Concentrated solar 8

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1. 

   sunflower Posted 3:01 am
   17 Jul 2006

   Brighter than the SunBe very careful with concentrated sunlight, you can get burned.  There is old  government developed technology 1975-1985 called CSP which used heat engines, and has cost prohibitive maintenance issues.  High-intensity pv is the current thinking.
   There is technology pushed by seekers of venture capital, and technology obsessed by crazy inventors.
   Bush "Zeroed out" solar concentrator research and development so there are no objective peer reviewed forums that can be trusted.
   That comment that a square kilometer of sunlight is worth 1,500,000 barrels of oil per year is true, but only 25% can be collected due to collector shade from low sun angles.
   The reported cost is far to high, volume manufacture of concentrators cost $100 to $200 per square meter installed and each square meter will deliver the equivalent of about one barrel of oil per year.  At 10% ROI the cost compares with oil at $10 to $20 per barrel.
   If designed from efficient durable materials and with carefully engineered systems then solar power, solar district heat, and solar industrial process heat can be very cost effective.   And yes, whole cities can be made 100% solar heated and solar cooled with solar concentrators.
   I have worked extensively with solar concentrators...
   http://www.harbornet.com/sunflower/free.html
   
   

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2. 

   DianaJardine Posted 3:15 am
   17 Jul 2006

   BafflingWhy is this not talked about, or better yet, put into action here in the US where we have lots of hot desert?
   I read the nuclear article in the NYTimes magazine, and its sources in the energy industry were so skeptical of solar and wind being able to provide base load, why no mention of CSP if it is as good as it seems?
   
   Diana

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3. 

   sunflower Posted 3:29 am
   17 Jul 2006

   Public Information LiabilityI was told that technology more expensive than historical sources of energy are humored.  The messengers of competitive technology are shot.
   Big business fears nothing more than new technology that would make their enterprise obsolete.  Coal gas light hired off-duty police to be thugs and destroy Edison's lab.  The cable cars of LA were destroyed.  Solar research was suppressed.   Don't mess with business.

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4. 

   disdaniel Posted 5:20 am
   17 Jul 2006

   DanielDiana,
   The US is investing in CSP in the southwest.  About 800MW worth of CSP generation capacity have been announced in the past year.  That is a lot of announced capacity for Solar here in the US.  Articles (like "Concentrating Solar has Arrived" may/june 06 Solar Today) I've read claim $0.11 kWh levelized cost for CSP generation (w/o subsidy) assuming good sun using 20yr+ proven technology (which is cheaper than peak generation cost of natural gas peaking plants).
   Nevertheless you are right to point out that the MSM has missed/ignored these developments.

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5. 

   ffletcher Posted 5:27 am
   17 Jul 2006

   Concentrated SolarI believe concentrated solar has a future, especially PV concentrated solar.  I see that IdeaLabs Energy Innovations has PV concentrator called "Sunflower,"  interesting name there.  Hope to get something going with them or similar.
   Electric utilities in Southern California are working on developing a new solar project in the Mohave.  Unfortunately, the cost of a major central station approach, thermo concentrated solar, seems to get more expensive as we get closer to a deal while solar PV concentrators seems to get less expensive.  Still we may do a deal, even if it is more expensive, as it is new technology that holds promise.
   I like the PV concentrators better than the thermo ones, as they can be located closer to the load.
   I have not found the resistance to new technology that Sunflower speaks with the electric utilities whom I have associated.  At least I have not found it any worst than most people.  Innovation usually has a price to pay.  To the creative who find the world is not beating a path to their door I recommend Rollo May's "The Courage to Create", he speaks of the trials associated with creating.
   
      

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6. 

   sunflower Posted 5:54 am
   17 Jul 2006

   VisionInteresting.  You have a progressive utility.
   That "sunflower" comes from wild Bill Gross.  He sees the potential of solar dishes and has lots of money.  Now hooked on high-intensity Spectrolab cells.  He was doing Stirling engines.
   The thermal solar power system was developed from the leadership of President Carter.  It is old technology good in it's day.  (Luz line-focus, heat sagged glass mirror, oil receiver, evacuated glass jacket, expensive, reliable).
   High-intensity pv is not adequately supported and is wanting political leadership.  Contact Kurtz at NREL for science.
   Here are a couple links for the vision...
   
   http://www.harbornet.com/sunflower/litxs.jpg
   
   http://www.spectrolab.com/DataSheets/Tercel/tercell.pdf

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7. 

   amazingdrx Posted 10:00 pm
   17 Jul 2006

   "Baffling"It really is.  
   Mass production of concentrating panels that mount on roofs and get a combined efficiency of 39% from electric PV under 10 sun concentration (National Renewable Energy Lab figures)along with maybe 30% more for heat collection is possible.
   But where is the spare cash going instead?  To fuel farming, fossil, and nuclear power subsidies.
   And then there are those 55% efficient solar cells going into production that sunflower mentioned.  What would be the efficiency boost from 10 suns for those cells?   Maybe 70%?  
   In Germany solar electric power is being subsidized to the tune of 55 cents per kwh.  Maybe mass production of concentrating solar will emerge from that approach?
   Since wind power systems at 2 cents per kwh are barely being produced with any kind of mass production efficiency, it may take a few more decades of oil war and global meltdown to get solar going.  
   Will NIMBYs stop solar installations as they are halting wind power?  I expect many local zoning authorities, governmental and commercial developer type are already on that.  Prohibiting anything on a roof that does not look like shingles.  
   Thus the push to make solar PV cells look like shingles?  Pretty pathetic.
   
   http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

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8. 

   sunflower Posted 1:18 am
   18 Jul 2006

   Concentrated solar Burning through the woodHeliostats as death-rays
   http://people.linux-gull.ch/rossen/solar/deathray.html

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