I've got 12 -- count 'em, 12 -- posts queued to go up today on Gristmill, and that's assuming neither I nor any other contributor writes another word.
Out of those 12, at least five are essay-length and around nine or ten are substantive and interesting, not just toss-offs.
Furthermore, they're all good. There's not a bum one in the bunch. (Of course, about half of them are written by me, so I'm flattering myself here.)
This raises a problem: who can read that much stuff, much less pause to think it over or comment on it? Each post is worthy of discussion, but overall Gristmill has become like a fire hose: a huge stream of information and commentary, more than any person could possibly drink. I noticed just the other day that we've officially crossed the line where I can no longer keep up with everything in the Recent Comments box over on the right. I owe a great debt to those who contribute to this blog, and I hate for them to spend time constructing a great essay only to see it rocket down the page, get buried, and disappear.
Obviously, this is a good problem to have, to be overburdened with good material. But I want to do something about it, to insure that every post gets its due and that the more serious, discussion-provoking posts have time to linger a while. Grist/Gristmill will be undergoing a wholesale redesign soon, which will debut toward the end of the year and address this problem head on.
But until then, I'm open to ideas. Should I try to cut back on material? Make the recent comments box bigger? Pull some posts out to highlight? Concentrate posts during one time of day? Pull stuff out of the archives and cycle it back through?
Share your thoughts or suggestions in comments.
Comments
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bookerly Posted 7:10 pm
28 Jan 2007
There is too much material. There are things I begin to read (and never comment on (smile) because they are new to me!), but have trouble keeping up not only with the original posts, but with all the useful links!! (Which are really helpful, I have learned a lot, but realize that my comments may not always reflect this, since I tend to comment mostly on things I know something about (or think I do)).
Could there be blog categories? Would that help?
A longer recent comments strikes me as nice..
A way to mark and track items (postings) we're interested in?
Anything you can do will be much appreciated!
thanks,
patrick
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gillo Posted 8:43 pm
28 Jan 2007
Of course this needs a bit of trust, losing control, etc. But the benefits (especially the one of building a network) are many. Also, many bloggers need content for their websites and I'm sure they would be glad to post your material.
It could be the start of a Grist community? :)
"There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew."
(Marshall McLuhan)
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Whiskerfish Posted 10:57 pm
28 Jan 2007
I think categories are a good idea, especially when it comes to finding earlier threads (see http://www.monbiot.com for a good example of a filing system that works for me)
Another thought might be for commentors to restrict their follow-up comments to the discussion at hand? threads sometimes run all over the place!
What about restricting each contributor to a max of 3 posts per day? That way they'd have to prioritise... We'd get the better stuff w/out having to wade thru too much.
One thing that frustrates me is that popular threads, that get built on over days, disappear too quickly, supplanted in the page ranking by small stuff that gets hardly any attention at all.
Popular threads that stay on topic should have some way of being parked near the top of the page...
Whiskerfish inarush
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sunflower Posted 11:06 pm
28 Jan 2007
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Kif Scheuer Posted 11:27 pm
28 Jan 2007
Limits on comments: No, too controlling
Outsourcing posts: No, but roundups like recent climate change are great!
Popular threads staying on top: yes and double yes
Lnger recent comments: Sure, but how about a recent comments page where the first few lines are visible and sorted by thread - you could then quickly play catch up (see google homepage which now has drop down boxes for RSS feeds).
combining posts?: What about waiting a bit longer to post new entries and seeing if there are related posts that come in and combining them - ex: bioD and Jason both submit something on fisheries and you add an intro and then combine the two into a larger daily topic. This with categories might really focus some discussions
ratings on relevance to original post?: This is a really half-baked idea, but bear with me. Many times the original post sparks a passionate back and forth that really is quite tangential to the original topic. If you start reading the original topic you end up lost in a debate you're not really interested in, but still looking for the comments that are more on topic. I don't like censoring comments or restricting debate. So, how about if readers could rate post replies for their relevance then you could more quickly scan the comments for one's that are on topic. An alternative would be for GRIST to encourage a little more self-regulation among commentators and a quick and easy method for people to step their off-topic discussion into another thread.
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kmp Posted 11:48 pm
28 Jan 2007
I like the idea of a longer recent comment box - or perhaps a list of say 5 comments at the top that are "busiest" or "most popular" or what-have-you. Ones where clearly a lot of us are following the conversation and commenting, but then these individual comments would not overwhelm the recent comments box.
I don't really agree with tyring to police threads for topic-relatedness or multiple postings... for one thing, it would never work, for another thing, some of our most interesting conversations have been technically off-topic.
Creative ways to keep less-busy threads from disappearing in the deluge would be appreciated.
Keep up the good work!
Kaela
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amazingdrx Posted 12:02 am
29 Jan 2007
I noticed the same thing. Usually I only have time to check the comments and then respond.
But on the weekend I went through all the stuff I missed. Really great articles are getting no comments!
A good reason for you Gristmill writers to repeat yourselves. We won't complain.
And don't feel slighted, any of you writing the entries, if there are no comments on an article it's probably the overload, not the quality of the work.
Except in the case of JS. We just don't like corporatarianism, hehey. (Just kidding JS, "Now go get your shinebox")
Actually controversy often stirs up the most comments. Look at DR's "chewing cardboard" complaint entry. Awesome. We need shaking up out of our enviro echo chamber to get this energy re-evolution going.
Had a local political town meeting with our new congressman here yesterday. A record turnout! The questions and comments reminded me of this blog. You are on the right track. Keep up the GREAT work! Even you JS.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog
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Samuel Fromartz Posted 12:30 am
29 Jan 2007
And, ah, by the way, I was thinking of sending a post today. Should I bother?
Samuel Fromartz
Author
Organic Inc: Natural Foods and How They Grew (Harcourt, 2006)
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David Roberts Posted 1:44 am
29 Jan 2007
Thanks for the suggestions, folks -- I should note that just about everything everybody said is included in the redesign. I'm just trying to figure out what kind of quick-and-dirty things I can do before then. Keep 'em coming.
www.grist.org
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Jason D Scorse Posted 1:54 am
29 Jan 2007
J.S. teaches environmental economics and blogs at http://www.voicesofreason.info.
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:58 am
29 Jan 2007
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Engineer Posted 1:59 am
29 Jan 2007
I belong to other discussion groups where the overall owner/administrator of the site has appointed moderators who assist by occasionally chiming in to bring a thread back on topic, warning those who are getting out of line and even sometimes locking threads to prevent further posts on an overheated topic.
Dave could delegate some of the duties in line with whatever might be adopted from the list of suggestions here, or any other mechanism used to try and get back to merely whelmed, instead of overwhelmed.
Common sense is an oxymoron...
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mihan Posted 2:13 am
29 Jan 2007
I would favor a word or line limit on comments. Edit, people!
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Laurence Aurbach Posted 2:17 am
29 Jan 2007
In terms of presenting new contributions, there are some limitations to the blog format. Each new story takes up a lot of space (relatively) and goes below the fold quickly.
By contrast, a presentation like Energy Bulletin can easily accommodate 12 new posts and keeps them visible for at least 3-4 days.
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Gar Lipow Posted 2:58 am
29 Jan 2007
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sunflower Posted 3:35 am
29 Jan 2007
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Sam Wells Posted 4:20 am
29 Jan 2007
To have too much content is a blessing, not a curse. Heck, I'd like to be a guest poster some day too. The buzz, the churn, the issues, all is premium quality stuff, A+.
The back-track to older threads is a little disappointing, though, not stellar. /sam
Onward through the fog
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Gar Lipow Posted 4:20 am
29 Jan 2007
Similarly, limit the number of categories you could assign to a single post. 3? 5? somewhere in that range.
If you want to limit the number of characters per poster per week that would fine too. And I speak as someone who sometimes writes extremely long posts. There are arguments pro and con. (I suggest if you do limits, you make them character rather than word or number of post limits.)
Longer recent comment box is good.
Another thing would be good if you have the technical person hours to spare. Show only one comment (the most recent) from each post in your recent comments box. But with that one comment, display the number of comments for that post within the last 24 hours. The query to produce that would fairly server intensive, but you could limit it to once every 15 minutes, which might actually save server resources compared to your current system.
Another thought. Right now you tend to let users select how much of their post goes in the intro, how much in the main text - editing it manually of course if you strongly disagree with their choice. You might want to put a hard character limit to the intro section, documenting it in the posting form. That should be a pretty straightforward validation to add.
Oh, offtopic again - in response to Sunflower. There is no such thing as "economics sans ideology".
From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology
>Every society has an ideology that forms the basis of the "public opinion" or common sense, a basis that usually remains invisible to most people within the society. This dominant ideology appears as "neutral", holding to assumptions that are largely unchallenged. Meanwhile, all other ideologies that differ from the dominant ideology are seen as radical, no matter what the content of their actual vision may be.
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wiscidea Posted 4:25 am
29 Jan 2007
Hey... free market capitalists... if you believe a free market can really solve problems, why don't you advocate getting rid of ALL subsidies? The air and water leaving your manufacturing or industrial agricultural facilities should be as clean as when it entered the facility; pass the cost onto the consumers and let market forces decide whether anyone wants your products. If you are pumping petroleum out the ground, leave the area as clean as it was when you started, clean up all spills the happen during distribution, and pay the full cost of defending any operations or shipping lanes in politically unstable regions; pass the cost onto consumers (or reduce you profits from a few billion to a couple billion) and let market forces decide whether we can really afford your products.
Sorry for the rant... sort of ventured into trollish behavior... but I feel a little better now.
So... what exactly is "The JS Doctrine" and how will it save the biosphere?
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sunflower Posted 4:32 am
29 Jan 2007
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David Roberts Posted 4:33 am
29 Jan 2007
www.grist.org
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Gregory Dicum Posted 4:39 am
29 Jan 2007
here's how it's done on craigslist:
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/all/
my books: The Coffee Book | Window Seat
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cieldumort Posted 4:57 am
29 Jan 2007
Reason I am bringing this up is, I don't mind "having" to read through so many entries (and subsequent threads) from contributors - so long as - I do not have to read through comment after comment from trolls.
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Gar Lipow Posted 5:07 am
29 Jan 2007
I think the simpler solution - define troll, and let posters delete troll posts.
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wiscidea Posted 5:19 am
29 Jan 2007
But then a troll might log in and delete EVERYTHING.
Interesting, but how to put it into practice? Too much work for the Grist contributors to be monitoring comments. The standards must be enforced by the entire community.
Forward!
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David Roberts Posted 5:42 am
29 Jan 2007
I actually think this blog has much less of a troll problem than most, mainly because everyone has to register with a verified email address and -- all credit goes to y'all -- when they come around they're generally treated civilly or ignored. When a troll can't get people fired up and pissed off and off topic, they generally get bored and leave. Our comment section is remarkably thoughtful and substantive relative to the vast majority of other blogs. Again: thanks to y'all.
www.grist.org
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wiscidea Posted 5:58 am
29 Jan 2007
There is too much material in this tread for me to sort through right now, so I apologize if someone already made this suggestion...
Perhaps the "recent comment box" should be a list of Gristmill contributor posts that users have recently commented on (the more recent the comment, the closer to the top of the list), rather than a list of users who have recently commented on a contributor post. Does this make sense?
There often seems to be a rapid back-and-forth on a hot topic than can push other discussions, even if only a few hours old, off the bottom of the list.
My suggestion -- or someone elses, since I did not read everything above -- would create a list of the top 20 topics recently commented on, even if number 20 has generated only 1 comment.
I hope someone understands this.
Forward!
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mihan Posted 6:37 am
29 Jan 2007
For example, there could be buttons to sort posts by date posted, date of last comment, or number of comments, according to the reader's preference.
On the "recent comments" line, would it be possible to have one line per thread instead of one line per comment? Thus, instead of having five lines of comments on "Gristmill overload", it might have one line that proclaims, for example, "Five comments in the last 48 hours on Gristmill overload." I think this would make the "recent comments" column much easier to read.
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Gar Lipow Posted 7:34 am
29 Jan 2007
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wiscidea Posted 7:30 am
30 Jan 2007
I would like to suggest a variation on Kif's suggestion that you combine posts.
I was digging into past discussions related to carbon offsets and realized something... your contributors occasionally resurect lost topics by creating very similar new posts. Then people argue back and forth, especially those new to the Grist website, like the topic has never been discussed before -- probably annoying the founding members of the Grist family.
I was going to point to some specific examples, but that might not only offend your contributors, but also generate a flurry of unnecessary arguments.
My suggestion...
If a contributor's post is closely related to an earlier topic of THEIRS (still can't get the italics to work), it should somehow be attached to the earlier post. That way, new folks like myself can scroll up to the top of the "super" thread and avoid rehashing old material. Could minimize repetative topics, encourage contributors to generate truly new material for discussion, and reduce redundant commentary.
Forward!
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willa Posted 9:05 am
01 Feb 2007
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Nucbuddy Posted 9:51 am
01 Feb 2007
And if your post endorsed the geocentric model of the universe, a comment by Galileo pointing out inconsistencies implied by that model could be deleted by you? If so, would that be helpful?
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GRLCowan Posted 11:07 am
01 Feb 2007
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:20 pm
01 Feb 2007
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Nucbuddy Posted 1:41 pm
01 Feb 2007
you can just use the title as part of the post.
our-kids.org/Archives/email_netiquette.html
Don't begin your message with a few words in the Subject line and continue in the body of the message. That leads to discontinuity of the message and defeats the purpose of the Subject Line.
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willa Posted 3:01 pm
01 Feb 2007
Of course, everyone else may feel totally differently. But since David actually asked what things could use a change, I thought I'd mention it.
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KathyF Posted 3:28 pm
01 Feb 2007
As for trolls, I'd hate to see them deleted, unless they are blatantly offensive. I don't want this to become a gathering of "yes people", those who agree to agree.
And trolls will point out the flaws in an argument, even if it's merely a linguistic problem. I personally have learned how to address the many skeptics I come across in my daily environment by reading the responses to some of the trolls here.
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Nucbuddy Posted 3:43 pm
01 Feb 2007
How do you address this:
gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/1/15/1950/64392/#77
gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/1/15/1950/64392/#79
problem-strength is inversely-proportional to energy availability.
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caniscandida Posted 5:32 pm
01 Feb 2007
On "titles," and "netiquette": Frankly, I think the subject line is not a hard challenge, and often it can be a lot of fun. Indeed, the titles that the principal writers for Gristmill and Daily Grist come up with all the time, to say nothing of Umbra, who is la creme de la creme, are quite entertaining, no? One imagines them all, reclining in their plush penthouse overlooking Puget Sound, munching on biscotti and sipping champagne; and every couple of minutes, one of them bubbles forth cheerily, "Oh, I thought of another good one!"
But I have nothing against BioD's suggestion, just to start the first sentence of the comment in the subject line and continue below. I have never observed that practice to cause any confusion in a Gristmill thread.
It is a good thing that people are trying to hammer out a code of "netiquette." But such a code will inevitably remain a bit fluid and relativistic, so far as we can foresee.
On the other hand, clarity is a great virtue, and in this context it includes specifying to whom we are responding, and to which point that that earlier writer made.
Good spelling and good grammar count too. They show consideration for one's readers. But really, they benefit the writer him/herself. If we want someone to read us and understand us, we ought to write clearly.
One example of poor clarity, verging on illegibility, which especially vexes me, is a comment written without a proper -- if any! -- use of capital letters.
On the erasure of "trolls": Well, sure, Gar has a point, so let him and the other oligarchs do it. But it must be recognized that that is an extreme gesture, and so the criteria for doing it must be very strict.
How about if the oligarch-poster were to write a comment, to the effect that he/she wants to erase a comment by the alleged troll Dwotshisnumber, but he/she will only go ahead and do it if within a certain period a majority of comments in response support the erasure? I do not like the idea in general that the will of a majority might be empowered to restrict the rights of a disliked minority; but in this context, which is rather different than, say, the government of 300 million Americans, I am willing to allow that so long as the oligarch conducts him/herself, ever prudently and discerningly, as an enlighted despot ruling with an indulgent smile over his/her thread, then let him/her do as he/she pleases.
Chickens are our cousins!
So are other sensitive animals!
Enough is enough!
No more factory farms!
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