New discoveries point to the presence of more complex forms of brain cells in Humpback whales, which might explain their high levels of intelligence.
Recall: the Japanese are set to begin slaughter of Humpback whales. Many environmentalists suggest it's OK since the whale population is at sustainable numbers. As everyone who reads my pieces knows, I think this is wrong -- we must take the welfare of individual sentient beings into account, and as the science continues to show, many animals are much more advanced than we once thought.
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davidintokyo Posted 9:19 am
27 Nov 2006
Humpback whales are already being slaughtered, and it isn't by "the Japanese".
As always, you might want to refer to "whalers" rather than a specific race of people, some of whom happen to be whalers.
Best!
David
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davidintokyo Posted 9:22 am
27 Nov 2006
By the way Jason, what do you think we should do about humans killing whales through ship strike and entanglement in fishing gear? This is actually a conservation concern, and I wonder where you stand on it.
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Jason D Scorse Posted 9:28 am
27 Nov 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpback_Whale
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Jason D Scorse Posted 9:30 am
27 Nov 2006
J.S.
J.S. teaches environmental economics and blogs at http://www.voicesofreason.info.
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davidintokyo Posted 9:59 am
27 Nov 2006
I do recommend that you look into ship strike, and I'd note that it's not just drift nets that are a problem.
Just a couple of weeks ago USA nationals killed a Humpback whale in a purse seine net while doing some (lethal) fisheries research:
http://www.sitnews.us/1106news/111506/111506_whale.html
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davidintokyo Posted 10:00 am
27 Nov 2006
Jason,
I do recommend that you look into ship strike, and I'd note that it's not just drift nets that are a problem.
Just a couple of weeks ago USA nationals killed a Humpback whale in a purse seine net while doing some (lethal) fisheries research:
http://www.sitnews.us/1106news/111506/111506_whale.html
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davidintokyo Posted 10:01 am
27 Nov 2006
OK, still not working, so here is the rest:
As I understand it this population has been recovering strongly so there is no great concern in terms of conservation, but they drowned that whale - it seems that it took at least 30 minutes to die.
I seem to recall a US cruise ship mowing down a Humpback quite recently as well.
On the other hand, the Northern Right Whale population is one of the most endangered in the world (it's not currently the target of whaling activity and hasn't been for many decades, but hasn't recovered despite protection - it may already be below it's critical depensation level).
IWC scientists are concerned that if anthropogenic mortality rate for this species is not reduced to 0, there is a very true concern that this species will be lost forever within the next 200 years.
Many of the members of this species have been observed with scars that indicate lucky escapes from entanglement / ship strike, and a number of deaths related to these causes have been confirmed in recent times.
Human behaviour is thus resulting in what must be painful deaths for these whales (with nothing at all to do with whaling) and not only that, it's also a conservation issue.
Anyway, you know where my priorities are. I personally see little difference between humans deliberately killing whales versus killing them accidently, but I prefer the former because
a) less pain is likely involved on average for the whale that is killed
b) accidental killing poses a far greater conservation concern
Cheers,
David
"The greatest threats to them now are bycatches in fishing gear, collisions with ships and potential damage to their habitat." -- Greg Donovan, Head of Science at the IWC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5103378.stm
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davidintokyo Posted 10:48 am
27 Nov 2006
"These boats are big enough that they don't even feel a bump"
Scary - how many endangered whales are killed by us without us even realising?
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Jason D Scorse Posted 10:51 am
27 Nov 2006
J.S.
J.S. teaches environmental economics and blogs at http://www.voicesofreason.info.
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TokyoTom Posted 12:38 pm
27 Nov 2006
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davidintokyo Posted 3:58 pm
27 Nov 2006
Indeed, although I apologise to Jason for hijacking his thread. I'll make this my last one on this thread in case people want to discuss Jason's thing about Japan killing humpbacks from next year.
Jason,
I personally wonder what realisitically can be hoped for with regards to the Northern Right Whale. Even if we were suddenly able to plonk 10,000 right whales back into that environment, I imagine that we'd see is a big increase in the number of reported ship strike occurances, more fishing gear entanglement, thus probably negative growth for the population anyway. The authorities have been enacting measures related to both of these threats, but I think more needs to be done to find long-term solutions that would be appropriate for a day when we don't have just a few hundred of these critters swimming around, but potentially thousands of them.
There was an article in the Japanese media recently about research into underwater sound emitting devices being attached to vessels (ship strike reports are up here in Japan), and apparently they observed some success in repelling the whales from the path of the ships.
Since whales are supposed to be smart and intelligent, hopefully one day humans can devise a device to omit "hey, coming through!" signals to the whales that they understand, but I guess we are still quite a way off from that yet.
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davidintokyo Posted 4:01 pm
27 Nov 2006
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caniscandida Posted 12:17 am
28 Nov 2006
To criticize the whaling policies and practices of the Japanese, supported by their government and governmental agencies, does not amount to anti-Japanese racism. Similarly, to criticize the policies and practices of the government of Israel does not amount to anti-Semitism. Accusations of anti-Japanese racism have no place in this discussion.
The article from Alaska, on the unintended catching and apparent drowning of a humpback whale in a purse-seine net, is interesting, but hardly exculpatory. The way the article is written, the fishermen who realized they had caught the whale thought only of the welfare of the whale, and did everything they could to save it. That may be true -- in which case, Bravo! One cheer! It also may be true, however, that they were more frightened of the prospect of bad publicity, when it became public knowledge that they had been responsible for a whale's death, and so did not mind the loss of their fishing gear. If it matters to anyone in the killing business, for ethical reasons, who exactly you are trying to kill, then all uncontrolled nets and all uncontrolled hooked lines are by definition unethical: you are consciously preparing the deaths of countless individuals whose deaths you did not intend.
The complexity of brain cells is an irrelevant observation. Animals deserve to be treated well, not because their brains resemble ours, but because they have interests and sensibilities that we, when we are being appropriately, humanly sensitive, ought to recognize.
Chickens are our cousins!
So are other sensitive animals!
Enough is enough!
No more factory farms!
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willa Posted 8:05 am
28 Nov 2006
Of course, we will cause suffering--it's inevitable--but having in mind the desire to avoid it as far as possible is a great help, whether the subject is whales or worms.
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Jason D Scorse Posted 2:09 pm
28 Nov 2006
J.S.
J.S. teaches environmental economics and blogs at http://www.voicesofreason.info.
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TokyoTom Posted 2:51 pm
28 Nov 2006
You might notice that Mr. M has expressed very much the same sentiment as you regarding suffering in whales.
I agree that accusations of anti-Japanese racism have no place in this discussion. It's just that it seems you introduced them on this thread.
Mr. M points to many areas on common concern that greatly affect whale populations, and much more so than does whaling itself - such as ship strike and fishing - yet you fail to take up the change to explore common interests and concerns. Why? Is making common cause with an enemy less effective than defeating him? Careful lest you fall into the mindless tribal antagonism that the Bush administration has tried so hard to foster and exploit.
Mr. M, er, David: "Since whales are supposed to be smart and intelligent, hopefully one day humans can devise a device to omit "hey, coming through!" signals to the whales that they understand, but I guess we are still quite a way off from that yet."
You have your thinking cap on, but I suspect that making ships noisier in some ways will simply do further damage to the cetacean environment. Perhap some type of rumble that doesn't carry more than a couple of kilometers, but that hardly seems feasible given how sound carries. For the few hundred right whales, maybe a better approach is to attach radio devices to them that can be heard by any ship with existing technology, and to fine all who end up striking whales anyway. That would create incentives for everyone to listen and avoid.
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caniscandida Posted 4:55 pm
28 Nov 2006
In the first response in this thread to Jason's original post, Mr. M objected to Jason's use of the term "Japanese." And he used the word "race." That is perhaps not enough to amount to an implicit charge of racism. But there is a history of his writings to Gristmill, which provides enough of a background to suspect reasonably that that is what he had in mind.
I have no disagreement at all with what you wrote about human nature and sympathy. If Mr. M ever wrote something like that, I do not remember. In fact that item in my message was directed to Jason's original post, not to Mr. M.
Oh yes, I remember now, from a while ago, his argument that it is preferable for a whale to be struck and killed by an explosive-tipped harpoon than to be bitten to death by a pack of orcas. I found this argument quite sophistical and disingenuous (and I think Jason did too): it is very difficult to reconcile his alleged concern for the suffering of whales with his support for whaling and for dolphin-slaughter.
Chickens are our cousins!
So are other sensitive animals!
Enough is enough!
No more factory farms!
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davidintokyo Posted 6:01 pm
28 Nov 2006
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davidintokyo Posted 6:06 pm
28 Nov 2006
For the record, I agree on your third point to the extent that intelligence shouldn't be a factor in our killing selection. You are a no killing kind of guy, I am less strict.
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davidintokyo Posted 6:07 pm
28 Nov 2006
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davidintokyo Posted 6:13 pm
28 Nov 2006
"yet you fail to take up the change to explore common interests and concerns. Why?"
I didn't want to hijack Jason's thread about his humpback intelligence thing. If Jason wants to start a new topic about conservation threats to whales I'll happily participate, if I happen to notice such a thread (Google will probably Alert me).
"You have your thinking cap on, but I suspect that making ships noisier in some ways will simply do further damage to the cetacean environment."
I personally think the option is worth exploring. I can imagine a big difference between industrial noise and noise directed at cetacean conservation.
"For the few hundred right whales, maybe a better approach is to attach radio devices to them"
Tagging of whales currently only allows tracking for up to 3 or so months at a time. It's also very difficult to attach such devices in the first place. Do a search for Nan Hauser's recent efforts in the South Pacific in this area, in collaboration with a Brazilian chap who's name I forget.
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davidintokyo Posted 6:23 pm
28 Nov 2006
"What I dislike is that he seems to mention these matters as a way to minimize the significance of whaling, or to distract attention away from it."
Whaling is insignificant in terms of whale conservation, which is my concern. I understand that whaling is significant to you in terms of your ethical ideas. Please try to understand my perspective.
For the record I have raised the issue of true threats to whales a couple of times recently on my blog, which I am readily able to locate thanks to the new "label" functionality Blogger introduced a few months back:
http://david-in-tokyo.blogspot.com/search/label/threats%2...
My focus is very much on the whaling debate, but like Australian researchers I think the whaling issue needs to be resolved if we are ever to get the general public more focused on true conservation threats. Maybe you disagree with my priorities - you are welcome to if you like, but doubting me isn't particularly constructive I feel.
And finally, please do not make the mistake of misrepresenting my statements. I most certainly do care about animal welfare, and I would like to see killing methods improved. My tolerance / support of dolphin-killing and whale-killing is from a conservation perspective. There is more than one way of looking at the world.
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davidintokyo Posted 6:24 pm
28 Nov 2006
or ethics for that matter.
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davidintokyo Posted 6:27 pm
28 Nov 2006
Here is an article about Nan Hauser's tagging work that I referred to.
"It is a month since Ygor arrived from his own tagging project in Brazil; but in the Cook Islands he has yet to tag a single whale, and time and the weather are not on his side."
"The task is not an easy one."
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TokyoTom Posted 6:07 pm
11 Dec 2006
In that connetion, readers of this thread might note that Congress has agreed to final language in the reauthorization of the Magnuson-Stevens act that mandates the greater use of ITQs, based on mutual support by environmentalists and fishermen.
http://www.env-econ.net/2006/12/welcome_itqs.html
...
http://www.reason.com/news/show/34998.html
We should be pushing for similar solutions on global fisheries that are under severe pressure, and consider why similar programs cannot be introduced for whales.
(David, the Mr. M was a reference to CanisinCanada's labelling you as "Mr. Monotony".)
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TokyoTom Posted 6:07 pm
11 Dec 2006
http://reason.com/news/show/36839.html
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