaze, hehey.
But of course the GOP children, emulating the stripper dating, macho, young McCain, sowing their wild oats, have the family values abstinence training example set by the Palin family to restrain them. Thank gaaawd!
How many millions has the ex-brother-in-law, targeted for firing by the Guv, been offered to divulge tabloid dirt on the Palins? This whole story is tabloid gold. And who loves tabloid stories? Drudge, O'Really, Fauxnews, dimbulb limboobs everywhere, and the millions of tabloid readers, mainly the GOP faithfilled.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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mreinbold Posted 3:51 am
03 Sep 2008
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Paleocon Posted 4:00 am
03 Sep 2008
What do you want to use a measuring stick? IQ? Formal education? World travel? Languages spoken? Money donated to NPR?
I don't agree with you, but I don't trade on your deficiencies in the aforementioned categories.
Make your argument. I won't hold your lack of education or intelligence against you.
Your opinions are just as valid as mine.
Try showing others the same level of respect.
"...a 90 percent chance that the US has contributed .2 degrees F of temperature increase in the last 50 years..." The IPCC Consensus in perspective
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Paleocon Posted 4:07 am
03 Sep 2008
The left doesn't see the irony here.
They don't care about Ayers or Wright except that they illuminate the truth about what the left believes. Liberals win when the successfully hide what they believe.
The media has not beaten the "GRAVITAS" drum regarding Biden. Remember Cheney? Bush was so inexperienced (Governor of Texas) that he needed a father figure to hold his hand.
If McCain can actually win in the face of media and pop culture bias, it will be an amazing thing to behold.
"...a 90 percent chance that the US has contributed .2 degrees F of temperature increase in the last 50 years..." The IPCC Consensus in perspective
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amazingdrx Posted 4:26 am
03 Sep 2008
And presidents who have. Duuhbya. For instance. Whoops. (Thanks to the mighty Colbert)
So it should be Palin/McCain? Yep, if executive experience is the measure.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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amazingdrx Posted 4:29 am
03 Sep 2008
Would it be ok if a swiftboat hit book came out on Palin/McCain? (your new executive experience ticket)
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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randino Posted 5:13 am
03 Sep 2008
I am constantly amazed at how conservatives who shout to the heavens their love of the out of doors, while consistently backing the rape, loot and pillage politics of the Repubican Party. Maybe the problem is that what we are dealing with here is not conservatism, but a brand of corporate driven, reactionary politics that is more than willing to use the state as its enforcer and bag man.
I think mreingold should pay a little less attention to the speck that is in the eye of environmentalism, and a little more attention to the log in his own eye.
Randy Cunningham
Cleveland, OH
Randy Cunningham
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caniscandida Posted 5:14 am
03 Sep 2008
Is that global experience, or what?!
At least one American is celebrating: Tina Fey. The Hollywood producers back on Friday locked her up to play Palin in the movie -- or only after offering her billions.
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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caniscandida Posted 5:19 am
03 Sep 2008
MReinbold and his ilk, by contrast, say: "You're on your own"; "God damn love, love is collective."
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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wiscidea Posted 5:27 am
03 Sep 2008
On to other matters...
You wrote...
"Are you a socialist? Do you hate capitalism? The answer to that is pretty obvious."
It certainly isn't obvious to me. Please elaborate. Keep in mind that you are interacting with a stupid liberal. While some of us might be making your points for you and obviously one thing or another, it might not be obvious to to everyone here. So... am I a socialist, do I hate capitalism, and how did you reach these conclusions?
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mreinbold Posted 5:53 am
03 Sep 2008
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mreinbold Posted 5:55 am
03 Sep 2008
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wiscidea Posted 5:57 am
03 Sep 2008
So don't waste time dredging up other candidates or Democratic issues. Senators Obama and McCain were not my preferred choices on either ticket.
The issue on the table right down is whether Sarah Palin is qualified to lead our nation. And, unless you can provide a really good case, I would choose Obama for President, even if I preferred McCain, simply because I do not want a book-banning anti-science Christian fundamentalist who thinks it is okay to shoot wolves for entertainment a heart beat away from the Presidency. This is not a left vs. right problem. Nothing to do with communism, socialism, or hating capitalism. Nothing to do with a leftist agenda.
Our nation can no longer afford to embrace ignorance and wanton destruction of nature as virtues.
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wiscidea Posted 6:00 am
03 Sep 2008
Please elaborate.
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caniscandida Posted 7:01 am
03 Sep 2008
What I cannot stand is the use by conservatives (such as George Will) of the all-purpose word "collective," and its derivative "collectivist," as somehow evil and diabolic: much as they did with "liberal" a couple of decades ago.
We members of ancient Mediterranean religions, such as Judaism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism, admire collectivism a great deal, and are offended and disgusted by Republicans' constant regular on-going anti-religious super-sneering attack on what we consider to be a principal virtue, as our Lord affirmed: loving a neighbor as one's self.
Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
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Pangolin Posted 8:11 am
03 Sep 2008
When the VPilF is on stage nobodies going to be looking at the old zombie himself and wondering if he can really cut it. He must be vigourous see, he's got that stacked babe backing him up. It's the Hugh Hefner campaign strategy.
Anybody who believes that Sara Palin is governor of Alaska over the opposition of the oil companies doesn't have their heads screwed on straight. She cut a deal with them and careful examination will show wich side of the deal profits most. It's not the good citizens of Alaska.
As to her "experience" governing 650,000 people that would be about the same as being mayor of Fort Worth or Memphis has the qualifications to be president. Of course it helps that AK gets a per-capita subsidy of at least $2,100 ()1997) in their federal balance of payments in addition to the money from the Oil to make the whole place a literal welfare state. Actually looking at the figures as to who pays the feds and who gets paid "flyover country" looks like a bad deal financially.
So lets not forget that if Sara Palin is in office when John McCain kicks off you can kick Climate Change legislation good-bye as well as wind, solar and geothermal and any critter that's endangered just makes a more valuable trophy. She's a fundy and believes the great sky god will make everything right in the "end times."
If that's 'conservative' god only knows what radical means. Something crazy like storing seven years grain in silos, living off your lands income and securing the health and welfare of your neighbors knowing that your own future health is uncertain. Visiting the sick and imprisoned is good too. God only knows where I get those crazy ideas.
Put the Carbon Back
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randino Posted 8:32 am
03 Sep 2008
In contrast, listen to what one of mreingold's heroes said. I will leave it up to you if it was before or after she got Alzheimers. "There is no such thing as society. There are only individuals and their families." - Margaret Thatcher.
Yup, the conservative creed. No such thing as society, just a battlefield of everyone out for themselves. Me, me, me. Get yours. People who have a hard time feeling any responsibility for other people, will have an even harder time feeling any responsibility for the planet.
If McCain and Pallin get in, close up Grist. The party is over. Scratch another civilization off the old historical record. We will finally fulfill our long term mission of environmenatl suicide.
Randy Cunningham
Cleveland, OH
Randy Cunningham
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Pangolin Posted 9:19 am
03 Sep 2008
That's why if you look at their theology you'll notice that they like to spend lots of time in the Old Testament and Revelations and skip the Gospels entirely.
"Jesus is gonna come back and he's going to be an eight foot tall blond white guy with an affinity for machine guns an nuculuar weapons and he's gonna kick ass on all you other tribes."
Just watch.
Put the Carbon Back
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mreinbold Posted 10:16 am
03 Sep 2008
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alaskankid Posted 10:56 am
03 Sep 2008
Sarah Palin may like to snowmachine and hunt for moose, but she is anti-environment when she has to choose between fish & wildlife and big polluting mines. Here is the proof.
At the web site below, play the video on the left side of the page that reads
"Governor opposes Ballot Measure 4"
http://tinyurl.com/6xa6pf
Read more about the proposed Pebble mine in Fish Alaska magazine, a sport fishing magazine put out by Alaskans (it's long, but please read the whole article)
http://tinyurl.com/5senuq
Gov. Palin recently came out against Alaska ballot measure 4, a clean water initiative. It is illegal for the governor to take sides on a ballot initiative, but she did anyway, probably breaking the law. Her Department of Natural Resources web site had an information page that was clearly against measure 4, and they were forced to take it down.
Measure 4 was aimed at stopping the huge Pebble mine project, which scientists believe has a very high probability of polluting the watershed that drains into the largest salmon producing river system in the world. It will be the largest open-pit mine in the world. Palin's illegal stand against ballot measure 4, and the millions of dollars of misleading advertising by the two foreign mining companies behind the Pebble, who have a terrible track record of pollution, helped the initiative fail in last Tuesday's election. The Pebble mine, if allowed to proceed, will likely become Alaska's worst environmental disaster. The scope of this project is just unbelievable. Even the Juneau Empire (owned by a conservative Georgia newspaper chain) came out in favor of last Tuesday's ballot measure 4.
http://tinyurl.com/6gbyvt
Ballot measure 4 was an attempt to bring back the clean water regulations that were in effect before Palin's predecessor, former Republican governor Frank Murkowski, gutted them by allowing mixing zones in salmon streams.
http://tinyurl.com/644y69
I guess it's not unusual for someone who doesn't believe in evolution to not give a damn about the environment.
http://tinyurl.com/69ld67
Sarah Palin has been on TV in the last few days using the term "environmental extremists". That speaks volumes.
I became a life member of the NRA when I was a teenager. Being an NRA member doesn't mean you are going to automatically work to protect sport fishing resources.
And Palin is talking about Joe Biden voting against the Trans-Alaska pipeline way back when.
http://tinyurl.com/5vnaz7
She doesn't mention the fact that the original pipeline proposal was for 800 miles of mostly buried pipe, much of it through permafrost, which would have been an environmental disaster, and was an engineering folly. I was on the pipeline VSM (vertical support members) drill crew in 1975 that bored through ten-foot layers of crystal clear ice. We drilled holes about 20 to 60 feet deep from Franklin Bluffs all the way to Prudhoe Bay. We saw lots of ice, and the rule was we had to drill an extra ten feet deeper for every ten feet of ice that we encountered. The VSM's, which hung the pipe high above the ground, used passive refrigeration to keep the ground frozen. They were not part of the original proposal. The original pipeline proposal was irresponsible, and pure fantasy. Joe Biden's vote against the pipeline, as proposed, three years after environmentalists and Native leaders stopped the original plan, is not surprising. Why trust an industry that, only three years earlier, wanted to bury hot pipe in ice?
Joe Biden favored a pipeline that would run from Alaska into Canada and join Canada's pipeline system to the midwest US, giving us the oil instead of the Asian markets where the oil companies could make a little more money. He didn't trust single-hull tankers to move all of that oil, so he voted no. He was right about those single-hull tankers; we got the Exxon-Valdez disaster. To this day the oil remains in the sediments of Prince William Sound, ruining the beach sediments and benthic sediments.
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Paleocon Posted 4:18 am
04 Sep 2008
News flash:
The majority of your fellow humans are more concerned with AIDS research, daycare, Burning Man motor homes, continuing abortions, banning guns, and losing the war in Iraq.
All of which are fueled by oil.
Maybe you could link to some horror pics of the benthic disaster to drum up some sympathy.
By the way, try beating someone else over the head with enviro-babble.
Gas chromatography fingerprinting allows us to determine that the hydrocarbons in the benthic sediments of Prince William Sound are the result of natural seepage NOT spilled oil.
Oil is natural. There are organisms that eat it. Oil seeps out of the sea floor.
Get over it.
"...a 90 percent chance that the US has contributed .2 degrees F of temperature increase in the last 50 years..." The IPCC Consensus in perspective
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Paleocon Posted 4:32 am
04 Sep 2008
Voting "present" doesn't "change" anything.
Dr. X, I am not a liberal. So I have no need to engage in nonsensical arguments like this. I don't need to hide what I really believe like Obama does.
I support McCain because he represents my world view more so than Obama.
If Obama was not a Wright/Ayers/Frank Marshall Davis communist I would be voting for him. I wish I could vote for him. It would feel great to vote for a black president.
I am troubled that Obama can't be honest about what he really believes.
Guys like Wolverine, I can respect because he freely shares his hatred for this country and his self loathing/ loathing of his fellow humans.
"...a 90 percent chance that the US has contributed .2 degrees F of temperature increase in the last 50 years..." The IPCC Consensus in perspective
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amazingdrx Posted 4:55 am
04 Sep 2008
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Zephaniah Posted 2:00 am
07 Sep 2008
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GonzoDon Posted 11:43 am
08 Sep 2008
.. well, in the United States and probably in that other fundamentatlist republic known as "Iran", too.
Is the U.S. a great country, or what?
(Meanwhile, the rest of the civilized world laughs at us. While they happily take our dollars in trade, and quietly zip past us in science and engineering training).
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Pangolin Posted 12:02 pm
08 Sep 2008
If you were on a hospital bed and asked your surgeon what his class standing was before he cracked your chest and he said "5th from the bottom" you'd jump off the table. That's John McCain.
Sarah Palin managed to get a degree attending six colleges in six years. It appears that coming from Alaska she could never get used to the weather anywhere else. If she releases her transcripts before election day I'll eat a bug. She's a moron at everything but junior-high politics.
What the heck is wrong with us anyway?
Put the Carbon Back
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fascistmedia Posted 2:48 pm
11 Sep 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFueq-q5mk
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jose Posted 12:39 pm
04 Dec 2008
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