Methane from Vermont dairy farms to provide electricity for utility customers 12

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1. 

   caniscandida Posted 5:22 am
   20 Oct 2007

   And Little Dog laughs.Hurray for Vermont!
   When we were in Vermont a couple of weekends ago, I would have wanted very much to visit a dairy farm, but had not done sufficient research or made preparations.  Nor did I know that there is an alpaca ranch near where we stayed.  Nor did I find anyone to chat with about wildlife, e.g. possible sightings of mountain lions.  Oh well, maybe next time.
   
   Chickens are our cousins! So are fish! So are other sentient animals! Let us learn to be kind.

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2. 

   John former Marine Posted 5:46 am
   21 Oct 2007

   Dairy Farms are NOT good...Ok, capturing the cow farts is an improvement.  But those manure lagoons overflowing with millions of gallons of poop are the result of a factory farming industry.  They cram hundreds of cows into barns, feed them concentrated calories of corn and soy (that could feed humans), pump them up with hormones and antibiotics, and all for a product that is a "luxury" that isn't necessary for human health but that we've been programmed ("Got Milk?") to think that we need every single day.  I should also mention that some of these farms really do treat their animals well and have an eye on sustainability but economics today dictates that you have to use the animals hard and use the land hard to get the millions of gallons of cheap milk that American consumers want.  Many farmers couldn't care less about conservation and let their cows graze right down to the banks of Vermont rivers and streams.  No...I'm not badmouthing dairy farmers with my mouth full of cheese.  I don't consume dairy products because they're a waste of resources and pollute the environment.  If you don't drink milk either, we won't have this huge pile of cow crap to deal with.  Or any methane to trap and burn off.
   
        All that being said...if Americans just can't fathom giving up milk because they're scared of losing bone density (you should look instead at your Pepsi/Coke and ciggarettes), they can continue consuming mounds of products that the Harvard Nurse's Study showed doesn't support healthy bones.  And they should pay taxes on their dairy purchases that repair the damage done to Vermont soils, rivers, and streams and contribute to global warming.

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3. 

   caniscandida Posted 8:05 am
   21 Oct 2007

   fromage dans la boucheRight, JohnfM, being able to profit from the sale of manure would seem to encourage CAFOs, or something nearly as bad, and a result like that would be not good at all.  We should be in the business of strongly and unmistakably discouraging the inhumane treatment of captive animals, whether it takes place in CAFOs or on "organic free-range" farms.
   Presumably Erik is thinking that the cows of Vermont are going to poop anyway, so why not do something constructive with it.  I for my part, most naively, would like to believe that the dairy farmers of Vermont of course treat their cows very well.  But I understand I would need to verify that, with my own inspection.  Even if the cows are kept in decent, safe accommodations, with plenty of freedom to wander and graze, their captivity is certainly not humane if they must endure constant impregnation, pregnancy, birth, and the separation from their new-born calf.  And then, another big question is, What happens to those calves?
   All the cheese and milk that my husband, the cook, buys is imported from Europe, mostly Italy and France, sometimes Spain and Greece.  He has the idea that dairy cattle in Europe are surely treated better than are dairy cattle in this country.  Well, one can see why he thinks that.  But in fact, we entertain these and similar ideas with no good hard evidence -- disgraceful sloppiness on our part.
   
   Chickens are our cousins! So are fish! So are other sentient animals! Let us learn to be kind.

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4. 

   spaceshaper Posted 9:07 am
   21 Oct 2007

   Yes,hard to imagine capturing cow poop methane from anything but a CAFO - with a pastured dairy operation you'd have to scrape it up from the fields?
   
   The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

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5. 

   SMLowry Posted 9:20 am
   21 Oct 2007

   Vermont farmsI lived in Vermont for 20 years and I never saw a manure lagoon. They may have been there, but none of the farms I visited or knew had one. What I did see is cows going into the barn at night and staying there during really cold days in the winter. There's plenty of manure mixed with hay and urine that happens and it needs to be cleaned out every day. So even grazed cows will produce a certain amount of collectable poop. I don't think Vermont dairy farms are large enough to cram hundreds of cows in a barn either, though that is probably true in the midwest, I don't know. Much of the milk that is turned into handcrafted, farmstead cheeses comes from small farms using high quality milk from well-treated cows. (I'm not including Cabot cheese in that category). My oldest son has worked for years on an organic dairy farm and has many friends with small herds that milk regularly. So this is where my information comes from. (And visiting the farm where Jason works).

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6. 

   SMLowry Posted 9:22 am
   21 Oct 2007

   ohIn re-reading that I didn't make it clear that the farm Jason worked on is in Vermont. I guess I should preview . . .

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7. 

   spaceshaper Posted 10:01 am
   21 Oct 2007

   LagoonsI somehow doubt the poop is coming from cleaning out shelter barns in winter. The farm referenced in the article, the fourth to join the program, was a 700-cow operation, and I strongly suspect they're all that large. I've lived in dairy country all my life - though not in Vermont - and I've never seen a pastured dairy operation even close to that size.
   
   The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

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8. 

   C4nier Posted 11:24 am
   21 Oct 2007

   Where are the lagoons?Thank you, Caniscandida for the laugh.  I truly hope that you did enjoy your trip to Vermont.  But don't feel sorry about missing the dairy farms. These are NOT tourist operations, perhaps with the exception of tiny gentleman's farm operations. Alpacas, well they're warm and fuzzy but also used to guard sheep up here, so most aren't overly friendly.  But you got to see the leaves, right? That's what is important :+)
   SMLowry, I too live in Vermont.  And I (unfortunately) have a job which requires me to spend quite a bit of time on dairy and beef farms.  No two farmers come from the same mold and most farms operate as the farmer (obstinately) sees fit.  I've seen a few, that are to be commended, but most of them are in violation of their farm management plan, i.e. they allow their cows to graze right down to streams causing erosion and destroying riparian vegetation, they pasture cattle on highly erodible lands, and don't contain their manure properly.  Most farms are in some form of non-compliance and the USDA works with them, rather than causing a stir.  This can easily go on for years.
   So, where are the lagoons you ask?  Depending on the operation - 200 dairy cows is "small" and 800 would definitely be large - manure is required to be dealt with in different ways.  Usually it's an earthen circular mound adjacent to a barn at ground level, or just above. You can see them in aerial photos of dairy farms.  But the newer ones are large concrete impoundments similar to swimming pools, with ladders in and out.  Now, try to imagine a concrete pool with liquefied brown poop filled to the surface and bubbling in the midday sun.  It ferments there until the liquidy part can be spread on the fields and eventually run into our streams and waterways. Once most of the liquid is gone the rest can be treated as solid waste through composting, landfills, etc.  Can you imagine (really I know that you can't) how badly this all stinks?  JFM and spaceshaper are correct.  This is poop captured ONLY from the barns, otherwise it is deposited in the field and runs off from there.  USDA and Farm Service Agency are working hard to get everyone using these new impoundments with, you guessed it, our tax dollars.  At least then they will be able to capture some of the methane and I would think use it on site at least.  I saw that on much smaller operations in Costa Rica.  And it should help to control the increasing algae blooms in Lake Champlain.
   The untold story here is that the neighbors of these farmers are ecstatic!  Yes, they do get used to the smell to some degree, but you can't imagine the stench for miles when it gets hot or when it is spread on the field, which takes place several times a year.  Farmers who sell off parts of their land for housing development now add "right to farm" clauses to deeds because many of the city folk who move up here don't think for a second that they'll be banished indoors during the summers because of the stench.  And many take the city approach to dealing with it by suing the farmers. (Of course, this is nothing compared to CAFO operations for pigs and cattle.)
   No, the rule is not true CAFO up in this part of the country.  But most cows are eating corn, which is really hard on their system and makes for the regular watery bowel movements.  (And try to get the smell off of your shoes - forget it!)  But the operations supplying the bulk of milk and cheese are also not idyllic places.  Cows are milked twice a day, or more if treated with hormones, by machine, even on the smallest operations (thank you tax dollars!) They're male offspring do usually become veal.   And the poor heifers, when out to pasture, have painfully swollen udders, which if you're choosing organic cows, often become infected with mastitis.  This is what provides the heavy dose of puss in milk requiring it's pasteurization (along with the feces, of course).  These farmers aren't bad guys.  But they do this for a living and they don't think of or treat the animals as pets. The cows are simply a form of income for them, and they never lose site of that.        
   Worth noting is that cattle raised for beef don't spend as much time inside as dairy cows.  They're manure is not generally kept in impoundments, except maybe during the winter as SMLowry noted.  But without grants for impoundments most farmers prefer to just wash it out the back door and let it run-off where it may.  
   All that said, I don't think methane power (or cow power as we call it) is a bad idea.  It's just not exactly "green".  It's making the best of a bad situation.  We could do a lot more on farms to capture greenhouse gases and reduce water quality impacts.  But it all comes down to laws (and most farmers will gripe for hours about all their obligations) or providing technical assistance and the money to implement recommendations.  We are heavily subsidizing this private industry. If we were paying the true cost of dairy/meat many people wouldn't come close to affording it or naturally reduce their consumption.

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9. 

   C4nier Posted 11:26 am
   21 Oct 2007

   Grass fed beefSorry, I wanted to clarify that the beef cattle operations I was referring to are grazed pasture beef

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10. 

    trock Posted 11:37 am
    21 Oct 2007

    doing it in the 1970'sI grew up on a farm and there was some promotion of this in the 1970's.  Any manure from animals can be used.  I imagine if they don't collect it like they do here, if it's in a lagoon or just dumped by the animal in a field, it will give off the methane on it's own.   So what this does is collect something that's going to go into the atmosphere anyway.  
    I think the only way that manure doesn't outgas methane from this manure is if its plowed under soon after it 'arrives.'   (not completely sure of that, but somewhat sure)

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11. 

    John former Marine Posted 12:46 am
    22 Oct 2007

    back in the 70sYeah, I know...back then you didn't have STDs to really worry about either.
    But yes, livestock is a major contributor to global warming.  Saying "it's going to happen anyways so why don't we make the best of the situation?" doesn't cut it for me.  We have too many cows.  We don't need them all.  We produce way too much milk.  And we subsidize farmers to continue producing a product that we're not willing to pay $5.00 a gallon for.  
    The subsidies cause overproduction and the excess is fed to our children in school lunches.  The kids eat sloppy joes one day, cheeseburgers the next, and pizza the third.  The menu is almost completely unhealthful because schools are reaping Dept. of Ag's corn, soy, wheat, cheese, etc.  This, in turn, is going to cause a huge health problem for the country later down the road.  These kids are already showing blockage in their arteries at 10 years old.  Stop subsidizing milk...it is unhealthful and terrible for the environment.  A better way to deal with the methane would be to reduce those 800 cow herds to 200 cow herds and have everybody eat a lot less cheese.  Of course, here in Vermont, dairy is untouchable.  And the spoiled rich people who move here for the quaintness love eating their brie and gruyere but like to feel "green" while they're doing it.  So we pretend that our widespread dairy practices are green and part of some larger conservation movement.  Addressing the global warming problem for real would require everybody to eat fewer dairy products and those rich people would have to have their views spoiled by wind turbines.  Wind energy is a lot greener than cleaning up the tail end of a terrible industrial practice like dairy farming.  
    Dairy should be a luxury.  We shouldn't be draining aquifers in Utah to grow alfalfa in the desert so that people can buy brie in Moab.

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12. 

    SMLowry Posted 7:17 am
    22 Oct 2007

    Good infoThanks, everyone, for all the great info on farms in Vermont. The farm my son has worked on is in Marshfield, it's organic and I think right now they're milking about 60 cows. So it's small. The other dairy farms I'm familiar with are in the same area and also less than 200 cows. When I lived in Vermont, there was an organization called Rural Vermont, not sure if it still exists or not, and they worked mostly on anti-BGH (bovine growth hormone) issues and small farm issues -- it was the small farmers generally who opposed using BGH to increase milk production. (One of the main research farms for BGH was, by the way, the University of Vermont, so it was a big deal for us).
    
       The farmer my son works with actually goes around barefoot in the summer, in the barn and elsewhere (unless he's working with machinery). Something I can't imagine, even though it sounds like the barn is much better, generally, than others folks are writing about here.
    
       Farmers, and others who earn their living off the land, are a stubborn group for sure. They see things the way they see them and that's that. Very hard to change minds, very hard to bring in new ideas.

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