Hydro-power
Fleet of hydrogen concept vehicles crosses U.S. as part of Hydrogen Road Tour 28
-
Posted 7:07 PM on 15 Aug 2008
by Sara Barz -
Posted in
-
Read More About
Sara Barz is a writer based in Seattle.
Related Stories
Add a Comment
You are not logged in. Thus, you cannot post a comment. If you have an account, log in. If you don't have an account, well, by all means go make one! Meet you back here in five.
Comments
View as Threaded
amazingdrx Posted 3:45 pm
15 Aug 2008
Cheney thugs in the regulating agencies would use every rotten trick to scuttle them.
But here is a whole tour of delay and diversion hype, cars costing 100s of millions to develop with no practicallity at all. All that money wasted to keep plugin hybrids from being mass produced.
This is truly obscene. And the comments from the "experts" are pathetic.
Good article exposing it all though Sara, thanks.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
Permalink
Delay And Deny Posted 3:30 am
16 Aug 2008
Nice to see Grist Ecologists are changing their H28in ways and manning up for the hydrogen economy.
This road trip also shows states under the control of backward liberals such as Cantwell/Murray who have yet to take any steps towards participating in the 21st century hydrogen infrastructure.
http://hydrogen.gov/
Remember:
Hydrogen cars can also use gasoline.
Hydrogen cars can use ICEs or fuel cells.
Hydrogen cars can run with only one engine.
Regular cars and SUVs can be converted to Hydrogen (not all, actually later models with more ECMs may be more difficult).
The Volt with have three models...including an all hydrogen model with a fuel cell.
We are making rapid breakthroughs to create hydrogen from water with high efficiency. The argument of cost and backend pollution is not valid.
The government recently opened up for bids for solid storage of hydrogen. There have been advances in using magneseum oxides and other.
Hydrogen cars, liter for liter, are 3 times more efficient than gas cars.
Permalink
Tasermons Partner Posted 3:46 am
16 Aug 2008
While this true, it is much easier and much less expensive to aquire hydrogen from fossil fuels.
Gee, I wonder which one they'll choose? ^rolls eyes^
Permalink
Delay And Deny Posted 4:02 am
16 Aug 2008
While this true, it is much easier and much less expensive to aquire hydrogen from fossil fuels.
I don't see how given the 100% efficiency of hydrolysis using the Nocera method.
http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=209900 ...
A liquid catalyst was added to water before electrolysis to achieve what the researchers claim is almost 100-percent efficiency. When combined with photovoltaic cells to store energy chemically, the resulting solar energy systems could generate electricity around the clock, the MIT team said.
And if it is possible to get lots of hydrogen from oil, and do it without producing CO2, then isn't that still a good thing? I mean, oil, per se, is not a bad thing -- it's the fact that we take this rich complicated molecule and...burn it! To me, this is like using a library for firewood...but that doesn't mean we can take the abiotic and super plentiful oil and use it in a more efficient way like stripping out the H2 and using those in fuel cells.
Permalink
Biodiversivist Posted 5:37 am
16 Aug 2008
Anyone interested in how much energy and effort it takes to cool gaseous hydrogen to -423 deg F, which is what you have to do to turn it into a liquid, should read "Absolute Zero and the Conquest of Cold." Absolute zero, the coldest possible temperature in this universe, is -460 degrees.
http://i.n.com.com/i/ne/p/2007/solarhouse2_550x413.jpg
The above picture is a tank farm in an engineer's back yard. He filled them with gaseous hydrogen using a hydrogen generator powered by his solar panels. Using this new catalyst bailo mentions would only reduce the energy lost during electrolysis.
They hold the equivalent of a single tank of liquid propane the size of a home hot water tank. Think about it. It would bankrupt him to try to turn it into liquid form and even in liquid form it takes four times as much space as gasoline to store the same amount of energy. What we need are renewable energy sources. Hydrogen is not an energy source. It is a battery. When combined with a tank it is an energy storage device. The energy source was solar. If we have any extra solar energy to spare it will go to displacing coal in power plants, not into gas tanks for twelve cylinder luxury cars. There may be potential to use hydrogen to store excess solar at a solar power plant, which can be burned in a turbine at night but liquifying it and moving it to distribution points for use in cars makes little if any sense.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
Permalink
Tasermons Partner Posted 5:38 am
16 Aug 2008
Seperation of hydrogen from oil still creates CO2.
Plus, there's still the pollution from drilling and processing.
And the fact that as a non-renewable resource, it will still run out eventually.
The Nocera method has also yet to be proven at a large scale over long distances in regular driving conditions.
And it's still very expensive, unfortunately.
Then there's also the fact that even if water were used for the process, it would take billions of gallons annually for just the United States alone. The water would have to be fresh and also fairly clean (requiring energy-intensive filtration).
And fresh water isn't nearly as abundant as it used to be, so just how are we gonna sustain that amount of consumption?
Permalink
Jon Rynn Posted 6:22 am
16 Aug 2008
BioD, do you know if those tanks are very expensive due to the leakage problem? And I hope he's not in a fire prone area, if there was one those tanks would take out the neighborhood.
Permalink
GRLCowan Posted 8:01 am
16 Aug 2008
He filled them with gaseous hydrogen using a hydrogen generator powered by his solar panels ...
Last I heard, the solar panels were expected to make up for depletion of the initial load, which was due to Praxair or some such entity.
--- G.R.L. Cowan, H2 energy fan 'til ~1996
Permalink
Biodiversivist Posted 8:38 am
16 Aug 2008
I don't really know Jon, but I doubt if those tanks are any more dangerous than a liquid propane tank. Safety is one thing but the main issue with using hydrogen for cars is the horrific energy balance (once you liquefy and transport it) and usurpation of sources of electricity to make it.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
Permalink
Sam Wells Posted 12:54 pm
16 Aug 2008
Every summer engineering kids get to build robotic vehicles, like for a Baja course, and yes we now have a hydrogen "fun run." So what? We know about energy density and upstream energy leakage and things like that. Let 'em have their fun, the PR fade away, and see what the market has to bear.
Onward through the fog
Permalink
amazingdrx Posted 3:18 pm
16 Aug 2008
Gotta hand it to Sara and the other Gristers who keep hammering on the mass media, count the articles from the staff and regular contributors on this topic of media acceptance of industry deception.
It's the only place I know where this is the norm and not the exception. This makes Grist the best internet street corner for those of us frustrated by it to speak up.
What's the name of that street corner in London where they have been ranting for centuries?
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
Permalink
Delay And Deny Posted 3:19 pm
16 Aug 2008
Solar hydrogen home Michael Strizki
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEdQRVQtffw
Permalink
Delay And Deny Posted 3:24 pm
16 Aug 2008
Those tanks are cool, but I don't think they'd fit in a Honda FCX Clarity, the hydrogen-only powered car that is being leased in california. We're talking something more like:
<img src="http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/storage/images/quantum_storage_tank.jpg">
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/storage/ ...
Permalink
amazingdrx Posted 3:27 pm
16 Aug 2008
There it is.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
Permalink
Delay And Deny Posted 3:27 pm
16 Aug 2008
A lot of the Grist Ecologists make sweeping statements about hydrogen, without bothering to research the state of the art in gaseous technology.
I invite you to "increase your H2IQ":
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/educatio ...
Permalink
Pangolin Posted 5:28 pm
16 Aug 2008
There are better alternative energy storage systems available now from compressed air to flywheels to lithium-phosphate batteries. All of them are in use somewhere as installed solutions at market prices.
Hydrogen just can't compete. It's propaganda used to distract from real solutions just like calls for "research" by politicians.
Put the Carbon Back
Permalink
amazingdrx Posted 5:39 pm
16 Aug 2008
"Hydrogen as a majical energy solution is about to go down like this infamous airship."
Your connection with reality may be in "Jeapordy" JB.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
Permalink
Jon Rynn Posted 1:33 am
17 Aug 2008
Permalink
amazingdrx Posted 2:23 am
17 Aug 2008
Down in the south where volatile weather has created heating demand, the ground temperature is warm enough to heat directly. In northern areas the ground temperature is still high enough to reduce haeting load to rqual the value of waste heat inside the building.
Direct cooling is feasible everywhere except the southernmost areas of the US. In those areas heat envelope cooling can reduce heat pump cooling load to a small fraction of energy use.
It's a good warning though, being mentiond in conjunction with Bailo twice now in 2 days, yikes!
It's vacation season though, low internet traffic creates anomalies. At least I hope that's it. Hehey.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
Permalink
GreyFlcn Posted 2:25 am
17 Aug 2008
Does he really believe what he's saying
Is he just some paid off astroturfer
Or does he just enjoy annoying people
-David Ahlport
Permalink
amazingdrx Posted 2:57 am
17 Aug 2008
It's not a lie, if you yourself actually believe it. Many actually believe environmental activism is a liberal conspiracy, devoid of any underlying reality.
Who would pay him for the worthless cr.. hmmm, on the other hand, "drug" limbaugh himself is wealthy enough to get actual (normal?) women to date him.
3 Yep. You got it.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
Permalink
Delay And Deny Posted 3:44 am
17 Aug 2008
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage9093.html
China has developed its first hydrogen-powered fuel cell mopeds and began exporting to overseas markets, a pioneering step to compete on the new and niche market.
Shanghai Pearl Hydrogen Power Resource Technology Co Ltd said it has exported 30 fuel cell mopeds to since May this year, according to Steve Shi, its marketing director. This included 20 units to Spain through a local partner that served the World Expo in Spain this year. Others were shipped to United States and Britain.
Permalink
Tasermons Partner Posted 3:57 am
17 Aug 2008
Wanna guess at the difference?
And since only 30 of 'em were sold, I'm guessin' that even for mopeds they're too expensive to be viable.
Permalink
trock Posted 10:03 am
17 Aug 2008
Does a Hydrogen Economy make sense?
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E21.pdf
Look at the graphic which explains it all.
The word about Hydrogen takes along time to get out. Or is it that the system of vetting ideas is not very good? Or do people just not look at things skeptically enough?
Permalink
Delay And Deny Posted 11:53 am
17 Aug 2008
That report was in 2006.
The breakthrough in electrolysis was in 2008...July 2008.
In hydrogen technology years, the difference between 2006 and 2008 is like the difference between the 21st century and the 18th.
You can't put in a link to a two year old report that has zero knowledge of the Nocera process and expect people to take your seriously....
Permalink
Tasermons Partner Posted 4:27 pm
17 Aug 2008
Two years later?
After the first shipment?
Permalink
H2andYou Posted 8:10 am
19 Aug 2008
Instead of seeking a single solution, a portfolio of energy choices will emerge in different ways all over the world. In some areas solar might make more sense, in others, wind or hydropower, and nuclear or coal might be used elsewhere - and all of these sources can be used to create hydrogen. Incorporating hydrogen within the world's energy portfolio will simultaneously reduce dependence on oil, while improving the country's carbon footprint by reducing greenhouse gases released into the atmosphere.
In the past several months, the industry has made several advancements. Here are few stories that highlight the progress made:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/06/3m-fuel-cell-me.h ...
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/06/toyota-fuel-cell- ...
http://www.smartpower.org/blog/?p=422
Over the last several decades, we have witnessed different kinds of technologies evolve and impact our lives in ways we couldn't have completely imagined. Everything from cell phones to computers to televisions have evolved and improved in speed, reception, size and capabilities. This advancement in technology became possible through research. The same is true for hydrogen technologies today. Researchers will continue to explore, improve and diversify how hydrogen can impact our lives.
To learn more about the benefits of hydrogen, we invite everyone to please visit and ask us questions at www.h2andyou.org.
Permalink
Biodiversivist Posted 1:04 pm
19 Aug 2008
Research is good. Product promotion, less so. The National Steel, Hydrogen, Orange Growers, etc, etc, Association just helping to educate the public on all the benefits of [insert product here].
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
Permalink