- The Times cites Consumer Reports, which found actual on-the-road efficiency to be just 25 mpg for the Accord hybrid.
The E.P.A. figures show a larger benefit for the hybrid, but the agency's fuel economy figures are considered by many to be inaccurate because they do not reflect the way cars are actually driven.
The EPA figures are 29/37 mpg city/highway for an automatic transmission Accord hybrid. That's about a 15 percent jump in fuel efficiency if you drive like the EPA thinks you should. There are a number of habits many people have that needlessly hamper fuel efficiency (flooring it from light to light is an egregious example). Installing an mpg meter in your car lets you know when you are getting the best mileage and what behaviors detract from optimal fuel efficiency, rewarding the driver with flashing lights and colors, to which the human brain seems to respond. - One hybrid owner was quoted as saying:
I wasn't prepared to give up anything to 'go green' - not performance, amenities, or space.
Maybe it's because I just read Suburban Nation, but this sounds similar to the concept of "induced traffic." The idea there is that building more roads or lanes on a highway, rather than easing and speeding traffic flow, leads to more traffic: Drivers will flock to the faster-moving roads until they become just as congested as before.In the same way, making cars more efficient, rather than leading people to buy new cars with similar performance but higher gas mileage, could lead people to buy new cars with higher performance but similar gas mileage. So the end result will be the same overall level of fuel use, but roads packed with high performance cars. If the quoted driver is indicative of public sentiment, new hybrids could have a neutral environmental impact at best.
Get your (hybrid) motor runnin’ 19
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Posted 3:54 PM on 17 Jul 2005
by Andy Brett -
Posted in
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The New York Times reports this morning on the 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid. Two points of note:
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MikeCapone Posted 9:11 am
17 Jul 2005
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/07/we_want_fuel_ec.php
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SUVs are squared-out minivans.
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MikeCapone Posted 9:11 am
17 Jul 2005
I noticed a trend: Almost all articles will compared an hybrid's real world mpg (which is easy to find because of the fuel economy feedback in hybrids) to the EPA mpg figures of other cars.
Car journalists need to realize that you either compare EPA to EPA, or real-world to real-world. You can't mix and match and get anything worth a damn.
Another thing is that car journalists don't usually drive for fuel economy; it's not their car, they probably don't pay for gas and usually just cite EPA mpg figures in their articles, so they don't have to calculate mpg during their tests. They just floor it and drive hard and have fun.
No wonder they get crappy mileage on hybrids, they probably get in the 10-20 mpg range with most other cars...
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SUVs are squared-out minivans.
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Steve Frisch Posted 12:27 am
18 Jul 2005
I feel better. I get tax breaks ($2000 the first year). I pay lower registration fees. I pollute less, less greenhouse gasses, a greater proportion less than fuel reduction would indicate. Some day soon in California I will get to use the HOV lanes. I can park easier. People smile at me.
Who cares about gas milage....it is worth it just for the positive vibe it gives your life.
It is a beginning to getting where we need to go.
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amazingdrx Posted 1:34 am
18 Jul 2005
If hybrids are abandoned, what chance do plugin hybrids and the following step to all plugin cars have of being taken?
Comparing apples to oranges again, that's a classic fallacy, good job andy! By bringing it up you get us on the right track to defending against this latest attack tactic.
(Even though you bought it, hook, line, and sinker, hehehey)
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Ana Unruh Cohen Posted 2:31 am
18 Jul 2005
Of course you could just institute feebates - which have been discussed a lot here on gristmill - and reward all purchasers of efficient vehicles!
"The book of nature is always open." - Louis Agassiz
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:36 am
18 Jul 2005
*Sarcasm alert or indication of attempted humor.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com
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Andy Brett Posted 6:59 am
18 Jul 2005
Some clarification:
All I meant with the first point was that the way you drive a car has a big effect on the gas mileage you get. If you're Consumer Reports and just having fun, as Mike put it, you will get worse gas mileage. I wasn't saying anyone was necessarily comparing apples to oranges, just that there's a way to drive like an apple and a way to drive like an orange, and that a mpg meter helps the driver tell the difference. I also don't see how that is falling for it hook line and sinker ;)
On point two: Let's say there's a guy, Hybrid Harry. Before hybrids came around, Harry had two options when it came to cars. Option one was a fast car, 0 to 60 in 8 seconds, but it only got 13 mpg. Option two was a more sensible option, 0 to 60 in 14 seconds, but 25 mpg. Harry really wants the fast car, but because gas prices are so high, Harry can't afford to drive anything that gets less than 25 mpg, so Harry goes for the sensible car.
Now add in hybrids. Now Harry can have the best of both worlds, a car that goes 0 to 60 in 8 seconds and still gets 25 mpg. Harry is now going to go for the hybrid that gets 25 mpg but goes 0 to 60 in 8 seconds rather than the hybrid that gets 60 mpg but goes 0 to 60 in 14 seconds.
That's why I'm saying that these hybrids might have a neutral effect.
I agree with Steve that there are numerous other intangible benefits here. However, while I don't want to rain on Steve's parade, a blanket, one-size-fits-all hybrid subsidy may not be the way to go IF (and it's a large if) the above scenario occurs a lot (Harry switches from the sensible choice to the fast car choice).
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jdhlax Posted 2:36 pm
18 Jul 2005
Compared to these harms, air pollution is a minor detail.
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amazingdrx Posted 11:55 pm
18 Jul 2005
Sorry Andy.
The performance of a hybrid or prefferably all electric car that uses a substantial amount of capacitors to supplement batteries would provide very high acceleration for short time periods.
Just what performance minded drivers want, and those capacitors would recharge from braking into corners or stop lights. They act just like the rechargable flash in a camera. Providing a high power burst of energy.
Technically at least, electric cars (and hybrids) can provide performance AND high mileage. But will they be manufactured?
Not here in the US under present monoply corporation lobbyist government partnership to maintain the infernal combustion status quo.
The problems are not technical and scientific, they are political and corporate. And confusing measurement of mileage figures used for political points only make things worse.
One would think that the EPA and "Consumer Reports" would be trustworthy? Wrong.
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amazingdrx Posted 12:00 am
19 Jul 2005
Perhaps I am a bit too aggressive when I sense the usual tactics being hauled out... for the umpteenth time. It looks like I was mistaken in this case.
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odograph Posted 12:25 am
19 Jul 2005
my problem with "apples/oranges" is that the choice should not be "escape/escape-hybrid" but also "escape/escape-hybrid/focus-wagon/prius".
people's needs and choices are never so clear as the artificial "+/- hybrid" decision "forced" by the definition that "escape/escape-hybrid" is the only fair (apples/apples) comparison.
moreover, i believe the fact that these suv and performance hybrids basically suck on mpg is going to blowback as "hybrids don't work" or "hybrids don't work for most people"
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
you just watch
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odograph Posted 12:37 am
19 Jul 2005
let's pretend that automobile purchases are not 90% social-communication and self-branding, and let's pretend that someone is going to make a (as is sometimes suggested) a prius/camry decision based on pennies saved.
i have a prius, and i never in my life would own a camry.
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:29 am
19 Jul 2005
Find a way to make it a status symbol to get the highest total gas mileage and you will be on to something. Maybe an LED sign that lets you brag about it to people stuck in traffic behind you. "I flew to Hawaii on the gas my hybrid saved."
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:15 pm
19 Jul 2005
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com
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odograph Posted 10:46 pm
19 Jul 2005
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odograph Posted 11:03 pm
19 Jul 2005
http://hybrids.autoblog.com/entry/1234000560051047/
... actually I think I'm just going to unsubscribe from that feed. You see them corrected in the comments section, and then they come right back with statements like:
"We have said this many times that the benefit of hybrids is not their fuel economy, which could be attained by a regular gasoline engine car, albeit a smaller one."
I guess they think some hypothetical gas-only Insight would also get 63 real-world mpg?
Anyway, if you want to see negative spin on hybrids, that blog is your test tube.
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amazingdrx Posted 2:27 am
20 Jul 2005
Anything to diss any alternative to the status quo.
But look on the bright side, the usual suspects are now afraid to tout clean coal, nukes (fission or fusion), and the hydrogen economy as a possible solution.
It is heartening indeed that those wing nut poltically correct judges ruled that the EPA does not have to enforce mileage standards by throwing doubt on global climate disaster from fossil fuel CO2 emmisions.
Why is that heartening? Well because the neo-conservative push for nuclear power as a solution to global climate disaster is now dead in the water.
We are winning some small battles. And at the same time a large majority of voters now believe global climate disaster is real.
Oh yeah, and the phrase "wing nuts" is now part of the teevee lexicon, Ron Reagan jr. used it on his MSNBC show. I am proud to have used this phrase thousands of times over the years on the net and thus helping to popularize it, hehey.
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amazingdrx Posted 2:34 am
20 Jul 2005
Real world driving rather than a setup test by various groups that maybe biased towards either infernal combustion or hybrids, that bias affecting their respective driving styles.
And why not include plugin hybrids and all electric vehicles in the test?
Put your money where your mouth is oil based transportation advocates. Us hybrid, plugin hybrid, and electric car advocates are ready to let the chips fall where they may.
By going to court against mileage standards the EPA now represents the oil powered auto industry.
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amazingdrx Posted 3:20 pm
22 Jul 2005
Does the hybrid really use the same amount of gas as the original model? Nope, not in real world driving.
Did consumer reports or the EPA spend 30 minutes creeping ahead in traffic with the electric motor only powering the creep and the gas engine off? This IS real world driving in many areas of the US.
And in those conditions, even these supercharged hybrids use battery power reclaimed during braking to substitute for gas.
And another factor was omitted. What about the fact that the faster accelerating hybrid appeals to the more power crowd without lowering gas mileage. Face it, the more power crowd will always buy power anyway, let it be gas saving power.
The solution is to give them bigger electric motors and smaller gas engines, with capacitors supplementing the batteries, that gives a fierce burst of acceleration for take off or passing. It works like the flash in your camera, storing a large burst of energy, that is then partially reclaimed, in the case of a hybrid, upon decelleration.
The really low power electric combined with high power gas engine is not optimal for gas savings or power, give the acceleration craving public both!
And don't criticize the whole concept of hybrids, and especially plugin hybrids, based on these new high power models.
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