Europe, pioneering ways to fubar a carbon trading system 4

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1. 

   JMG Posted 3:08 am
   21 Nov 2008

   Beware schadenfreudeMaybe, rather than assuming that it's just those zany Europeans and their inept ways, we should ask whether any system that has so many opportunities for going wrong is sufficiently robust for the problem it is needed to solve (saving humanity from itself).
   Carbon trading is a Rube Goldberg/Dr. Seuss form of carbon tax.  When all is said and done, it must raise the price on carbon emissions or it fails.  It puts the people that Thomas Frank so deftly exposed as frauds in "One Market Under God" in charge of the most important program we have.
   A carbon tax has the virtue of simplicity, plus we have thousands of years of experience with taxation, not so much with pollution trading.
   
   The 5% Project
   
   
   
   Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.

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2. 

   jestbill Posted 4:43 am
   21 Nov 2008

   chill.Rather than blaming EITHER the system or those zany Euros, you might think a bit about human psychology.
   Their system didn't do much to begin with because they knew there would be opposition, they knew there would be troublesome details to work out.  Done.
   Their system is now in operation but won't do much yet to give sluggards a chance to catch up.  Nothing in these type of human affairs happens quickly.  Further, the money won't amount to much at first and, since money is fungible, IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE what they do with it.
   Later on, the system can be fixed up to do whatever makes sense then.  For now, it's a whole lot better than the American system.
   
   Which part of "all" don't you understand?

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3. 

   henryjoe Posted 9:34 am
   21 Nov 2008

   Carbon TradingWhat this comes down to is that industries with stacks will be required to pay a TAX. The increased tax will be passed onto the public. The public will complain, but to mo avail since its hard to roll back any Fed or State program.
   
   So we get US products costing more money and becoming less attractive to overseas markets meaning we import more products from places w/o carbon taxes, so the world wide effect is to increase carbon emissions.
   
   Elec utilities, especially coal generators,  will be the first to get swacked. The utilities will buy offsets from silly alternatives : acompany with large forest assests can sell those offsets , get income and actually do nothing for lessening emissions.
   
   Our biggest resource for generating electricity coal will be forced to reduce power production, cusuing blackouts and limiting production/manufacturing growth in hte USA. This will result in more  imports and ...see above.

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4. 

   JMG Posted 2:56 pm
   21 Nov 2008

   Imports another reasons a straight tax is superiorWith a carbon tax, it's straightforward to tax all imported goods based on their embedded energy and the distance/mode of shipping into the US.  So we need not see a flight away from US-made goods and, in fact, might well see a return of manufacturers to these shores, as they can essentially give themselves a huge competitive advantage by sourcing clean power and locating near their markets.
   None of this happens with a cap-and-trade system.
   
   The 5% Project
   
   
   
   Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.

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