I have received hundreds of emails from people wanting to build a hybrid electric bike. I have a standard response that attempts to dissuade them, which seems to work pretty well: You will have to spend about $1,400 on parts, excluding the bicycle. When it breaks -- and it will break -- you will be on your own to fix it. If you are not a reasonably fit cyclist and expect this bike to perform like a scooter, you are going to be disappointed.
This generally takes care of the technically challenged chain smokers looking for a cheap scooter. I don't hear back from most, other than maybe a thank you note. If you have to ask for help, you probably shouldn't be building one.
I designed a battery holder for my bike that I can mass-produce in my shop and keep a small inventory on hand. If someone can convince me that they know what they are doing and just want a battery holder and parts list, I'll sell them both via PayPal. This isn't a business that I want to expand. I make these holders for the fun of it. It's a hobby, like building birdhouses. As soon as a competitor shows up on the internet (and one may be there already), I'm out of the business. One guy who convinced me to sell him one blew a fuse in a battery a few weeks later and broke rule No. 1 when he came back to me for advice. Turns out that he didn't know how to use a voltmeter, which means that he probably didn't own one.
A potential investor interested in producing these bikes also approached me not too long ago. Rightly or wrongly, I think I managed to talk him out of the idea as well.
First, there are the liability issues. Any company producing a vehicle that puts flesh-and-blood customers in close proximity to half-crazed commuters trapped inside armored tanks has to be large enough to survive lawsuits.
The company would also need to be large enough to deal with repair issues, the way power tool, computer, and car retailers do. A competitor making the same bike in China would crush a manufacturer in the U.S. In short, the company would need to be large enough to open up factories in China. The existing electric bike manufacturers tend to fit that profile. They could sell a lot more bikes if they performed like mine.
Finally, this company would have to change government regulations. I imagine this is much easier said than done. Today, electric bikes (legal ones) must be mechanically limited to 750 watts and 20 mph. Imagine cars being limited to a 100 horsepower engine and a device that turns the engine off if you exceed the speed limit. Electric bikes are also banned from most bike trails. Government just doesn't take biking infrastructure seriously. Saving the planet isn't going to be easy.
I have built a few of these bikes for people I know, or officially, they built them with my assistance. The above picture is one of them. Building a bike now and then with someone while drinking beers is fun -- building them for a living would be something else altogether. Interestingly enough, one guy took off with it before I could brief him on its operation and managed to disable it three times in a few days.
First he blew the fuse leading to the battery. I had deliberately installed an undersized one so he would learn to use the throttle carefully. Next, he didn't realize that if discharged too far, the Dewalt charger would reject a pack as being damaged. When the charger rejected one, he rode around with just two packs instead of four, which doubled the current drain on them, thus blowing the 15-amp fuse in another. I managed to repair that battery easily enough, but he had to replace the other one when I determined that a repair wasn't feasible. I feel like the repairman in my favorite movie, Brazil, who rappels into high-rise apartments to fix broken appliances. Not being licensed to do so, he is labeled as a terrorist and pursued by teams of heavily armed police.
I was riding along yesterday when I noticed a gaggle of teenage boys on a street corner. I thought I'd give them a thrill and goosed it while hugging the curb. I could hear the Doppler effect on their hoots and hollers as I crested the hill. Just planting a meme. Anyone interested in joining me in a Critical Mass ride can drop me a line at the email address listed with my profile.
Climate Riders use pedal power to raise awareness
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Comments
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Russ Posted 6:27 pm
30 May 2008
Is it that you turn on the motor when desired, and when it's on, pedal power is a supplement to it? For example, on a long flat surface you wouldn't be pedalling, while on an incline you would?
This would certainly be an excellent replacement for cars if they could be mass-produced to be reliable and maintainable by people who aren't gearheads.
For now, how much education would someone need to be able to put together and maintain one of these things?
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Asa Posted 11:38 pm
30 May 2008
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amazingdrx Posted 12:16 am
31 May 2008
I know the liability and implied warranty problems would never go away unless one merely provides information to other do-it-yourselfers, rather than some kind of product. Anyway, you are a pioneering hero to many, a tough burden to bear.
Corporations that manufacture in China, cutting the 1400 dollar cost to under 1000 with mass production, will get out of lawsuits by simply ignoring complaints then eventually switching corporate shells.
I think a good DVD/internet download on the whole design, discouraging and warning others not to try it, would be as far as one could go, without legal and moral difficulties. Just as you are warning in this article.
On the bright side, how many better, faster bikes like yours need to be seen on the net and in real reality to impell corporations to take on mass production? Your project alone has moved public consciousness along nicely.
I kind of polled the electric bike manufacturers at the Midwest Renewable Energy Fair last summer about your project. The do-it-yourselfer who had invented an electric wheel for the front of the bike that merely snapped onto the bike via quick release had seen your design on the net.
The official corporate electric bike manufacturers had not.
I have noticed lately that when a conversation turns to high gas prices it seems to lead inevitably to talk of hybrid conversion of front wheel drive cars by plugin electrifying the rear wheels. Usually the reply is "Where can I get this done, I want my car converted?!"
I point out that electric "gas" costs 66 cents per gallon equivalent in miles traveled. Then I have to tell them that the batteries to do this are coming onto the market very soon, although a gallon of gas equivalent in the batteries would weigh over 300 pounds. But the really high tech batteries, half that weight, are just not available to the public.
The Wright brothers were not noticed in mass media as having actually flown until 4 years after they did it. The New York Times wouldn't believe them. Now with youtube mass media is bypassed. Seeing (the video) is believing.
The story of Wright flight is interesting to compare to this modern wave of innovation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_Brothers
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog
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Alison Wiley Posted 12:23 am
31 May 2008
Alison Wiley
Portland, Oregon
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amazingdrx Posted 12:36 am
31 May 2008
"While up in the air there is but very little to injure or to put any great strain on any part of the machinery. If you run into a tree or a house, of course, there would be a smash-up. No drinking man should ever be allowed to undertake to run a flying-machine." -- Amos I. Root[74]
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog
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racc Posted 2:12 am
31 May 2008
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:53 am
31 May 2008
Coincidentally, just before he arrived I realized my rear tire was flat. I put the bike on a stand and had it repaired before he showed up. Ten years from now there won't be many original parts left on this bike, as has been true on every bike I've owned.
He asked the same question as you. I told him that bike repair classes are available and there are sites on the internet that teach bike repair also. There are also forums for electric vehicles. But ultimately, you just have to get your hands dirty and learn by experience. I think I talked him out of building his own and suggested that he visit the local electric bike vendor to test ride some of their products. A lot of people are quite satisfied with them and they will repair the ones they sell.
He also brought a few pages off the internet from a vendor that sells electric bike kits. I pointed out that the kits used lower voltages and that it would take six hours to charge the 40 pounds of lead acid batteries. There was also an option for a very expensive lipo battery (that will explode into a fireball if damaged or shorted). The battery is the weak link in all electric vehicles.
The electrical side of the problem can be handled with a detailed maintenance and repair manual, like for a car or motorcycle. I see no reason why it couldn't also contain a course on basic wiring and electricity. But electricity can be scary. Shorting out one of these packs can weld metal to metal.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Biodiversivist Posted 3:27 am
31 May 2008
A hub motor has no gearing which makes them less effective on hills (although some designs actually do have internal gearing). My bike gets up hills using brute force instead of mechanical advantage, which tends to suck a lot of energy from the battery. But you can also touch the throttle to get the bike rolling while you climb on to it, even going uphill. You can also stop pedaling for a short time while keeping the throttle open. Engineering is the art of compromise.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Anna Haynes Posted 4:23 am
31 May 2008
(an NiMH battery, although UrbanMover now makes lithium batteries for it)
And I do like mine.
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izip Posted 4:33 am
31 May 2008
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Wolverine Posted 4:40 am
31 May 2008
People who care about the Earth and biodiversity should not be promoting needless technologies. Electric bikes might be good transitional vehicles for a small minority of those who've been driving cars, but the idea is to get people off the power grids by using their own muscle power. Batteries create toxic waste, and motors contain parts that require serious environmental destruction in order to obtain them.
This issue clearly separates those who think technology will save the Earth and us from those of us who realize that technology is the problem and that we've got to greatly simplify our lifestyles. What's needed is a move away from the vast majority of technology, not just a move away from the worst of it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, and for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction (karma). Doing good for the Earth means eliminating as many motors as possible, not just changing from those that consume fossil fuels to those that consume electricity.
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Biodiversivist Posted 5:54 am
31 May 2008
izip,
Your link is busted: http://www.izipusa.com/
DrX,
I like the aircraft analogy. Bikes have always reminded me of aircraft, light, delicate, high-maintenance machines.
Wolverine,
What level of technology do you think humanity should return to? Stone tools? Digging sticks? Draft animals pulling wooden plows? Steam engines?
Russ,
I see I didn't answer all of your questions. Electric bikes are heavy. I find that I use the throttle just a bit all of the time just to overcome the weight penalty and will increase it as needed to keep the lactic acid from building up in my leg muscles. Many ebikes use a torque sensor that sends power to the drive train. The harder you pedal the more power it sends. It is an attempt to make the bikes more idiot proof user friendly. The system makes you pedal.
Bike manufacturers learned that if you give Joe Six Pack a throttle to twist, he often twisted it until something smoked and then returned the bike because it not only wouldn't motor his 250 pounds up a hill without pedaling, but also ran out of juice half way up the hill.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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kmp Posted 6:33 am
31 May 2008
If what you envision is a regression to a pre-Industrial America, no electricity, no motor-driven tools or transportation.... it seems very unlikely to happen short of a post-Armageddon scenario (nuclear conflict, climate change-induced devastation, floods, drought, etc.) Since Armageddon scenarios typically go hand-in-hand with >90% of the population dying, I certainly can't wish for it.
Even everyone on electric bikes seems a little out there for this country, but I can envision it happening in a couple of generations, given ever-increasing pressure of the price of gasoline. But how is it that you think even this radical departure from our current norm is not radical enough? Do you envision everyone walking or riding horses, or are you simply advocating non-individual transport?
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Bart Anderson Posted 7:10 am
31 May 2008
About global issues, ditto to what Wolverine said.
On a personal basis, I think a regular bike beats electric bicycles hands-down.
Who needs the hassle of a complicated machine that's prone to malfunction? The older I get, the more I want to simplify my life, not add more gadgets. Every hour spent reading manuals, diddling/adjusting, and searching out repair people - this is an hour wasted.
The average American is overweight, out-of-shape, and chronically depressed. Bikes cure all those ills. Healthy people do not need electric bikes, and thrive on daily aerobic exercise.
One can do most simple bicycle repairs with a minimum of skills and tools. Neighborhood bike shops can fix anything more complicated. Industry could make bikes even easier to maintain and repair, if there were a need to - especially the low-end bikes that are what most people should be using (e.g., steel vs aluminum).
Pleasure. Bicycle riding is one of the finest legal pleasures around. The relaxation and sense of well-being after a ride. The pheromones released by exercise. The pleasure in being fit. The increase in libido. This is something we want to replace?
Wuss-factor. Are we so enfeebled and weak in spirit that we can't locomote ourselves? How our hardy ancestors would have laughed at us!
I'm sure there are some instances where electric bikes would make sense, but in general, why bother?
Bart
Energy Bulletin
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Biodiversivist Posted 7:42 am
31 May 2008
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Wolverine Posted 9:20 am
31 May 2008
I certainly don't expect all humans to immediately give up all technology, though that would be nice, but if you don't try for something, there's no chance of getting it. The process will, unfortunately, have to be gradual because of the way human society is now structured. However, I don't see how advocating electric bikes instead of manual ones furthers any positive environmental goals. Even manual bikes are unnatural; they require at least mining for metal, and possibly also oil for the plastic parts and lubricants, they require roads or at least bike paths, etc. But they at least don't have motors of any kind, which is a significant positive difference between them and cars. Reread Alison's post; we need to get OFF artificial power and onto manual power, not just look for other kinds of artificial power that are also environmentally destructive.
The level of technology to where I'd like to see humans get has not yet been achieved, so it can't be returned to, though it's so far beyond where humans are now that it wouldn't even be considered technology. I really don't know how to explain it, except to say that it involves very little if any physical technology, but much mental and spiritual technology that would be achieved by major evolution of the mind and spirit. Watch a Star Trek episode called "Errand of Mercy" from the original series to get an idea of what I mean. A truly advanced society would barely be noticed. It would certainly NOT fit the medical definition of being a cancerous tumor on the Earth, as human society currently does in the way it affects the planet by both its consumption and its overpopulation.
Neither of you addressed the extreme ecological and environmental harms caused by the technologies you advocate. To hell with humans, they're only one species out of millions! What about the rest of the planet? Let's see, so far humans have caused and/or are causing, the sixth great extinction -- in addition to directly causing the extinction of countless species -- major harm or virtual destruction of almost every ecosystem on Earth, pollution of every inch of land, air, and water, and overpopulation so gross that the other species have nowhere to live properly. This was all caused and/or enabled by technology, beginning with the technology to make weapons and use agriculture, continuing to the present level of the Nazi sciences of genetic engineering and cloning.
So I throw your questions back at you: how do you justify ANY technology when it's all so ecologically and environmentally harmful? Do you think that humans are better or more important than other species? Even if so, doesn't that give humans a responsibility to take care of other species as opposed to destroying them?
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Bart Anderson Posted 12:55 pm
31 May 2008
Good point, bd. As we've learned, framing is everything!
Bart
Energy Bulletin
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amazingdrx Posted 3:46 pm
31 May 2008
But we are still talking a tiny fraction of humanity that will risk biking if they don't have to.
Maybe making biking safer with bike lanes and trails and something like a full body "helmet" would help? For instance, an ultralight lexan/air bag bubble that comes right down over a bike rider providing crash and weather protection like an eggshell.
Put these on recumbant trikes boosted with plugin assist and a signifigant number of people might just use these instead of their cars most days.
It's a compromise as bio-d suggests. A more baby boomer friendly plugin hybrid bike. People wisely get more protective of their safety with age, but foolishly use it as an excuse not to do things like riding a bike and get less fit.
A mass produced compromise might even save health care dollars. A fitter, GHG freer life, yippee!
Of course the young (at heart in my case) and exersize addicted will still take our chances on dangerous contraptions like bio-d has created, hehey. Thanks again for the inspiration buddy!
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog
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secanyon Posted 1:57 am
01 Jun 2008
I agree with you about people needing to understand exactly what they are getting into. I am good at building things, but there were several things that I needed to learn prior to putting mine together.
There are a lot of good choices out there for motors and batteries. The Dewalt route is good, if you have DC electrical skills, but the Lipo batteries, as expensive as they are, will be cheaper than frying the Dewalt batteries.
I disagree with the posts going on about human energy is the only way to go on a bike. I have owned bikes all of my life, and I never rode one as much as I do now. I purchased a used kid trailer, and now use my bike for all grocery shopping, dry cleaning, and just about any other local errand. Prior to building the e-bike, there is no way that I would have done this.
I know that it would be better for the environment and my cardiovascular system if I did not use an electric motor, but I hoping that I can offset some carbon by not using my car as much, as well as save money at the pump. Even though I spared no expense making a quality bike, I know that it will pay for itself in a little over a year.
Bart brings up some very valid points, about the benefits of riding a bike. I think that most of those points are true for me, riding the electric.
As a nation we are lazy. I am. But I think that any effort made to change and adapt should not be discouraged.
I went to a bike shop for a part, while building mine. When the guy found out what I was doing, he told me that the part did not exist, and he could not help me. I found the part within ten minutes on the web. The guy just had an attitude that bikes are just for the purists. I really do not get this.
In any case, thank you biodiversivist. You inspired me to build mine.
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Delay And Deny Posted 2:41 am
01 Jun 2008
I think the electric bike has one really good engineering justification and that is that, like a regular bicycle, it's one of the few transportation mechanisms which weights less than the cargo it transports! Even the most groovy electro-car is still expending the majority of its energy pushing around the car itself and the passengers are basically part of the "waste energy" of the car motorvating up a hill. Even the beautiful retro looking Yamaha C3
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/529/ ...
probably weighs more than the 2 people it could carry.
Yet, for now, I remain totally human powered on my bike and my commute involves climbing Kent East Hill ( rise of 500 ft in 3 miles) on the way back. (I still have my '88 Mazda 626 which I recently found to be capable of delivering in excess if 35 mph on the highway.)
"I'm a scientist; certainty is a big word." -- Anne Heche as Dr. Amy Barnes in Volcano (1997)
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BruceMcF Posted 9:09 am
01 Jun 2008
For example, here in Ohio, an electric bike must be licensed as a moped, with some silly requirements ... but the 20mph limit for a "motor assisted bicycle" does not mean speed limited to 20mph, it means capable of no more than 20mph by motor power alone on level ground.
Faster than that, and its a motorcycle. And while some of the regulations for an electric motor assisted bike are more designed for gas powered mopeds ... if you think about it, there has to be some power level where the thing is just an electric motorcycle and licensed as such. Able to go no faster than 20mph on level ground using the motor alone seems a perfectly reasonable limit to me.
And of course, social networking to provide the shape of the regulatory terrain in each of the states also provides those pushing for legislative reform opportunities to say, "but how can we be more backward than state X?".
From my experience, where I work now, I could continue commuting indefinitely without electric assist ... its just a 15 or 20 minute bike ride. But when I was working at the warehouse 14 miles away, cycle commuting was not something for the moderately close to sane.
Virtually Yours, BruceMcF
Energize America 2020
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CountersTrike Posted 9:42 am
01 Jun 2008
<Maybe making biking safer with something like a full body "helmet" would help? For instance, an ultralight lexan/air bag bubble that comes right down over a bike rider providing crash and weather protection like an eggshell.>
.. which is almost what I have- fiberglass/kevlar/Lexan, hub motor. Unsafe??? Nah... hit sand, black ice, railroad tracks with a 2 wheeler? Maybe that is where the "unsafe" byword comes in. By the way; this fully enclosed skate is called a velomobile/and yes it is old.
<Put these on recumbent trikes boosted with plugin assist and a significant number of people might just use these instead of their cars most days.>
Our county had a program in 2001 offering assist kits at lower prices: so again: this is just what I had -a power-assisted recumbent trike; and still have.
40 extra pounds? Can't get parts/repairs/unsafe/not lasting a long time? {LOL} How ridiculous!
Sure; batteries are unsafe and a waste - but until millions of cars, motorcycles, trucks, scooters, tuk-tuks, etc., invent better storage, I will hang on to my 8 pound lead -acid batteries.
Thanks for the chuckles!!
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amazingdrx Posted 11:23 am
01 Jun 2008
Thanks count.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog
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Biodiversivist Posted 12:11 pm
01 Jun 2008
I've actually never looked into detail at the electric bike regs. Is there a standard test controlling for weight, wind, tire, diameter?
What is the power limit in Ohio? I grew up in Indiana. Hills were few and far between. Here in Seattle, flat spots are. They make a lot more sense here.
I talked to a guy a few minutes ago who was chaining up his electric bike. It was a Bionx kit with a lithium battery. He paid $1800 for the kit which he bolted on his bike. He rides it, not to save the planet, but because he has one too many DWIs. He didn't like the look of the ones offered in the local electric bike store. "Too goofy looking."
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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amazingdrx Posted 2:31 pm
01 Jun 2008
It seems like a vehicle like that could keep up with traffic, except maybe on the freeway (legally they wouldn't be allowed anyway), and even be crash safe with a carbon fiber tub/body frame and lexan bubble top.
Big business may not want to build them, but I'm betting a lot of green bikers will. Kits are the way to go bio-d. It relieves the liability issues.
That's how the do-it-yourself aircraft business works through the Experimental Aircraft Asociation. They kind of brokered a deal with the FAA. Making a way for home builders to comply with safety regs and kit companies to stay in business.
I think it's a 50% build rule of some sort? you can get a lot of the critical parts for your airplane premade in the kit, then you assemble them yourself, or with friends.
This friend thing is good too, it allows experts to help amateurs without breaking the build rules. As with most good things, once the big money takes over the lawsuits that follow take the fun out of it all.
Another cool similarity to home built aircraft, the materials and building techniques cam be transferred to the Velomobile build.
I like this as a hobby, it's just as crazy fun as home built aircraft, but much safer and carbon footprints begin to vanish.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog
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MAD MAC Posted 4:26 am
05 Jun 2008
Victory in Pattani
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