In Checkout Line, Lou Bendrick cooks up answers to reader questions about how to green their food choices and other diet-related quandaries. Lettuce know what food worries keep you up at night.
Dear Checkout Line,
Any suggestions on how to ask local farmers (or the person selling the goods at the farmers' market who might not be the actual grower) if the produce was treated with Sevin or some other noxious but commonly used poison?
Pam Ruedige
Dear Pam,
A question about asking questions! How delightfully meta!
As you probably know, many small, local growers have neither the time nor money for organic certification. The good news is that they might very well be using sustainable, organic growing methods anyway. The bad news is that they might not, so we really do have to pipe up and ask questions. This is where things can get uncomfortable. In essence what we are asking is "Are you poisoning me?" And while food questions are not quite as loaded as "Are you still beating your wife?," the mere inference of wrongdoing might make a farmer a bit defensive.
Luckily, sensible and sensitive persons like you realize that how you ask is as important as what you ask! To help us approach such questions with finesse, I rang up Anna Post, none other than the great-great granddaughter of etiquette doyenne Emily Post.
"It's all about the how," Post told me. "That's why I have a job."
Luckily for all of us, Post is not only an author and spokesperson for the Emily Post Institute, but also a big-time fan of local organic food! She likes to put farmers at ease by simply saying, So tell me about your farm.
"Most people I found who participate in those kinds of good practices are very excited to talk to you about it," she says.
Indeed! But what if you, like me, are a fan of direct questions, such as "Is this stuff organic?"
"It's fine to ask the direct question," Post told me. "But your tone of voice will carry your intent. You can use a tone of voice that means that you are checking, rather accusatory."
"Be nice," Steve Sando agreed. "You have a right to know, but be nice."
Sando is the founder of Rancho Gordo, which specializes in New World (indigenous) food, especially sustainably grown heirloom beans. Sando is a regular at farmers' markets, where people often ask of his beans, Are these organic? In addition to being direct, this question can also be a bit, well, simplistic.
"I would love to talk about it, but people want a yes or no answer," he says. "It's not as simple as yes or no. Do you mean certified? Do you mean the way we grow it? "
So what's Sando's answer to the is-this-organic question?
"If people are nice, I talk to them about how they're grown," he admits. " If they're not nice -- and I can just tell -- then I just say no."
To sum: We all might do well by adopting an attitude of cheery, enthusiastic curiosity about our food lest we miss out on a heckuva interesting conversation with a farmer!
A few more suggestions: If the person selling the food isn't the grower and he or she can't answer your questions, get a phone number. Sando also advises that if the farmer is swamped (say, at a busy farmers' market) send them an email, call them or come when it's less busy.
That way both you and the farmer have the time for an unhurried conversation during which you both can listen and be heard. (If only life were always that way!) Because you are savvy enough to know about Sevin, a nasty pesticide, I'll assume you already have an arsenal of questions. But if you need a little help on what to ask, try this article.
For an excellent list of questions about dairy products and meat, check out the "Questions for a Farmer" Shopping Guide from the Sustainable Table.
Finally, if you are not satisfied with answers you get, here's how to make a gracious exit: You can say, "Okay, thanks, I'm going to look around," Post advises, or you can say "I'm sorry but I have a policy to buy organic -- let me know if you change."
I hope this helps, Pam!
With warm regards to you and yours,
Lou Bendrick
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Comments
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Wolverine Posted 2:59 am
23 Jul 2008
That issue aside, it's very important that farmers who grow organically get certified. The public has no way to know who's lying and who's telling the truth, nor should the burden be on people to hold an inquisition at every stand at a market. Certification is the only way to be sure the produce you're buying was actually grown organically.
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learsfool Posted 5:56 am
23 Jul 2008
I am a newspaper food writer. I got a call just today from a PR flack, a poor, well-meaning young woman, who wanted to pitch to me her firm's newest client, a maker of "organic water." I am sure it was "certified" "organic water." I usually try to be pleasant to PR flacks, telling them that our food page is recipe-driven and locally-focused, and we do not do product placement, but this time I had to tell her that I thought her product was patently phony. I also got a letter from a reader who found a packaged "organic" food product on the shelves at Whole Foods. The label said it was manufactured in China. The reader was properly, I think, skeptical of that "certification."
I guess I am spoiled. Louisville is in the middle of a wonderful local food revival. I can go to several different markets during the week, where the food is sold by the people who raise it. I talk to them. They have invited me to visit their farms. I have been to a couple. That is the way to know the provenance of your food. Read what Michael Pollan has to say about corporate organic food production in Omnivore's Dilemma, and then ask, what actually is involved in this "certification" process? Does the process favor corporate farms? How reasonable is it for a small family farmer to work through that process? And as you do, keep in mind that "organic water."
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Wolverine Posted 9:29 am
23 Jul 2008
First, being a reporter you should be precise about language. I never used the word "easy," I said I was told that "certification costs far less than the organic farming methods." And to answer your question, I was told this by a friend who works at a small, family owned and run organic winery and participates in the some aspects of grape growing. (Actually, the grapes are grown organically, but the wine contains sulfites, as almost all wines do, even ones that use organic grapes.)
Second, there are other organic certifications aside from the federal one. If a farmer doesn't want to deal with federal bureaucracy, (s)he can try for other, local certification. In California we have California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF) certification, and there are others.
Third, do you actually expect shoppers to visits all the farms from which they want to buy produce but that claim organic growing methods without organic certification? You got paid for going to farms; we would have to do it on our own time. Avoiding this is the whole idea of certification.
Fourth, of course getting certified is harder than not doing so; so is growing organic. But organic farmers are now getting premium prices for their produce, so it's just an investment.
Sorry, but I don't buy produce from people who merely claim that they grow it that way but that certification is too expensive. Unless they're certified, I have no way to know that they're not using the worst pesticides and chemical fertilizers.
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Erik Hoffner Posted 3:47 am
24 Jul 2008
Those conversations were my favorite thing about the markets, besides just having the opportunity to talk with someone other than my fellow crusty apprentices for a change.
Erik
The Orion Grassroots Network: supporting grassroots groups working for conservation, justice, & more
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Erik Hoffner Posted 3:53 am
24 Jul 2008
Erik
The Orion Grassroots Network: supporting grassroots groups working for conservation, justice, & more
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Tom Philpott Posted 4:05 am
24 Jul 2008
Victual Reality
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Storm Dragon Posted 7:44 am
24 Jul 2008
Let the jaguars return!
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Wolverine Posted 9:53 am
24 Jul 2008
More importantly, none of you have addressed the problem, which is significant, of dishonest farmers who claim to grow organically but don't. The most egregious example I can give you was a guy who said he "just" uses Roundup, but that Roundup is actually organic, so his grapes should be considered organic! But he was only one of many I've talked to who start out claiming that they use organic methods but can't afford certification or that it's too much of a hassle, then end up admitting that they use something(s) that the certification would not permit. And these are just the ones who end up admitting it; what about ones who lie outright? Again, we need certification.
Another problem, connected to the last one, is when most people are buying food, we don't have time to get into long discussions with every vendor about growing methods. I talk to farmers or vendors when I'm buying at markets, but I've learned that if the conversation starts out "Are you organic?" "Well, we're not certified but we're just as good" or something along those lines, it's going to be a long conversation.
Here's a good analogy: if you were stopped by a cop, asked for your driver's license, and said, "I don't have one, but I drive just as well as those who do. It's just too expensive and too much hassle to get a license," do you think that any reasonable cop would let you go? Or that any reasonable person would think that you could drive competently? This is the whole point of legally certifying things. We don't have time to check out every individual, and certification backed up by government standards tells us what we need to know.
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EnviroFan Posted 1:42 pm
24 Jul 2008
Costs to become certified organic vary by certifier. All certifiers receive training and forms, etc, from the National Organic Program, which allows these businesses then to certify specific farms. To say that a state has 'tough' organic standards is kind of trash because they all require multi-year transitional periods (3) before they are allowed to become certified organic unless the land they are desiring to certify has laid unused for at least 3 years prior.
The cost of growing organic is typically about the same as growing conventionally. While the cost of inputs (pesticides, fertilizers, etc) is greater for conventional farms, the increased cost of labor on organic farms tends to even this difference out.
The cost of getting certified is a different story. Normal application forms are 20-30 pages long and require serious time investments from the farmers. Growing organic also requires intense record keeping (your records should be checked by the certifier, so it's important to have them in order) about your operation. The steps of filling out this application often take a few weeks to get together. If we're talking about opportunity cost as it applies to organics, combined with the cost of actually getting certified, you're starting to look at a higher bill than I think you believe yet. The base fee for the best certifier (personal opinion) in Ohio (where I am) is $600 plus potential travel expenses for the certifying agent.
Your friend sounds like they're lucky and are able to dedicate the time and funds to making it happen. Personally, I agree with you about the "dishonest" farmers, but I haven't met many of those. I feel like if you are educated about what you desire, it is like those above discussed: The ones practicing organics are MORE than willing to tell you about it. I do work with a number of very small farmers (5 acres or less) who simply don't feel that taking the time or money away from the farm to get certified is worth it. There's a number of those who actually are far beyond organic standards. Other farmers of their size in my region do go ahead and get the certification. It's a personal choice, and it's an economic choice, at least here in Ohio.
I hope that helped answer your questions.
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dandel Posted 3:21 am
25 Jul 2008
A) eventually admit that the farm uses harmful chemicals, or
B) be lying, if they claim to use organic methods.
Seems like a pretty pessimistic view to me. If you're more comfortable sticking solely with certified organics, that's your choice. But at least be open to the idea that lots of non-certified, organic farms can and do exist, for any of the reasons that other posters have mentioned (cost, time, size, etc).
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medowlrk Posted 6:35 am
25 Jul 2008
I like customers to ask about how I raise my livestock. It lets me know they are not just looking at price or selection. Organic is a "yes or no". "Sustainable" is a conversation that more accurately reflects the truth. If you are going to ask the question, be ready for a big answer. For example, I don't certify my livestock because I am selling directly to the person who is buying it. I can explain, or in an hour's drive, they can see my practices for themselves. I have nothing to hide. I'd be wary of someone who does.
Organic certification is very expensive and the market has to be worth it or has to demand it (as in the case of selling to wholesalers or someone other than the final customer.) Organic is really just a short-cut answer. It addresses some questions about chemical use, but doesn't mean sustainability, or the farmer's attitude toward supporting their community and other more far-reaching issues.
And I don't certify because organic feed is a huge issue. It is either very expensive or not available. It is more important to me that I buy my hay from my neighbor and my poultry feed from the neighborhood mill. Buying organic feed from a stranger isn't supporting my community. Do I wish I had access to organic feed? yes Can I grow it?no, not enough land.
If you are going to ask a farmer about their practices, make sure you ask near the end of the market----we have time then. I don't have time for a good answer when there are 5 people in line behind you. Be ready to spend some time in discussion. Farmers like to know their customers are interested. Don't be afraid to recommend books and articles to the farmer. I'm always grateful to folks who want to help.
Phone calls and emails are okay, but nothing beats face-to-face at the market. I actually have more time at the end of the market than I do during the rest of the week.
Just remember, everyone has their own concepts of what is best for their farm, best for the earth, and best for themselves. Unless we talk about it, we won't know what each other thinks.
J. Burns, Idaho
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cookieroscoe Posted 2:24 am
02 Aug 2008
That story is just the tip of the mountain. The concepts at the heart of organic are treating the land and those who work it fairly. You simply can't certify that. I loathe that my city neighbours can feel justified in buying "organic" cheerios at the local big box when those cheerios were grown on indigenous people's lands which they were kicked off of because a multinational corporation saw an opportunity to get some pesticide-free-for-5-years property into it's portfolio so that picky North American consumers can buy "certified".
It's not impossible to talk to vendors, like the post right before this one from an Idaho farmer, who makes so much sense. Simplify what you eat, and you'll find the job easier. You'll be a great deal better off for it, too.
I have farmers bringing produce to my market who are farming the same land that was cleared by their great great grandfathers. They would no more put pesticides on their land than you or I would on our toast. Certified Organic? No thank you, they've seen fads come and go before. They'll be farming their land with clear consciences long after we've dropped this ball of conversation, heaven willing.
Market Managaer, GreenBarn Market.
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John former Marine Posted 3:14 am
02 Aug 2008
Integrated Pest Management - IPM - is probably a better system for managing pests. And IPM can be used in conventional situations. I've been through "conventional" blueberry fields that were only sprayed once in over five years. Now, that particular farmer probably could've gone through the effort to become "organic" but since he's not really using chemicals anyways, why waste his time?
Also, the way pesticides are regulated, they have to first be registered with the EPA (a long, complex process which involves a lot of well-connected consultants) and then registered in each state that they're going to be used in. When a pesticide is registered, it's limited for use on only a limited number of crops. So if you're growing a specialty crop, for example, it may be incredibly expensive to get a pesticide you can use, either organic or conventional. Corn, for example, covers so many acres and is such a valuable crop that many companies have gone through the trouble to develop and register lots of chemicals for use on corn. But take something like horseradish...one single field of about 200 acres produces enough horseradish to meet market demands for all 300 million of us in this country. It's not an incredibly valuable crop, obviously, so if there were some new pest introduced into the horseradish crop and there wasn't a registered organic pesticide approved for use on horseradish, that farmer would be up the creek if he was "organic." In fact, even if there isn't a conventional chemical approved, he's still going to lose his crop. So the process of registering pesticides is one of the problems here, although I'd argue it's a very necessary hurdle to ensure the safety of the food supply. Not that USDA, FDA, and EPA have been doing the best job...but they do their best with the resources available and within the current political context.
Il faut cultiver notre jardin.
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Goldilox Posted 12:59 am
20 Aug 2008
If it is too much trouble for you or not worth your time to care about talking to who grew your food about how it was grown, and if you feel the Certified Organic label is a quick and sure fire way to get organic, healthy food, then you shouldn't be wasting your time at farmers markets, unless this is the only stop you make for food. Since you are clearly missing the point of a farmers market, that of getting to know how and where your food is grown by the person(s) that grew it, stay out of the way of the rest of us who give a care about that kind of thing and buy certified organic at the grocery store with the rest of the drones. If you ever took the time to read the NOP rules and regulations, you'll find there a framework far removed from the original spirit of the NOP. This all brought to you buy your apparent heros, industrialized "organic" agriculture.
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