Nader haters 9

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1. 

   gormanme Posted 9:39 pm
   20 Oct 2004

   Nader HatersI was recently in Colorado and saw what I thought was a cogent bumper sticker: "I Think Therefore I Vote for Nader."  I'm tired every four years of having to turn off my brain and choose the lesser of two evils: Tweedle Dumb or Tweedle Dumber.  Unfortunately, the Seattle Naderites gave the meaning behind that bumper sticker a black eye.  However, there are knee jerkers in every group, and I will still voice my opinion on November 2 that I'm sick of the mediocre oatmeal we get with the choices that the Democrats and Republicans give us.

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2. 

   David Roberts Posted 7:33 am
   21 Oct 2004

   You "think"?When in life is the perfect choice ever on offer?  And really, you think bumper stickers like that do anything to counter the image of Nader supporters as insufferable, self-absorbed, moral narcissists?  How about I turn over the mic to Noam Chomsky:These may not look like huge differences, but they translate into quite big effects for the lives of people. Anyone who says "I don't care if Bush gets elected" is basically telling poor and working people in the country, "I don't care if your lives are destroyed. I don't care whether you are going to have a little money to help your disabled mother. I just don't care, because from my elevated point of view I don't see much difference between them." That's a way of saying, "Pay no attention to me, because I don't care about you." Apart from its being wrong, it's a recipe for disaster if you're hoping to ever develop a popular movement and a political alternative.
   
   www.grist.org

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3. 

   da silva Posted 7:50 am
   21 Oct 2004

   oh blah dee oh blah dahYou know things are serious when Chomsky gets real... For my part, I think Nader's political run has become a bad joke carried to extremes, and yet ... there's no denying that we need something to shake up the 2-party system -- another bad joke carried to extremes. The thing is, both parties pander endlessly to this mysterious ideal they call the 'American People,' when the fact remains that the real life American People prove themselves over and over again to be, let's face it, stupid and short-sighted. All those 'poor and working' people (is poverty ennobling? do rich people not work?) for whom Chomsky's heart bleeds? I guarantee you a big chunk of them vote for Bush. Way more than have ever heard of Mr. Chomsky.

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4. 

   David Roberts Posted 8:05 am
   21 Oct 2004

   PerhapsThat may all be true, da silva, but the larger point stands:  Bush remaining in power means real pain and misery for real people.  I realize that lefties, by constitution, are inclined to be enamored of abstractions like "sending a message" and "shaking things up," but I prefer my pragmatism straight, no mixer. To me, when the pain of real people is up against voting in a pure and righteous way, the real people win.  After all, the people in most danger are the very people that the left claims to represent.  (Where, incidentally, is Nader's support from women's rights groups, or minority groups, or unions, or environmental groups?)
   I certainly agree that our political system could use some reform.  But it's just a fact that peeling off a small-but-significant block of the left ensures, like virtually nothing else could, an enduring lock on power by the right.  Voting reform would be great; reducing the need for money in political races would be great; increasing the independence of the media would be great -- let's work toward all those things.  But voting for Nader makes no progress toward those goals.  None.  It is to those goals what masturbation is to sex -- it feels good while you're doing it, but you make a mess and leave nothing enduring behind.
   
   www.grist.org

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5. 

   da silva Posted 8:27 am
   21 Oct 2004

   just to be clearI agree that a vote for Nader is a waste. As I said, I think his whole run has been a bad joke. This notion of his that there's no difference between parties is bunk. His notion that things will get so bad under Bush that the people will rise up and demand change is likewise bunk.
   Now, on to some other points: The fact that Nader gets no support from the groups you mention means only one thing: He can't win and they know it. Nobody backs a loser.
   But, again, to be clear, even if Nader could win, I wouldn't vote for him. That is, I don't see that as a 'pure and righteous' vote.
   My main point, I guess, is that I'm somehow not as disturbed by the Nader voters as I am with all those people who will vote for Bush despite the fact that it goes against their own best interest.
   Lastly, your sex/masturbation comparison/metaphor: Um, even when you have sex with a partner, you often 'make a mess and leave nothing enduring behind.' Unless you call that twinkle in their eye as they clean up, 'enduring.'

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6. 

   Lisa Hymas Posted 8:48 am
   21 Oct 2004

   leaving nothing behindHave to side with da silva on his final comment here.  As an enviro, I take great pains to leave nothing enduring behind!  

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7. 

   gormanme Posted 12:08 am
   22 Oct 2004

   The inability to governIf anyone thinks that the nominee of either party in the current scheme of things can effectively govern, work against the impact of corporate money, buck the system and make meaningful change (whether its relating to the poor, rampant militarization or the environment), they're deluding themselves.  The only real change works from the bottom up, at the grassroots level.  The only way to energize that grassroots constituency is to smack them in the face and get them off their couches-away from their televisions.  Kerry won't do that.  In the end, he will have to compromise with a split congress to get anything through, and none of it will be meaningful.  In the long term, maybe it will be better to have a puppet like Bush in power, attempting to clear-cut the nation and smog the skies.  Maybe his blatant, empty-minded, stumbling ineptitude will get people off their butts and working for real change.

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8. 

   da silva Posted 3:18 am
   22 Oct 2004

   come off itBy that reasoning, Hitler was a good thing for Europe because he spawned the French Resistance. I share your frustration but the logic just doesn't cut it.

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9. 

   Lisa Hymas Posted 3:58 am
   22 Oct 2004

   stupidityAs anti-Nader activist Jerry Rubin put it, "Stupidity is not a progressive value."  

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