OK, I'm probably the last kid on the block to notice this, but ...
This company, Citizenrē, says it will put a solar voltaic system on your house for no upfront cost. All you have to do is pay for the electricity produced by the system, and the company pledges that the cost for that electricity will never exceed what you pay your utility -- in fact, it says it will lock in the price of the solar electricity for 25 years. It will maintain all the equipment, free of cost.
So, um ... what's the catch?
Update [2007-3-12 11:2:22 by David Roberts]: Jeffrey Wolfe argues persuasively that Citizenrē is making claims and promises it can't possibly uphold. It's to early to definitively call this a scam (or a bust), but color me highly, highly skeptical.
Comments View as Flat
wiscidea Posted 2:34 am
12 Mar 2007
The Future?
This sounds like something out of one of Paul Hawkin's books... leasing equipment which has a high cost up front. The cost of manufacture, installation, maintenance, and eventual disposal can all be factored into a regular and more affordable monthly payment spread out over decades.
I assume the company is betting that energy prices will be sky-rocketing and consumers aren't that motivated to improve the efficiency of their homes. Not a very risky gamble. Thus, they can calculate exactly how much they have to charge to make a profit. Consumers are enticed by the stable rate. Though it is not clear if the actually lock your rate at a set dollar amount or whether their rate is always a certain amount below the local utilitity's rate.
Not a bad idea...
UNLESS... someone creates and manufactures a less-expensive photovoltaic system in the next decade or so. The consumer purchasing current technology will still be paying for it years from now while everyone else enjoys a better system.
AND... what if consumers realize they can save even more by upgrading to energy-efficient lights and appliances? Will the company fail if demand from each installed system drops?
BUT... if a person had an electric car or SUV, they could lock in the price of their energy for transportation. This makes the idea more appealing.
Sounds like a personal decision. No catch, but be very very careful when signing a contract for 25 years of electricity.
Forward!
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Gar Lipow Posted 2:39 am
12 Mar 2007
CitizenRe - they will never deliver
I think their intentions are good. But while I believe they have investors, I also don't believe they have all the capital they say they have. IMO, They are planning on using the people they sign up to raise additional capital. Which could work, except that there is no way they can buy solar power at the price they would need to make this work. They have admitted that part of their business plan is to develop new better inverters. Dude? You think you know the sale price of technology you have not even developed yet?
Another thing is they are assuming really low installation costs, lower than company currently can install for. Again the plan is they will develop and especially easy to install system. In short their business plan:
- Get customers by offering low prices - below current cost of technology
- Raise money on those orders
- Develop technology that will let you fufill those orders profitably
In short, I think their business plan was developed by the Underpants GnomesPermalink
Kif Scheuer Posted 2:43 am
12 Mar 2007
This is very interesting
I'd think about something like this. Wiscidea raises some good points. I noticed they have a lot of different contract periods (as low as 1 and 5 years).
How much their rental is below current energy prices is also not clear, and will affect interest. Though you are banking on rates going up and benefiting from stable rates (I think they do state that prices are fixed not pegged to utility rates.
I wonder about their profit. I assume the general plan is steady income for their systems over the lifetime.
Also I'm not sure if you are paying a fixed rent based on expected performance or actual performance. If the former, the customer is going to have the incentive to optimize their system performance, if the latter, Citizenre is going to want to make sure the systems keep performing.
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:45 am
12 Mar 2007
Scam
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47 ...
You can now expect a representative to show up on the blog to attack my post as they usually do at other eco-forums where they promote themselves.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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wiscidea Posted 3:39 am
12 Mar 2007
Multi-Level Marketing Schemes
biodiversivist:
Thank you for the link. It clearly looks like a scam. How can someone sell something they haven't even manufactured? Why would someone give them any money for a product not yet developed? And the words "multi-level marketing" should trigger numerous alarms. Sounds like they want to pocket some money and transfer responsibility for delivering the goods to a bunch of poor schmoes who thought they could make a living by selling green energy.
And then there is the issue of where they get materials. How can they even line up investors when they can't actually predict the cost of manufacturing their product? Shouldn't they have to set up a pilot facilty? There ought to be a law against this sort of thing.
Anyway...
I'll continue looking for an affordable and real -- rather than imaginary -- photovoltaic system, one shown to be reliable and cost-effective. And I'll find a way to finance it myself. Never did like the notion of renting home infrastructure... appears to cost more in the long run. Besides, I would prefer a system that permits me to disconnect from the grid so I have power if a utility line is knocked down. The system described above would not allow it.
Forward!
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sunflower Posted 3:50 am
12 Mar 2007
Why pv?
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Kif Scheuer Posted 3:52 am
12 Mar 2007
yes thanks
reading through that linked exchange was a little hair raising.
Makes me wonder - if their product is so good and their delivery so sound, why shouldn't customers just wait until the supposed factory is up and running to sign up? Then you could see if their business model is going to pan out. Waiting 1 years to lease something whose "benefit" will last ~20 years, seems prudent (ignoring for a moment the effects of delayed support in more substantial PV installers). How much is my electricity rate going to change in that timeframe? What's the rush?
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Kit Stolz Posted 4:02 am
12 Mar 2007
multi-level marketing
Multi-level marketing is a brilliantly deceptive corporate phrase that means selling at different levels, not just to customers, but also to your employees, or to your salespeople. New salespeople come on board in hopes of being able to get rich by selling to other people--mostly people like them--down the line as the company grows.
Multi-level marketeers don't like to admit that, but it's true. One such marketeer did admit to me that "only about 5% of people" can make money at it, because most ordinary people suspect it's a fancy phrase for pyramid scheme.
They're right.
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A Siegel Posted 4:08 am
12 Mar 2007
To be polite ...
Where have you been?
The CitizenRE controversy has been burning up in the web for months, with quite a few strong discussions in the month of February.
My Daily Kos discussion (CitizenRE: "clean-energy vaporware"???) cites a number of these discussions.
From that discussion (see links there):
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wiscidea Posted 4:28 am
12 Mar 2007
Sorry A. Siegel...
It is good to know that you are on top of things. Some of us cannot go to every single website to learn the latest about every single issue. It is good to know someone is out there doing it for us. Perhaps you can set up a website to let us know about these things. Oh... Grist already has.
Please... make sure you point out every case where you are ahead of the crowd so we can applaud your superiority.
Say... I've been trying to catch up on the issue of the demise of the European honey bee in America and the threat to our native pollinators that might pull the rug out from under a large segment of our agricultural economy. Can you direct me to a website where this is being discussed at length? THANKS!
Forward!
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Icelander Posted 5:22 am
12 Mar 2007
Here's how I look at it
They're starting up a new power generation company. But rather than building a series of huge power plants all across the country to serve subscribers, their subscribers are going to be part of their power plants.
I signed a contract, mostly because this is the only way I could conceivably hope to get a solar power system on my roof. I'm 25 and just starting out, so I don't have the credit history or the income to secure a home equity loan to buy a $20,000 system. It seems that the only people who can afford PV systems are retirees.
I've already weatherproofed my house and switched out all my bulbs and I'm buying more efficient appliances as the ones that came with my house start to go. But I want to do more.
I haven't signed up to be a reseller or anything like that. I'll wait and see, but I won't give them any money till I get legal assurances that I'm getting a system installed. The worst that can happen is that they fold, and all I'm out is the couple hours I read over the stuff I've already signed.
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A Siegel Posted 7:23 am
12 Mar 2007
For WiscIdea ...
I am glad that CitizenRE gets blogged here ...
My comment was to David Roberts, a staff writer / blogger at one of the top environmental news / discussion sites ...
Seems to me that Roberts (yes, David, assume that you're reading this) might have spent a minute doing a search re CitizenRE. He would have come across any number of the serious discussions of this. I used my posting as an example ... but also clearly suggested/stated that there were lots of great discussions out there. And, CitizenRE has been advertising (heavily) on the web for something like 4 months ...
Now, for you, mea culpa -- I was not (absolutely NOT) suggesting anything about you or commenting to you. Apologies that you took my comment as an insult to you.
RE bees, you might want to check out Vince CA's excellent discussions ... this, 4 Feb, was the second of two: Pollinator Sunday, Pt 2: Mason Bees. Everything else aside (your annoyance or anger at me), those were beautifully written, informative pieces by someone with a deep knowledge and passion. Well worth the 5-10 minutes to read.
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solarkismet Posted 7:37 am
12 Mar 2007
Nice Idea but Poor Execution
There are a million reasons this won't work and a low chance it will. Maybe it's a scam - there's no way to tell and we're running out of bandwidth talking about it. More than likely, it's a good idea without much direction...
I wrote a three part series on CitizenRE, available here:
Part 1 of 3
Solar Kismet
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wiscidea Posted 7:46 am
12 Mar 2007
My Sincere Apologies, Seriously...
A. Siegel,
I stand corrected and apologize. I cannot justify or defend my comments. I don't know what I was thinking at the time. I'm fortunate that you politely responded rather than perpetuate an unpleasant cycle.
Furthermore, thank you VERY MUCH for the bee information.
Forward!
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A Siegel Posted 11:12 am
12 Mar 2007
Wiscidea ... David
Look -- I was worrying about my offense ...
And, those essays re the bees are truly amazing.
DAVID -- I was rather shocked to search Grist and see that this was the only mention of CitizenRE here. Perhaps a Grist writer should take the time to take a look into it. Let your readers know whether it is great, a fraud, or ... well ... something else.
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A Siegel Posted 11:27 am
12 Mar 2007
Solarkismet's material is quite good ...
glad to see that link ... this is an excellent discussion of CitizenRe ...
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dcmille290 Posted 9:36 pm
12 Mar 2007
Why not do some research, first?
I find it funny that people are always so quick to attack and ridicule a company for attempting something new.
Every time anyone suggests a new way to solve a very real problem (Energy costs, Global Warming) the naysayers crawl out of the woodwork to start their attacks.
In the very near future the company will be releasing a public press packet and then we can get ready for the long list of you writing your apologies, RIGHT? (not!)
Not one of you has done any research into the folks behind this mission. Citizenre is not asking anyone for one single cent.
We are only asking folks to sign an intent to rent, then late 4th quarter, or 2008 we should be ready to install PV systems with the help of franchises across the country. At that time, we ask for a small deposit on the equipment that collects interest and is returned at the end of the rental contract, 1 or 5 or 25 years.
Yes, I am a customer and an Ind. Ecopreneur, but I've done my research.
Just because a company uses Network Marketing does not qualify them as a scam. Prepaid Legal is a 30 year old, publicly traded company on the NYSE and has used N.M. since the start, I suppose that makes them a scam too?
I guess the quote "Mediocrity always attacks Excellence' holds true.
Time will tell all, I for one withold judgement of things I don't understand until all the facts are known, and that's coming soon.
Best regards to everyone,
DC Miller
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dcmille290 Posted 10:15 pm
12 Mar 2007
Eco Boulder Citizenre Proof by Negation
This may be of some help, lots of good research and company bios here;
http://ecoboulder.blogspot.com/2007/02/citizenre-proof-by ...
D Miller
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SirOsisOfLiver Posted 10:15 pm
12 Mar 2007
DC Miller isn't telling you everything.
DC Miller is not telling the whole truth. The "Catch" is a $500 deposit that is due upon the approval of the engineering design. That is right - BEFORE any equipment shows up at your door. Below is a section of their agreement pulled directly from their customer registration site.
This is nothing but a scam. You do the math - $500 per person, 5000 deposits = $2.5 million. These guys are going to take a nice ride on a bunch of blind hopeful people. There is much to be said for "If it sounds too good to be true ..."
(This pulled from CitizenRE's customer registration page)
7.2. Security Deposit
A Security Deposit is required of the Customer upon approval of the REnU's engineering design. The Security Deposit is $500 for all REnU systems with a nameplate capacity of 5 KWp DC or less, and for REnU systems with a nameplate capacity larger than 5 KWp DC it is $500 plus 10 cents per Wp DC for every Wp DC greater than 5 KWp DC. --snip--
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caniscandida Posted 10:45 pm
12 Mar 2007
the bees' knees; Gristmill's researches
Thanks, A. Siegel, for the link to the very interesting, and depressing, but charmingly written series by Vince CA in Daily Kos, on bees. I am not quite sure why WiscIdea raised the subject, but it is obviously one that we ought to know about. I was happy to read something about native bees of the genus Osmia.
As for the effect of global warming on the lifecycles of plants and animals, we might predict that animals such as bees will adapt to remain in hibernation longer in spite of the warm-weather cues; and on the other hand, that plants will be prompted by early warm-weather cues to begin blooming earlier than is normal for them.
In defense of David Roberts' journalism, I think he and the other writers at Grist do an admirable job of exploring and researching interesting stories in countless places. I agree, one might have thought that DR would have judged the CitizenRe story to be of importance, and so it is surprising that it took him longer than others to get around to it.
But so what? That sort of thing happens in journalism all the time. E.g., the NYTimes's public editor, Byron Calame, was trying to make a brouhaha out of the Times's failure to follow up on the Washington Post's brilliant and sensational reporting about the Walter Reed Hospital scandal. He suggested that the explanation was chagrin: the Times hated admitting being scooped by its rival. But really, their own explanation makes perfect sense: all their Washington staff were already deeply engaged in researching other stories.
Chickens are our cousins! So are other sensitive animals! Enough is enough! No more factory farms!
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wiscidea Posted 11:13 pm
12 Mar 2007
caniscandida
Regarding my comment about bees... from the context of my remark, you might notice I was trying to be, for lack of a better phrase, rather snotty (strange term, but I think it is appropriate). But my effort was thwarted when A. Siegel politely replied. I apologize for the immaturity.
Lesson One:
Never underestimate the power of a polite person who responds with kindness when he/she encounters hostility.
Lesson Two:
I forgot what Lesson Two was... but I'm sure there was something I learned... besides a little more about bees.
Forward!
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A Siegel Posted 11:27 pm
12 Mar 2007
RE CandiceCandida ... DCMiller
CandiceCandida
My comment was in frustration because I come to Grist because they are, writ large, doing a good (very) good job.
Grist is on my 'blogroll'. I frequently send people to the Skeptics guide. Etc ... I agree with you.
Perhaps not as politely stated as it could have been but the point remains ... that hopefully can be a lesson for the future. A few seconds on Google and the controversy re CitizenRE would have been unveiled. That would have enabled a more nuanced comment about CitizenRE than what started off this line.
RE DCMiller --
There are serious implications, as per some of the points I made above, about what is going on with CitizenRE. As I wrote in my writeup, I hope it works -- I hope that every EcoPrenour ends up as a multimillionaire with CitizenRE solar panels covering every rooftop in site. That would be wonderful ... but there are serious questions about whether this dream can be realized. There is harm done by CitizenRE if it fails to deliver on its promises -- which is already occurring, as promised September 2007 deliveries are now being promised for??? 2008???? Again, SolarKismet's discussions are extremely good -- highly recommended. (And, both he and I have links to other discussions of CitizenRE.)
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caniscandida Posted 2:08 am
13 Mar 2007
politeness
Be of good cheer, WiscIdea. No one who writes to Gristmill is more charming and ingratiating than you. I understand exactly why you responded "snottily," as you say (though I would not put it like that), to an earlier comment. And now that you have shamefacedly apologized, for what you think was a failure of etiquette -- the sort of thing that I, heartless monster that I am, do all the time, laughing, without a trace of compunction -- , and have helped us learn a lesson or two along with you, we can now pick ourselves up and carry on.
On Grist, and reporting everything that ought to be reported: If our friends in Seattle do not think it would clog the works, they might encourage readers to send them references to new subjects, from not the standard sources, which they have not noticed. I was under the impression that readers already do that, in fact.
Chickens are our cousins! So are other sensitive animals! Enough is enough! No more factory farms!
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WWAGD?! Posted 2:14 am
13 Mar 2007
Puget Sound and Electric Should Do This
The funny part about it is that they then "charge you" for the electricity generated. I mean, basically, you give them the sunlight falling on your roof and they sell it back to you as electricity.
The Texeme Construct offers international text memetics construction and textcasting services. http://www.you-read-it-here-first.com
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Engineer Posted 4:43 am
13 Mar 2007
Why be skeptical?
Well, if you take this, file off the serial numbers and substitute 'solar' for the Hummingbird Free Energy Generator, the duck is still quacking (IE, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...) Draw your own conclusions.
They are promising delivery in one year (or less) from a factory that still not only hasn't been built, it doesn't have a location or a permit for construction, using an 'innovative' new process that is not in operation anywhere else in the world.
Etc.
Again, draw your own conclusions.
Common sense is an oxymoron...
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sunflower Posted 5:06 am
13 Mar 2007
Yes, it does not make any sense.
They could get much better return on investment on cheap desert land (plus trackers).
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dcmille290 Posted 11:12 pm
15 Mar 2007
Sense or Cents; too late to affect change.
I still don't understand the rush to judgement here. If they (Citizenre) succeed in actually helping homeowners upgrade to Solar, reduce the Carbon footprint for each home, rents the panels for the fixed cost of PV generation, sets up a network of support, installation and daily monitering, all for the price of a small deposit (usually $500, escrowed with interest) 5K system, what's the problem?
If they fail then all of you can say "I told you so" and sleep really well that night knowing you were right.
Maybe the fact that someone has finally decided to try and make a diference about a global problem all of us are responsible for, is just too much for you to wrap your mind around.
While many critics made fun of Edison for trying to create a light bulb, and failing 2000 times, he remarked " I haven't failed to create a light bulb 2000 times, I have discovered 2000 ways not to."
DC Miller
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ENVIROBRICKScom Posted 5:03 am
20 Mar 2007
Horse Before The Cart Scenario
Interesting,
No doubt this is a rather unusual offering, but heck, who makes an instant decision on anything involving an investment of thousands, so what is the harm to register and reserve a system when it is available?
Not the usual way of doing business, but being in a venture capital industry, I know investors often want to see proof of a viable marketing plan and demand for installations before they will release funds, so perhaps that is the scenario here.
With so little information available, and not even a plant which has broken ground, perhaps it would have been best to wait until that was at least started, or perhaps contracted before unleashing the hype associated with this offer. Bad strategy in my opinion, unless you look at it from companies viewpoint. Since no one is getting paid a dime until installation, company is getting a ton of free marketing and advertising from these so called ecopreneurs and most will be long gone a year from now, so company gets a huge jump at no cost to them. Sure makes the plan look better with no marketing expenses to deal with saving millions over conventional introduction of products or services.
Enviro-Bricks.com
www.PRIVACY-ADVOCATES.INFO
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ENVIROBRICKScom Posted 11:58 pm
08 Oct 2008
Citizenre fails to deliver anything in three years
Update:
Well, having registered a couple years ago, and watching, waiting and pressing for answers, it appears nothing has happened, just a bunch of false promises.
With current recession and banking and credit collapse, never mind oil price and energy costs having risen dramatically over the past couple years, it is ashame as the timing was perfect for solor industry growth. Now with energy rebates back on the table, it is sad that Citizenre has destroyed their credibility in the industry, and you only have one shot at making a good first impression.
Go Green
www.Mortgage-Free-Homes.com
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