Norris McDonald, president of the African American Environmentalist Association, answers questionsNo 0

With what environmental organization are you affiliated?

I'm president of the African American Environmentalist Association.

What does your organization do? What, in a perfect world, would constitute "mission accomplished"?

The African American Environmentalist Association, founded in 1985, is one of the nation's oldest African American-led environmental organizations. We are dedicated to protecting the environment, enhancing human, animal, and plant ecologies, promoting the efficient use of natural resources, and increasing African American participation in the environmental movement.

AAEA has sponsored creek walks, river tours, Chesapeake Bay tours, internships with most of the mainstream environmental organizations, and tours of toxics sites, power plants, drinking-water plants, sewage treatment plants, and conservation farms. We lobby Congress and state and local agencies to protect the environment. We speak all over the country. We recently participated in programs of the New York Urban League, Black Enterprise magazine, the Society of Environmental Journalists, and the Legislative Black Caucus of Maryland. We work on environmental justice. We challenge the traditional environmental community to expand their budgets, agendas, and staffs to include African American participation.

Our main goal is to deliver environmental information and services directly into communities. We work to clean up neighborhoods by implementing toxics education and energy, water, and clean-air programs. We welcome all races interested in working for improvements in the African-American community.

In a perfect world we would eliminate smog, acid rain, and global warming through a combination of plug-in fuel-cell electric vehicles, wind power, photovoltaic power, nuclear power plants, clean coal, and ocean-based electric generation systems.

What are you working on at the moment?

We recently testified in the Maryland legislature to help pass a clean-cars emissions bill and a four-pollutant bill. We are currently working with a coalition to take nuclear-waste management out of the Department of Energy and place it in an independent nuclear-waste management agency. We are also working to amend the Clear Skies legislation to include an Environmental Justice Allowance Reserve amendment. It is basically designed to protect minority and low-income communities if the legislation is passed.

What long and winding road led you to your current position?

I have been a professional environmentalist for 26 years. I started in 1979 with the Environmental Policy Center/Institute (now Friends of the Earth). I directed the Energy Conservation and Transportation Project and started AAEA in 1985.

I became a chronic, acute asthmatic in 1991 (the hottest year on record at the time). I became a single parent with full custody of my son after a divorce in 1994. These two events led to a reevaluation of how I could and would approach my environmental work. I gave up on building a very large organization and downsized to work to accomplish large victories through small, concentrated efforts. As a result, AAEA is a small, volunteer organization. We have been reasonably successful in accomplishing the missions we target. We have supported some environmentally friendly development projects.

These adjustments were reasonable because I went into respiratory failure on July 21, 1991, and again in 1996. I attribute these near-death experiences to smog.

How many emails are currently in your inbox?

There are always hundreds of emails in my various inboxes. I designed, built, and now run 15 websites and have to check emails on all of them. I feel like I am on the Nebuchadnezzar (Morpheus' ship in the movie The Matrix) monitoring multiple computer screens viewing the matrix.

Who's the biggest pain in the ass you have to deal with?

I am pained by the way the black community and the environmental community are prisoners to the Democratic Party. This leaves the communities out in the cold whenever the Republican Party wins. The Republican Party now runs the White House, Congress, and the majority of governorships and state legislatures. So the biggest pains I deal with are close-minded people who are afraid to wander off the plantation. My fellow blacks and greens: Free your minds and your butts will follow.

Who's nicer than you would expect?

The Nature Conservancy. I say this because they completed our Diversity Survey knowing that they would not do well. It was still a sign of respect for what we are trying to do. Most of the other large groups ignore us. It is arrogant. It is racist. It is an indicator of how they feel about the black community and individual blacks. AAEA looks forward to working with The Nature Conservancy on cooperative projects.

Where were you born? Where do you live now?

I was born in Thomasville, N.C. I now live in Fort Washington, Md. I was born in the segregated South. My mother's parents were tenant farmers in eastern North Carolina. Thomasville is mid-state, and my parents lived at home with my paternal grandmother when I was born. My parents dropped out of A&T State University when I was born. My father later went back and got his degree (and more degrees later). They then moved to Greensboro, N.C., where I spent the early part of my life.

What has been the worst moment in your professional life to date?

When I have personally and professionally crashed and burned and taken time to come back (it has happened twice). Our budgets flatlined in 1994 and again in 1998. Regrouping usually takes about two to three years. Interestingly, these worst moments led to me spending more time with my son. So worst moments have led to best moments. The 1991 and 1996 respiratory failures were pretty bad moments too.

What's been the best?

Passing national energy and civil-rights legislation. I helped write and pass the Shared Energy Savings Program of 1986, which was signed by President Reagan. I also assisted in the passage of the NO FEAR Act of 2002, the first civil-rights legislation passed in the 21st century, which was signed by President Bush. The Notification of Federal Employees Anti-Discrimination and Retaliation (NO FEAR) Act holds federal agencies responsible for acts of discrimination by taking monetary judgments out of the offending agency's budget instead of out of the general treasury. The legislation came out of a case where Marsha Coleman-Adebayo successfully sued the U.S. EPA for discrimination and won a $600,000 judgment during the Clinton administration.

What environmental offense has infuriated you the most?

Smog and the lack of political and societal will to prevent it. The average person places the blame for smog somewhere else. It is corporate America, or the utilities, or "traffic," or factories, or pollution from other states or countries. Yet we want all of the amenities of America -- televisions, computers, large cars and trucks, big houses, second homes, and every gadget that man and womankind can think of. Yet nobody wants a power plant, pipeline, or power lines anywhere near him or her. We want power everywhere, but we want to build absolutely nothing, anywhere near anything (BANANA) -- not in my backyard (NIMBY). If we BANANA NIMBY anytime and anywhere, we should not expect electricity and gas all the time and everywhere.

Who is your environmental hero?

Dick Gregory. He was talking about environmental protection and nutrition back in the 1960s. I consider Gregory to be the godfather of the environmental-justice movement too. He was talking justice and environmental protection well before the formal EJ movement started.

Gregory was a founding board member of the African American Environmentalist Association. He also personally helped me when I had asthma trouble in the 1990s. He arranged credit at a health store for me. He would even give me rides home on occasion (albeit in a Rolls Royce), which I greatly appreciated, since I did not have a car in 1991.

Who is your environmental nightmare?

My current nightmare is the "opposition dogma" of the mainstream environmental movement. It appears that this community has adopted a philosophy of opposing everything. OK, traditional environmental groups support clean air, water, and land. But it appears that they oppose all innovative ways to get there and rely on old techniques of opposition politics. I think this is what led to the declaration by Shellenberger, Nordhaus, and Werbach that "Environmentalism Is Dead."

Unfortunately, the air is still polluted and many rivers are still unfishable and unswimmable. And water in urban areas can be dangerous to drink. The low-hanging fruit has been picked. We should be open to trying new ways to get to the high-hanging fruit instead of settling for nothing.

What's your environmental vice?

I do not eat right. I should be trying to "get back to garden," but I am a little lazy in this area. I know we were not designed to eat too much meat. It should only be on special occasions. The Woodstock Nation turned out to be a fat nation.

What are you reading these days?

Christie Todd Whitman It's My Party Too (just finished it). I read five or six newspapers every day. I read National Journal, Energy User News, Pollution Engineering magazine, Business Week, Black Enterprise and Jet magazines and various blog sites. I surf the web. I read the Bible.

What's your favorite meal?

Lobster and bluefish stuffed with crab meat (with a full carafe of white wine).

Which stereotype about environmentalists most fits you?

I am a black conservative environmentalist. None of the stereotypes fit me.

What's your favorite place or ecosystem?

The Chesapeake Bay. When I lived in Annapolis for three years, I loved fishing under the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. I had Black Walnut Creek in my backyard and a beautiful bay view. I became a bird watcher because of the many birds in my backyard.

What's one thing the environmental movement is doing particularly well?

Raising money. The environmental movement is now a $6 billion per year industry. My particular complaint is that virtually none of this money is invested in the black community or in black people via staff. (Yes, there is a black community in virtually every city and town in the U.S.)

The money has made the groups arrogant and has blinded them to any self-reflection. They have the truth, the light, and the way, and they do not need to hear from anybody disagreeing with them. In fact, they will try to discredit you if you disagree on dogma. So the environmental community is good at raising money. Unfortunately, the money has made them lose their souls. Blue-state foundations support their segregation and racism.

(Note to Shellenberger, Nordhaus, and Werbach: They are not dead financially.)

What's one thing the environmental movement is doing badly, and how could they do it better?

Diversity. The environmental movement is either anti-black or ignores the black community. They do not hire black professionals. They cannot retain blacks when they do hire them because of the hostile personnel and policy practices at most of the groups.

They could do better by hiring blacks and considering reviewing some policy positions that would make it easier for blacks to accept operating philosophies. They can open accounts at black-owned banks. They can invest in small minority organizations (not us -- we are not self-promoting here). We are open to cooperative projects.

If you could institute by fiat one environmental reform, what would it be?

I would allow car manufacturers and utilities to expense the manufacture and sale of 20 million fuel-cell-powered electric vehicles per year in the U.S., powered by hydrogen produced from nuclear power plants, wind turbines, hydro, photovoltaics, and ocean-powered electric power plants.

What was your favorite band when you were 18? How about now?

Sly & the Family Stone. My favorite band now is U2. Of course Lenny Kravitz and Prince are not bands. The Rolling Stones are probably the greatest rock 'n' roll band of all time. I was a big Jimi Hendrix fan too.

What's your favorite TV show? Movie?

Entourage on HBO. The Matrix trilogy.

What are you happy about right now?

I am above ground. My son is healthy. My bills are paid (for the most part). I have a functioning car. Most of my computers are working OK. I am encouraged about the opportunities for good environmental legislation.

If you could have every InterActivist reader do one thing, what would it be?

Send Grist a donation.

Black and Green and Read All Over

Where do funds to operate the AAEA come from?    -- Frank Fox, Mechanicsville, Md.

The African American Environmentalist Association is a volunteer organization. I build and run web sites to make a living. I also share a house with my brother and that helps with the monthly bills. I lead a very frugal life. And as I have gotten older, I have found that owning my time is a certain type of wealth. There is nothing more important than time. I feel rich because of the quality time poverty has afforded me to spend with my son. My son is easily pleased; he mostly enjoys time with me. Not that there is anything wrong with those people with $500,000 mortgages and two car payments and a second home; the sacrifice they make is that they do not get to spend quality time with their kids.

We have not accepted any donations or contributions for at least nine years. We have PayPal on our website(s) but have only received $20 from a kind lady in Boston for our support of the Cape Wind energy farm planned for Nantucket Sound. We like to think positive, though, and leave the channel open in case some kind, wealthy person or institution would like to donate a million dollars (hint, hint). However, although poverty is quite liberating for free-thinking policy analysis and positions, it is no fun at bill time.

As I mentioned previously, I turned away from trying to get on the big-time foundation fund-raising treadmill. I do not want to build a huge organization. I had to give up that dream because of severe asthma and being a single parent. Plus, I get much more satisfaction training and spending time with my son. We are reasonably effective as a small volunteer hit team. I can tell by the many attempts of certain people to discredit or eliminate us.

Of course, people who would like to see us dead (or at least nonexistent) try to find anything they can to discredit us. They want to say we are bought by big business. Well where's the beef? I live month to month. I figure that ad hominem attacks show that our policy positions are strong and our tactics effective. They cannot win on the issues so they try to silence the messenger.

How can we elevate the national discourse to reach some level of sophistication on the interaction between the environment and our civilization?    -- Cheryl Bly-Chester, Sacramento, Calif.

We have to get the parties to put America first. The partisanship in Washington, D.C., is so poisonous that you are either blue or red and to hell with everything else. Mainstream environmental groups might as well have a desk over at the Democratic National Committee, and this renders them useless when Republicans are in charge. Unfortunately, with no compromise on the Hill and partisanship in the environmental groups, the result is environmental policy gridlock. No energy bill. No clean air law. No environmental-justice law. No clean water law. No toxic waste law. No global climate change law. In fact, fights over current regulations lead to litigation deadlocks on current law. But let's talk answers.

Environmentalists should join and participate in the Republican Party. There are some independent renegades out there, but the organized, D.C.-based environmental establishment is as in the pocket of the Democratic Party as the black community. This totally eliminates leverage in a Republican-owned town. Leftist Democrat environmentalists are left to wait for a Republican-lite Bill Clinton in the Democratic Party and even then, with an "environmental vice-president," greens, like blacks, are left whining because they are taken for granted.

For instance, I do not understand why mainstream environmental groups did not support the Clear Skies initiative and the Clean Air Mercury Rule. They are based on the very successful Acid Rain Program, which everyone agrees was successful. I suspect that politics are at work. The same goes for the energy bill. There is plenty in there for conservation and renewables, but environmentalists never publicize it. I understand the concern about the imbalance in favor of subsidies for the production side, but let gas lines return or electricity blackouts spread -- Americans are unforgiving about the fundamentals being unavailable. Utilities and gas providers understand this and live in the real world of meeting needed services.

Do you see any big, positive, out-of-the-box ideas the environmental movement should push for?    -- Tommi Makila, Des Moines, Iowa

The environmental movement should put some of its billions into actual services. The groups with tens of millions and hundreds of millions of dollars could team with electric utilities to offer $5,000 plug-in hybrid electric cars that you pay for in your regular utility bill.

Environmentalists could support conversion of highly enriched uranium and plutonium from warheads into fuel to be used in a new generation of nuclear power plants. These new nukes could also produce hydrogen by sticking an electric line in the water used for cooling. This hydrogen fuel could power fuel-cell electric vehicles. The utilities could compete with the big auto manufacturers for market share. Environmentalists could lobby Congress for production-cost tax write-offs for any company producing fuel-cell and plug-in electrics.

It is my hope that some of these areas will provide entrepreneurial opportunities for African Americans and other minorities. More minority moguls would hopefully mean fewer blacks being dependent on government programs.

I'm wondering if you can elaborate on what you mean by "hostile personnel and policy practices" at the mainstream groups. Could you provide some specifics?    -- Sonia Marcus, Athens, Ohio

One interesting thing I found while working with a mainstream group was how most of the white staff, over a six year period, found one way or another to use the term "nigger" to me. There were racial jokes. One staffer had a knack for repeatedly sharing with others when I was present that she did not like chocolate. And this was in a group where I had a great time and flourished and rose to fulfill my potential. Of course, that was due to the vision of Louise Dunlap (founder and president of Environmental Policy Institute/Center -- now Friends of the Earth), who was light years ahead of her time in terms of hiring blacks. Of course, she did not hire you because you were black; she hired you because she thought you could be effective.

As far as policies are concerned, the most hurtful one could be the mainstream environmental movement's willingness to use price as a conservation tool. Mainstream enviros would love to see $5-per-gallon or even $10-per-gallon gasoline prices. This would absolutely destroy the African-American community. Many blacks are barely getting by as it is. Moreover, this would also severely hurt the American economy. Whether you like it or not, the amenities we enjoy in America are based on inexpensive and abundant oil. And please, no lectures on conservation: I directed the Energy Conservation and Transportation Project at EPI/EPC/FOE. I already know all of the arguments. These same people drive in and out of D.C. every day.

What has the AAEA done to encourage African-American students to pursue careers in the environmental field?    -- Bianca Bradford, Cary, N.C.

We placed interns at all of the mainstream environmental organizations for a couple of years. Some of these interns went on to careers as environmental scientists, lawyers, and professionals. We currently provide job and intern listings at environmental groups for those that send us such notices. Again, we are a volunteer organization now, and we prefer to pay the interns for their time, so we do not have a current program with any colleges or universities. The major environmental groups are multi-hundred-million-dollar outfits and should do this on their own. Why aren't the foundations funding such efforts with significant dollars? There are a couple of groups providing interns, but it does not seem to transfer into significant employment for African Americans at mainstream environmental organizations, a point which The Reapers discuss in "The Death of Environmentalism."

Can you talk more about the color line of the environmental movement? Do you have any practical suggestions for ways to bring up racism in these predominantly white organizations?    -- Tracy Basile, Ossining, N.Y.

Tracy, I can only conclude that the groups absolutely do not want African Americans in their ranks. I wish I could be more optimistic, but President Bush and Maryland Governor Bob Ehrlich are much better at hiring and retaining blacks in professional positions than the mainstream environmental organizations. Note: The National Wildlife Federation has appointed Jerome Ringo as their new chair, so maybe there is some hope.

Do you see a way to link environmental justice and access to stable energy prices with the issues of energy efficiency and renewables as well as distributed generation? And if so, what are the steps "we" in industry need to take?    -- Scott Sklar, Washington, D.C.

(Disclosure: I have known Scott for about 25 years.)

What a great question. I agree with you that distributed renewable-energy systems can provide significant "supplemental" energy, but they are impractical for large-scale projects. Imagine trying to provide electricity for Manhattan -- windmills would have to cover the entire island. Photovoltaics would also take up huge acreage to provide power for millions of people.

Environmental groups agree with me, but for other reasons. I am all for wind power and photovoltaics, but environmentalists oppose these projects because they kill birds, threaten open spaces, and "hurt" scenic views. What is a utility to do when most people do not care where their electricity comes from as long as when they flip that switch, the lights and appliances turn on? I have great respect for the utility industry because they meet these needs 24-7.

I love the concept of distributed generation. But as you know, Scott, we need an intelligent grid for distributed electricity generation. The grid has to be capable of talking back to the generators and controllers. Systems that go on and off, such as wind and solar, are a bit problematic for system controllers. I love photovoltaics and toured the solar breeder plant in Frederick, Md., about 23 years ago. (I think BP Solar owns it now, although it was Solarex back then.) Unfortunately, the sun shines about 35 percent of the time, and on windless nights, solar and wind would not provide any electrons to the grid. There would always have to be back-up power from traditional sources. Americans demand 24-7 service.

The most effective way to provide this for millions and millions of people is with large central systems. If there were better ways, the utility industry would use them. They have no irrational opposition to innovative ways to serve their customers. Most environmentalists seem to think that they are evil polluters looking to make money the irrational way. If solar and wind could meet their needs, they would use it. Unfortunately, if environmentalists get to their K-Street offices and can't turn on their computers because there is no electricity, they will be the first ones on the telephone to the public-service commission

Why are people of color not more involved in "green" conservation issues, such as wilderness/wildlands/endangered species (as contrasted to the urban-related environmental issues)?    -- Vance Martin, Ojai, Calif.

There are blacks involved. They work for federal government agencies. Iantha Gantt-Wright at the National Parks Conservation Association is great on this issue.

Blacks love nature. But you have to understand that we have not been allowed to freely participate in American capitalism. We did not get millions of acres of free land and the resources that come with them. So before you ask us to conserve, allow us to consume. You are putting the cart before the horse. Most deep ecologists and mainstream environmental groups just do not want to hear it. Conserve and protect, or hit the highway. There is no empathy for our history and current needs.

So blacks have formed, are forming, and will form their own groups to address these issues from our perspective. It is one of the reasons I founded the AAEA. We cannot wait for other groups to come around. I do not think they ever will. But again, just when I get really cynical, the National Wildlife Federation goes and appoints a black as its chair. Go figure. Never ever thought it would happen. The question is: Will they allow him to make a difference on issues that matter to African Americans?

Do you think enviros could do a better job of reaching blacks and others if we brought our messages down to day-to-day issues?    -- Ginger Wireman, Richland, Wash.

You are right. The Reapers have clearly described how the mainstream groups have no clue as to how to reach out to the average (red state) person or African Americans. They do not put global warming and climate change in a form that is palatable to black communities. They usually find a toxic waste site or some other mutually agreeable project and "visit" a black community and put the pictures in their newsletters. The Democratic Party does the same thing every four years. They do not commit serious resources (M-O-N-E-Y) to any aspect of the black community. Most mainstream enviros do not seem to acknowledge that there is a black community in virtually every city in America. But why should they? The foundations give them plenty of money without engaging the Negro.

Hopefully, the review process under way via The Reapers will include some practical solutions for their problems with the black community. It is easy to solve this problem. They should just call President George W. Bush and Maryland Governor Robert Ehrlich and ask them how it is done. I am sure the answer will be: You just do it.

Are you suggesting that we be more open to the conservative agenda on the environment?    -- Jerry Broadbent, Bucoda, Wash.

Yes. I am suggesting that more greens and blacks become Republicans. It is a political practicality. I am also suggesting that more greens should become conservatives. Conservative greens would have more in common with evangelical Christians and the two forces working together would be formidable.

As far as policy is concerned, I will ask you what did President Clinton do for the environment that President Bush has not done? What did Vice President Al Gore do for the environment? Did he address environmental issues in his presidential campaign? Did John Kerry? Greens, like blacks, should stop being mistresses escorted out the back door by night and should insist on being marriage partners clearly recognized and embraced in the daylight. It is a two-party system, not a one-party system.

The current administration, like the previous administration, is balancing the needs of the American way of life with the environmental protections needed for sustainability.

Your organization supports nuclear power as an antidote to fossil fuels. How do you plan to cope with the transportation and storage of large amounts of nuclear waste and the debris from the decommissioning of current aging nuclear power facilities?    -- Frank Fox, Mechanicsville, Md.

Yucca Mountain. I am the co-chair of the Nuclear Fuels Reprocessing Coalition. We want to reprocess the spent fuel. We also want to use the highly enriched uranium and plutonium from nuclear warheads as fuel in new nuclear power plants. If we recycle spent fuel at Yucca, it can be used over and over again. I see such reprocessing as making nuclear power a renewable resource. It should be included in state renewables portfolios. It should receive allowances for avoiding carbon dioxide, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, particulates, and mercury.

Are the profiteers of power generation in this country friends of people of color merely because they are the enemies of environmentalists who have not interacted properly with people of color?    -- David Hahn-Baker, Buffalo, N.Y.

Great question, Dave. First, let me say that David Hahn-Baker was one of AAEA's founding board members in 1985. David Hahn-Baker and I were the only two black professionals working for mainstream environmental groups in Washington, D.C., in 1981. He is also one of my oldest friends. He has this bad habit of asking the hard questions. His wife Holly had a successful double lung transplant several years ago. She is my inspiration.

AAEA does not base its position on nuclear power on the environmental movement's lack of diversity. However, we do pay attention when the Urban League gives a nuclear company a diversity award and most mainstream environmental groups will not even acknowledge our Diversity Survey.

We support nuclear power because it is emission free. It produces no emissions that contribute to global warming and smog. It emits no mercury. It emits no particulates. It is a major plus for asthmatics like me. The waste can be recycled, and world-threatening warhead uranium and plutonium can be utilized in nuclear power plants.

I got tired of waiting for the big meltdown. It has been 26 years since Three Mile Island.

Why does your group not promote vegetarianism, since the meat and dairy industry is one of the largest polluters (and users of fresh water)?    -- Christopher Jones, Boulder, Colo.

We promote organic farming. I stated that we should work to get "back to the garden." My meat practices are biblically based though. It allows eating meat -- Jesus served fish. I do believe that meat should be consumed mostly on special occasions because that is how it was generally used in the Bible. I am a weak human being prone to sin. I drink too much beer too.

What inspired you to become an environmentalist?    -- Bianca Bradford, Cary, N.C.

I was too small to play football. I was too short to play basketball. I couldn't sing. I couldn't dance very well. I'm not very smart. What's left: environmentalist -- perfectly qualified.

Seriously, I stumbled into the environmental movement six months after the Three Mile Island nuclear accident. I wanted to work on the Hill and saw an ad in the newspaper to work at an environmental group that was located two blocks from Capitol Hill. Once I started working there, I saw the width and depth of the issues and fell in love. Here I am 26 years later.

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