Edwards not as green as you thought: When a ban isn't a ban
Why Edwards’ ‘ban’ on coal plants does little good against climate change 42
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Posted 6:25 PM on 10 Sep 2007
by David Roberts -
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David Roberts is staff writer for Grist. You can follow his Twitter feed at twitter.com/drgrist.
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askantik Posted 11:04 am
10 Sep 2007
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Biodiversivist Posted 12:14 pm
10 Sep 2007
Money can't buy everything. We must have spent a trillion on fusion by now. Don't let him get away with this. We need a price on carbon and a moratorium on coal plants.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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sirius Posted 12:41 pm
10 Sep 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89i9I7juUYY
It was recorded last Thursday night. In it, Edwards says the following:
"We should not build another coal-fired power plant in America, unless we actually have the ability to capture the carbon, which we don't have today. We don't need to make a bad situation worse."
That sounds pretty unambiguously like he won't allow any more coal-fired power plants to be built until they can be built with carbon sequestration technology. Now, I'm not up on the technology enough to know how far off that is, but reading between the lines of your article, I think that you're implying that Dodd's plan would give us 5 to 10 years to consider things, because that's how far off the technology it is. So if I read correctly between the lines of your article, Edwards would give us exactly the same 5 to 10 year time to ponder options.
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:51 pm
10 Sep 2007
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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sunflower Posted 2:08 pm
10 Sep 2007
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GreenMom Posted 2:33 pm
10 Sep 2007
One of them is likely to become president. We need to educate them somehow.
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kayser Posted 3:09 pm
10 Sep 2007
Does it address a market failure besides the externality of CO2 pollution or the spillover effects of renewables R&D investment?
If not -- if this is simply another way to target CO2 pollution -- can we agree that a moratorium is not part of the optimal policy portfolio, and that instead we need a carbon tax?
A moratorium just sounds like heavy-handed command-and-control to me. If we have a solid idea of the risk-adjusted future costs of climate change, let's internalize those costs into carbon-emitting activities. What, separately, does a moratorium accomplish?
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GreyFlcn Posted 4:33 pm
10 Sep 2007
I find that highly doubtful.
Whats more likely is that they build it, only to find that the CCS doesn't work, and that they get the permitters to bend, and allow for it's operation anyways.
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GreyFlcn Posted 4:34 pm
10 Sep 2007
That never actually comes.
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GreenEngineer Posted 4:41 pm
10 Sep 2007
Not quite. We can also shut down the old, existing coal plants and keep the more efficient IGCC units running. Of course, we will have to replace the lost generation capacity somehow, but we're going to have to do that one way or another. In the meantime, those IGCC plants -- which are quite expensive -- will have to compete on a capital cost basis with renewables. That probably means that relatively more wind, and relatively less coal, get built.
We might, just might, get five or ten years down the road with no net increase in coal generation. We aren't going to phase out coal entirely, though, for quite some time. If the plants we build now are IGCC, and we put a cost on carbon, then the incentive to shut down old coal is relatively greater, even if we don't have CSS.
In the short term, I'm not at all convinced that a total moratorium on coal plants (which is what a CSS requirement is, effectively, at this point) has a snowball's chance in hell of becoming policy. A requirement for coal to be IGCC might, though. I'd rather see a policy that handicaps new coal vs. renewables, and improves the overall quality of the coal generation assets, that actually has a chance of happening; rather than a policy which is better environmentally but has no real chance for survival in the political process.
Remember, the ultimate question is not what the candidate promises, but what we think they can actually pull off.
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David Roberts Posted 6:55 pm
10 Sep 2007
Fair question. A reasonable price on carbon will, I think, effectively act as a moratorium. Coal plants won't make economic sense in carbon-constrained world. But it will take a while for the price on carbon to rise to sufficient levels, and for the carbon market to mature.
Meanwhile, the coal industry is racing to build a buch of plants before that happens. And once you build a coal plant, it's spewing emissions for 30, 40, 50 years. The coal industry is trying to create facts on the ground, as the Israelis say -- a set of new plants that will, just by their existence, provide enormous incentive to keep plying the coal industry with subsidies, chasing the elusive "clean" coal.
The fight over coal is right now.
GreenE,
In the short term, I'm not at all convinced that a total moratorium on coal plants (which is what a CSS requirement is, effectively, at this point) has a snowball's chance in hell of becoming policy. A requirement for coal to be IGCC might, though.
What better chance to shape the space of political possibility than a presidential primary? If coal moratorium becomes the consensus position of Democrats, and Democrats win Congress and the presidency, then it would certainly have a snowball's chance. It's up to us to push them toward optimal policy, not exclude the possibility right out of the gate.
grist.org
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justlou Posted 9:32 pm
10 Sep 2007
But, given our nature to muddle into the future, and given a rather bleak forecast of that future due to our propensity to muddle, very that few of these coal plants will ever sequester carbon.
Once society is dependent on these plants does anyone believe that we'll really have a shutdown switch under our control that will stop production if the costs exceed what an economically constrained society can afford?
And I can imagine that the "easy" sequestration would be done first. It is very likely that a curve of sequestration would follow -- a depletion of our technological and economic means to sequester.
So, then where are we? Further out on the proverbial overshoot limb of unsustainabilty with weakened means to fashion a truly sustainable future.
We are on the wrong path with coal. Ratcheting up the coal technology and complexity does not remove us from that path.
We need political leadership that helps us better define the mission to the right path.
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Sean Casten Posted 11:30 pm
10 Sep 2007
I'm not trying to raise biofuels pro/con debates here, but it's worth noting that regardless of where you stand on that particular issue, you would probably agree that a car getting 20 mpg on gasoline ought not to be seen as a good thing from a CAFE perspective. And yet that is exactly what the flexfuel rules have done.
Of relevance to this debate because the path that seems to be suggested by Edwards is that coal plant could greenwash themselves simply by burning more coal but with the potential to deal with the carbon. Or in the interim, that Edwards could greenwash himself by voting for potential action rather than real action. Let's not make the same mistake twice.
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justlou Posted 11:50 pm
10 Sep 2007
Clinton and Obama would keep us on the coal "transition" path. Technocrats, finding the middle way to steady the forward stampede but taking us further from sustainability.
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sunflower Posted 11:51 pm
10 Sep 2007
Coal power moratoriums must include coal export moratoriums.
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GreenMom Posted 11:51 pm
10 Sep 2007
Although in terms of policy-making after the election it won't matter exactly what's been said during the primaries, their statements do provide a window into all the candidates' thinking. And I fear they don't quite get it.
That said, I think Edwards gets it a bit better than the other two. But all three are quick studies. They just need to hear the right voices.
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Biodiversivist Posted 12:08 am
11 Sep 2007
Calling for a moratorium at this point might do more harm than good. Politicians often blow off pledges they made once they get into office anyway. If we can get a price on carbon it will kill coal plants. Building new ones knowing they will be killed in five years by carbon costs should freeze out investors.
Dave's points are rational. Unfortunately, people aren't.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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amazingdrx Posted 12:20 am
11 Sep 2007
Still GHG to deal with from the natural gas, but with the extra gas as backup power, wind and solar could proceed. And 70% efficient solid oxide fuel cell/turbine power plants running on natural gas would reduce GHG from present levels with 30% efficient coal power plants.
These fuel cell plants can run on biogas digested from manure and other waste as well, preventing a lot of methane release (methane is a 23 times worse GHG than cO2).
We need a team comprised of the new cabinet to campaign in the presidential race after the primaries. Gore as energy secretary championing renewables and plugin vehicles, Edwards as corporate monopoly corruption fighting AG, and so forth.
A team of democrats ready to start fixing the mess-o-america that duuuhbya's mess-o-potamia has left behind. Every aspect of our country neglected and all the money gone to bush friendly corporate contractors to not-rebuild Iraq.
Driven across a bridge in rush hour traffic lately, be afraid? Has it been condemned yet? Who would know, everything is secret, for national security.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog
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Sean Casten Posted 12:37 am
11 Sep 2007
Today, the D's have a lock on environmental issues, but we shouldn't take that as any more of a given than the R's historic grasp on small government. Giving Edwards - or any other D candidate - a pass on environmental issues only risks squandering this point of advantage.
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sunflower Posted 12:40 am
11 Sep 2007
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mkayser Posted 1:04 am
11 Sep 2007
A reasonable price on carbon will, I think, effectively act as a moratorium. Coal plants won't make economic sense in carbon-constrained world. But it will take a while for the price on carbon to rise to sufficient levels, and for the carbon market to mature.
Meanwhile, the coal industry is racing to build a buch of plants before that happens. And once you build a coal plant, it's spewing emissions for 30, 40, 50 years.
Sorry, I don't understand. A tax on emissions will rise to a significant level before 30, 40, 50 years, right?
So presumably coal plants, including new ones, will only be profitably dirty until the tax phases in to a significant level. This should both
(1) discourage production of coal plants right now (the expected lifetime profit of the plant is lower), and
(2) ensure that CO2 emissions do not last the lifetime of the plant, but only until the CO2 tax gets sufficiently ramped up.
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marky367 Posted 1:12 am
11 Sep 2007
If the thought is depressing, have a laugh.
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:46 am
11 Sep 2007
I've been there more times than I can count. That's why I love my hybrid bike so.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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GreyFlcn Posted 2:16 am
11 Sep 2007
Chances are there are a lot cheaper options to reduce 10% of that energy use, or introduce combined heat and power, or just cogeneration to meet that 10% mark, MUCH more cheaply.
Building a bunch of IGCC plants will merely burn a hole in our pocket, effectively starving funding that could have just as easily been invested in renewables.
It's all about Opportunity Costs.
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:33 am
11 Sep 2007
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Paulp Posted 4:32 am
11 Sep 2007
A simple chemical calculation shows that one pound of carbon from coal produces 3.7 pounds of CO2, a gas that cannot be stored. Methods being waved around are fantasies - pumping it into a hole in the ground and expecting it to stay there, or reacting it with lime which has to be made by producing much more CO2.
Don't fall for their sucker stories. Coal is a loser. Period! Sequestration is a story for children.
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John Passacantando Posted 4:59 am
11 Sep 2007
Furthermore, even if you capture and sequester all the carbon emissions from new coal plants (which is currently technically NOT POSSIBLE) the beautiful mountains of West Virginia are still going to be ground up and burned. How to cut emissions without nukes or coal? Plans abound, here's ours:http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/news/global-energy-scenario ...
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askantik Posted 5:20 am
11 Sep 2007
The only thing I want to educate Obama, Clinton, or Edwards on is that they aren't the best candidates. I don't agree with the media. I want to educate them and tell them that I ain't votin' for them, and neither should you.
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Chaoslillith Posted 6:12 am
11 Sep 2007
From the very link you site:
Ban the Construction of Coal Plants that Cannot Capture Carbon: Edwards will require that all new coal-fired plants be built with technology needed to capture carbon dioxide emissions. Plants can use integrated gasification combined cycle (IGCC) technology or other effective approaches. As a result, the plants built today will be able to permanently and safely store their carbon emissions tomorrow. In addition, Edwards will explore ways to address the carbon dioxide emitted by current power plants.
Make a Historic Commitment to Safe Carbon Storage: Although the underground storage of carbon dioxide holds great promise, more research and experience is needed in large-scale projects. By investing $1 billion a year from his New Energy Economy Fund, Edwards will accelerate the technology's progress and reduce its cost. He will test at least three large-scale efforts to capture, transport, and store carbon dioxide. He will also provide clarity for businesses by setting rules for capturing, transporting and storing carbon dioxide.
If you look further on Edwards' site you will see the following:
Cap and Reduce Global Warming Pollution: Edwards will set an economy-wide limit on the emission of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. He will build on the precedent of the Clean Air Act of 1990 -- which limited pollution causing acid rain through a sulfur dioxide cap-and-trade system -- to reduce pollution in a cost-effective and flexible manner.
Use Science to Set the Caps: Edwards will cap greenhouse gases at levels that the latest climate science has determined to be necessary to avoid the worst impacts of global warming. He will reduce greenhouse pollution by 20 percent by 2020, and reduce it by 80 percent by 2050.
Make Polluters Pay: Edwards will auction off a portion of the pollution permits to raise $10 billion a year for a New Energy Economy Fund to jumpstart clean, renewable, and efficient energy technologies and create 1 million jobs. Other permits will be sold or given away.
Create the New Energy Economy Fund: To jumpstart our investment in the future, Edwards will create the $13 billion-a-year New Energy Economy Fund. The fund will be financed by greenhouse gas polluters through the sale of emission permits and by ending taxpayer giveaways for big oil companies, including special tax subsidies and sweetheart terms in offshore drilling leases. The resources will double the Department of Energy's budget for efficiency and renewable energy, accelerate new energy technologies to market and help new businesses get started, encourage consumers to buy efficient products, and provide transition assistance to workers in carbon-intensive industries.
Invest in Renewable Sources of Electricity: Renewable energy has been seen as socially desirable but costly. However, wind is already competitive with conventional sources in many markets. Solar could be competitive within three to eight years. [RAND, 2006; Economist, 3/10/2007]
Make 25 Percent of Our Energy Renewable: Edwards will require power companies to generate 25 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2025. A large expansion of renewable energy can reduce costs under current trends, according to a 2006 RAND study. In Texas, a similar requirement achieved its goals quickly with negligible costs through the accelerated development of wind power. [RAND, 2006]
Dedicate Resources to Renewable Energy: Edwards will double the Department of Energy research budget, allowing it to reduce the cost and accelerate the marketability of current technologies to put clean solar, wind, and biomass into more communities. He will also encourage private investment by making permanent tax credits for the production of renewable energy; they currently expire at the end of 2008.
Maximize the Potential of Cleaner, Safer Coal: Coal will be an important source of U.S. and global electricity for decades, but it is responsible for more than 30 percent of America's carbon dioxide emissions. Edwards will invest $1 billion a year to research ways to burn coal cleanly and recycle its carbon underground permanently. He will also strengthen mine safety laws to ensure it is mined safely. Two large power companies, TXU and American Electric Power, recently announced plans to build experimental plants to capture carbon. [NYT, 3/15/2007 and 3/17/2007; McFarland, Herzog, and Jacoby, 2007] Yes coal is in there. However, Edwards realizes the whole world cannot get off coal. China is pushing a lot of initiatives to try to get their country healthier before the Olympics but they have a long way to go. If we can create technologies that make coal cleaner for those countries as well as our own it will help. We will eventually get completely off coal due to the emissions caps Edwards wants to put in place, but we need something transitory until then.
Edwards also wants to push localization of renewable energy.
Open the Electricity Grids to Distributed and Renewable Generation: Traditionally, electricity has been produced at large, central power plants and transmitted through miles of power lines. Distributed generation of electricity promises reliable, clean, cost-effective production that is less vulnerable to natural disasters and attacks. Farms, factories, schools, and communities ought to be able to establish their own power sources and compete with traditional plants to sell wholesale capacity, as New England has pioneered. [DOE, 2000; New England ISO, 2006]
To open up the grid to innovation, Edwards will:
Create Millions of Local Sources of Renewable Energy: Edwards will provide up to a $5,000 tax credit for homes and small businesses that invest in onsite generation of renewable energy like solar, wind, and geothermal power. He will also encourage local generation of renewable energy through "net metering," which allows families to sell extra power back to utilities for credits against their electricity bills.
Encourage Distributed Generation: Edwards will cut the red tape that hinders new energy producers from selling their power to the grid. He will require utilities to consider distributed generation as a means of lowering costs compared to new investments in centralized production and transmission.
Research the Next Generation of Small Scale Renewable Energy: Edwards will invest in researching more profitable sources of renewable energy generation. For example, biomass engines producing both heat and power that can be three times more efficient than traditional distribution. [Hill, 2001]
So don't take one thing someone supposedly was told as the gospel truth about Edwards. Look at his whole plan and then decide.
Come check out my blog. http://www.environmentalprogress.blogspot.com/
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David Roberts Posted 7:03 am
11 Sep 2007
However, I'm not passing on gossip. I talked to a source on Edwards' energy policy team -- the team that developed the policy. I agree that the language on his site is ambiguous. That's why I called. He was very clear about the policy.
grist.org
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BruceMcF Posted 7:40 am
11 Sep 2007
To date, I am still waiting for the policy statement or media spokesman statement that requires electric utilities to build IGCC plants.
That is, in the sense that they are required to meet a 25% portfolio standard for renewable power ... they have to build the IGCC plants.
Indeed, the policy statements quoted do not make clear whether sequestration equipment has to be included ... if it is possible to return to the un-named media spokesperson and have them provide a precise answer, that would clear up the ambiguity.
However, assuming the worst case (which would remain superior to the policies of Senator Clinton and Obama), if a utility chooses to build an IGCC plant, and then at a later date can neither sequester the CO2 nor obtain the carbon permit to operate the plant with mineral coal, shutting it down or operating it as a back-up power plant with biomass coal is precisely what they would have to do.
And, indeed, if we have established a solid national industry in renewable power generation, thanks to the 25% national RPS, by that time allowing the plant to shut down, or act as an emergency reserve, would not be politically controversial ... since there would be a substantial degree of economic/political clout wielded the renewable power industry.
Virtually Yours, BruceMcF
Energize America 2020
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sunflower Posted 7:59 am
11 Sep 2007
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wiscidea Posted 9:27 am
11 Sep 2007
Very sad. Very very sad.
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/9/4/123247/9991/#40 ...
Forward!
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sunflower Posted 10:07 am
11 Sep 2007
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BruceMcF Posted 10:44 am
11 Sep 2007
Of course, under Edwards plan, increased energy demands over the first decade would be met through improved energy efficient, by the end of that ten year period electric utilities will have to have substantial new renewable energy generating capacity if they are going to be on track to meeting the portfolio standard, and by that time as well the increased cost of coal from the need to buy permits will be shifting the commercial appeal of coal.
So under that plan, any new coal plants commissioned in the first ten years would be replacing older, dirtier coal plants, rather than being the expansion in coal generating capacity that the author of this post envisions.
Virtually Yours, BruceMcF
Energize America 2020
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GreyFlcn Posted 11:04 am
11 Sep 2007
I look at it the other way.
Politicians are only as green as their constituents.
And silence is the same as acceptance.
Besides which, without an unyielding green, there's nothing to baseline what "compromise green" is.
_
In a weird way, politics is a lot like haggling.
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Gar Lipow Posted 12:21 pm
11 Sep 2007
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GreyFlcn Posted 1:12 pm
11 Sep 2007
And depending where the trees are located is a big factor. All trees aren't worth the same.
Planktos, so far I'm convinced that they aren't gonna make anything really happen.
Some offsets are good, some aren't.
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David Roberts Posted 1:43 pm
11 Sep 2007
Wiscidea, your attempt at a gotcha point is silly -- there's no parallel where you're trying to draw one -- but regardless, you've made it four or five times now. That's enough. Next time I'll delete it.
grist.org
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wiscidea Posted 12:17 am
12 Sep 2007
"Wiscidea, your attempt at a gotcha point is silly -- there's no parallel where you're trying to draw one -- but regardless, you've made it four or five times now. That's enough. Next time I'll delete it."
As though every one of your analogies is perfect. As though no one else here repeats the same point over and over and over and over and over and over. As though the Grist website isn't dripping with sarcasm.
I'll be posting the same comment the next time it appears appropriate. I thought you were tired of criticism of fellow environmentalists. I thought you were looking for more positive discussion. All hands on deck! We have to unite to defeat greed and consumerism! Stop criticizing your fellow environmentalists if they are at least trying to do something! Divided we fall!
Rather than directly attacking Edwards for one minor policy disagreement, how about focusing on articles telling us why other candidates are better? This would be far more productive than further illuminating every prominent person's flaws. FOCUS OF THE POSITIVE. Isn't that what you've asked for?
Perhaps you should just block my access to your website right now. It would show that environmentalism is becoming an intolerant faith-based religion and your are hoping to become one of its high priests. Time for a new inquisition. Weed out all dissent. Make sure those participating in discussions are 100% behind the party line. Perhaps let them speak just a bit -- to suggest open rational dialogue -- but not so loud that others start to pay attention.
Forward!
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Willinois Posted 3:14 pm
05 Dec 2007
It amazes me that people keep beating a dead horse about Obama supporting some funding for research into coal to liquid and distort that into full support for it. Yet Edwards gets a free pass on the much, much larger subsidy he's proposing for the coal industry.
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Pangolin Posted 9:10 pm
05 Dec 2007
Air transport can shift to biofuels in limited quantities and lighter than air aircraft (Zeppelins) for everything else.
Shipping can go back to sail and use solar power to supplement.
Rail and road transport can go electric run by solar panels lining the right of way if needed. Slot cars work all the way up to the semi-truck size.
Bikes will make us all thin and fit and they have neat bells.
Farms can go organic and use permaculture and terra preta techniques to beat corporate ag. We can let pigs be pigs again, cows be cows, chickens be chickens and still be able to eat. Mixed farms are more productive on an EROI term anyway.
But electricity is largely fueled by coal around the world. Coal that starts as a solid and becomes a gas weighing 3.5 times as much and increasing in volume some ungodly amount. Put an inch of boiling water in an empty wine bottle, cork it and shake it (point AWAY from face). That gas requires a lot more space than the liquid did didn't it?
Sure we could go on a crash course of geothermal power plant building, building retrofits, geo-exchange HVAC installation, swirly light bulbs, solar roofs and windmills on every ridge. We could mandate efficiency and reliability standards for all new power using appliances so that they ran cheap and well and gave a return on the investment of producing them. We know that each of these methods works and could take a little slice out of the power useage pie.
We could quit selling so much crap. I have kitchen utensils that I have used daily for 25 years and expect to use my whole life. New stuff falls apart within months. I don't want to talk about the dismal condition of new clothes.
Or......
We could continue to burn coal, pretend we are going to capture the emissions and forget about it in ten years and watch the world burn. Atlanta first if there's any justice. Burning coal burns the planet. It's as simple as that. A plan that includes any growth in coal burning is simply a lie.
Put the Carbon Back
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