Umbra on live trapping 28

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1. 

   Moondust Posted 3:27 am
   03 Oct 2007

   Relocating unwanted animalsMice might survive if relocated, but more mice in the new location will eventually cause more mice in the original location, and you'll constantly be transporting mice.  Try an electrocution trap - very quick and humane.
   What I really feel strongly about is that people also "relocate" puppies and kittens (i.e. dump them) because they don't want to take the responsibility to kill them or take them to animal control, where they will most likely be euthanized.  Recently 5 puppies were "relocated" to a rural area near my home.  When I saw them, two of the puppies had already been smashed in the road by cars.  The other three were running along the side of the road but disappeared into the field before I could try to catch them.  I'm sure they became coyote dinner that night.  Humane death is usually preferable to relocation, in my opinion.

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2. 

   meadow20 Posted 3:41 am
   03 Oct 2007

   reason not to killI live in NM and in addition to the real possibility of hanta virus which is spread by mouse droppings, there is also the potential for mice to be carrying bubonic plague. This is spread by fleas. If the mouse dies in your house, when the body temperature drops, all those fleas will jump off and look for a new host- maybe you!
   
     I don't mind relocating rodents even if they have a tough time. You could look at it like a juvenile raptor supplemental feeding program. Yes it may be harsh, but that is life for mice in the wild- relocated or not.

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3. 

   Schrmin Posted 6:01 am
   03 Oct 2007

   Electrocution?"Try an electrocution trap - very quick and humane"
   ...because we all know how quick and humane execution in an electric chair is.

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4. 

   askantik Posted 6:04 am
   03 Oct 2007

   We have no right to kill them...Mice were here long before we were.  They didn't ask us to come and build our behemoth structures in their native lands, yet we did it any way.  When we don't close all the gaps in our homes, they advance inside, just like they would in any other territory.  They're looking for food and warmth.  
   It's our responsibility to keep them out, not their responsibility to stay out-- therefore, we shouldn't kill them.  They are only doing what comes naturally.  And if killing little mice comes naturally to you, maybe something's wrong with you.
   Just about every wild animal can cause disease.  This should be obvious.  As for "quick and humane," death is not humane.  Humane means to treat something (say, an animal) as you would a human.  You'd never catch a human in an electrocution trap.  Likewise, "local happy animal-loving farm-raised" meat is not humaen.  Death is death.  Killing, by definition, cannot be humane.  

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5. 

   rhkennerly Posted 7:25 am
   03 Oct 2007

   Oh, goodan other city person wanting to dump all their strays out in the country--like we didn't have enough of your stray cats, dogs, racoons, and children running around here.

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6. 

   rivergal Posted 7:53 am
   03 Oct 2007

   Respect for the interdependent web . . .As both a UU and a biologist, I agree with Umbra that Didi did the right thing.  It should be obvious that there's a huge difference between relocating/dumping surplus pet carnivores like dogs and cats in natural areas, and relocating the odd native mouse or two.  Dumped pets will have a tough go of it, and if they survive it may be at the expense of local prey, reducing the food supply for native predators. The mouse is already part of the local ecosystem and will likely either survive for a year or two or become food for an owl or weasel. This is better for the "interdependent web of all existence" than is flushing a mouse carcass down the toilet or burying it in a landfill.
   BTW, rhkennerly, the town of Harvard MA is pretty rural (it's not the same place as Cambridge, where Harvard University is located).  And, Umbra, most UUs don't believe in heaven.  Furthermore, while we love talking to our ministers, we don't expect them to tell us what to believe, theologically speaking -- instead we rely on our own "free and responsible search for truth and meaning."  I.e., we're empowered to make rational, science-based decisions.

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7. 

   Wild Flora Posted 8:00 am
   03 Oct 2007

   There's a third option, and it's betterForced to choose between relocating an animal and killing it, most of us would probably choose the former. But a strictly utilitarian approach would probably require us to take the second option: If you consider which option is likely to cause the least suffering to the least number of beings (the utilitarian approach), you're probably going to decide that it's better to cause momentary suffering (death) to one animal than to cause extended suffering (long period of stress with possibility of disease, injury, or death) to many animals.
   Fortunately, we usually don't have to make this difficult choice. This is what the Humane Society of the United States says in its book Wild Neighbors: The Humane Approach to Living with Wildlife (Fulcrum, 1997): "It is the position of The HSUS that the vast majority of wildlife conflict situations can be resolved by simpler, more humane means than by removing an animal from its natural home area or by destroying it."
   Most of the HSUS's excellent book is devoted to ways of humanely evicting wild animals from structures and then making sure that they can't get back in. Exclusion (as opposed to translocation) can take time, effort, and money, but the investment pays for itself in long-term results and a clear conscience.
   Wild Flora
   
   http://www.wildgardeners.blogspot.com

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8. 

   merrykays Posted 10:14 am
   03 Oct 2007

   Live tappingI live in a rural area and it's clear to me we do not need to have any more urbanites relocating here.  
   I have two cats.  They take care of my problems with mice.  We have a "Don't ask; Don't tell" policy.
   Perhaps the sanctuary should have a cat?
   merry

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9. 

   Gene Posted 4:33 pm
   03 Oct 2007

   rodentspositively mind boggling when people labor over how to keep removal of rodents pain free.  The zapper traps I use are electrocution.  Knowing every hour they have produced another huge "bundle of Joy,"  it's hard to shed a tear for rats and mice.  I'm sorry, maybe I'm just not evolved enough but around my family they are the first to go.  
       I relocate squirrels to the tune of 100 a year.  My animal loving neighbor who spreads feed 365 days a year on the ground for whatever animal to eat has helped promote rampant growth of dangerous populations of rats, squirrels, mice and crows.  I cannot empathize with most of the responses.  Sorry.  

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10. 

    FourLocks Posted 10:32 pm
    03 Oct 2007

    Let's be a little objective, hereThere are way too many of us humans building nice warm structures and throwing out mega-tons of garbage so we have completely thrown the "balance of nature" out of whack, in the case of mice, crows, squirrels, raccoons, etc. who've learned to occupy our artificially created niche.  There's no ecological reason not to kill a mouse invading our home; they're certainly not an endangered species.  It's also nice to say we should "deny mice food or entrance to our homes" but mice have very flexible skeletons and can fit through a 1/4 inch opening so that strategy won't work.  Aside from a personal moral dilemma about killing in general, there's absolutely no reason not to kill a mouse that's, essentially, competing with us for our food and harborage while supporting disease-carrying parasites.  I choose to "relocate" rodents but in the full knowledge that I'm probably providing dinner for a local raptor; a least the mouse's nuitrients are recycled back into the environment, that way.
    Agonizing over the death of a mouse is as logical as worrying about the demise of the disease-carrying insects the mouse hosts.  Do the "holier-than-thou" people bemoaning our use of mouse traps feel the same about killing a flea, tick or mosquito?

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11. 

    Elsa Mary Posted 10:54 pm
    03 Oct 2007

    get some cats for the churchThere would be less mice if there were more mammals to eat them. Transport the mice for now, but then add some cats to the grounds and let the problem take care of itself naturally and gradually. But oops, then I guess some people would accuse you of cruelty if you let the cats go outside.

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12. 

    marymaide Posted 11:24 pm
    03 Oct 2007

    Do try a cat.merrykays is right! A cat is the answer.
    We live in a (still semi-) rural hamlet, where the farm houses (farmers have cats!) and other houses with cats are the ones without the autumn rodent problems.
    Generally, the cat odor seems to do the trick. (Otherwise put, those rodents not bright enough to smell "cat" had defective genes, anyway.)
    Mightn't having a cat be the answer for your congregation? You could avoid all sorts of heated and solveable disputes - and have a furry, friendly greeter to add to your sense of community.
    mary

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13. 

    kkjg Posted 1:46 am
    04 Oct 2007

    ultrasonic mice repellersYou can buy little electronic devices that emit a sound that will drive rodents away. They sell them at hardware stores. We have used them over the years and work well.

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14. 

    LandMan Posted 2:12 am
    04 Oct 2007

    Enviromentalism and Animal RightsThis seems to be quite an issue; with PETA saying you can't be a meat-eating environmentalist, and others saying you can't be an environmentalist without making the hard choice to use eradication of introduced animal species as a tool to fix the huge ecological damage problem that they cause.
    Is there really a humane way to solve this problem?
    Because of our collective actions free roaming cats are killing over 2 billion small animals (including half a billion birds)a year, feral hogs are completely denuding woodlands of vegetaion, the nest predating cow birds have expanded their range and are wiping out the birds the cats have missed, thousands of 15 foot pythons are upsetting the natural system in the Everglades,pouch rats the size of raccoons have invaded the Florida Keys, exotic fish are destroying the productivity and diversity of our lakes and wetlands, and the list goes on and on and on.
    The problem is on the order of hunderds of millions of problematic species living here now. What do we do about it? Sit back and watch the natural system be devoured? Kill Millions of animals that are just trying to live life the only way they know how? Biological warfare? Something else?
    
    

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15. 

    LandMan Posted 4:50 am
    04 Oct 2007

    that's a lot of speciesCorrection: I meant hundreds of millions of individual animals that are members of a problematic species in the above post, not hundreds of millions of species. Still a big problem though.

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16. 

    Steve Erickson Posted 3:40 pm
    04 Oct 2007

    Humane considerationsLets's consider the various risk factors here.
    
    *Kill the mice (which are actually probably European non-natives).
    
    They die fast and then become foodstock in the chain of life.  If you're really good at case skinning (as my partner is), they make wonderful finger puppets - they're really cute with the whiskers still on. Just be careful about fleas.  Kids love 'em.
    *Transport them out-of-sight and out-of-mind. After all, if you don't know, then you're not responsible.
    
    They possibly transport diseases to infect others.
    
    They compete with  other organisms that are already there that occupy the same or overlapping niche/trophic level.
    
    The increased population puts more stress on the resources (i.e. the things they eat) and the organisms that are already there that eat the same stuff, use the same housing, etc.
    
    The little meeces may make a nice snack for a hawk or an owl.
    
    They may be dropped off where the species isn't currently established and establish a new population. I hear rats and European house mice don't occur in Anarctica - yet.
    Umbra:
    
    Yoy may win points with the PETA crowd, but this ecologist gives you an F in environmental conservation and comprehension. If you visit Florida, I do hope you don't have an unfortunate encounter with an 18 foot Burmese Python - but it really was cute when it was small!  

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17. 

    amc89 Posted 6:51 am
    05 Oct 2007

    fur trapping, cats, invasive species and livestockOne macro-solution is that we should stop trapping and killing so many predators for the fur trade. The use of cruel traps such as the steel-jaw leghold trap to catch mice predators such as foxes such is still allowed in most states.  More foxes and other small predators equals less mice.  
    If you choose to get some cats for the church, the best way to go about it is to adopt (preferably an adult, since they're the hardest to adopt out) from your local animal shelter and make sure they are spayed, nuetered and micro-chipped.
    Invasive species to be the most concerned about: cattle and other livestock (because of the greenhouse gases like methane they emit, the land they erode and damage, the native ungulates they displace, their manure that pollutes our waterways, etc). So I hope all you folks going on about non-native species are vegetarian.

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18. 

    amc89 Posted 7:40 am
    05 Oct 2007

    exotic wildlife as petsTo Steve E and Land Man-Many of the exotic wildlife species causing problems in Florida and other states are there because people purchased exotic wildlife as pets and then dediced it was too much trouble to care for them. And it's the animal protection groups that you seem to dislike so much that are at the forefront of campaigning to end the trade in wild animals as pets.
    Visit:
    
    Captive Wild Animal Protection Coalition (CWAPC)
    
    http://www.cwapc.org
    Also, a number of invasive wildlife species in America are here because hunters, those most dedicated of "environmentalists," released them for prey many years ago.  

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19. 

    Annie Rosenthal Posted 3:02 pm
    05 Oct 2007

    trapping miceI think that letting mice loose is neither more humane, nor more ecologically sound.  There are several humane ways to euthanize mice. CO2 (dry ice) asphyxiation is easy on both the animal and the person performing the euthanasia.  The best way to keep the mice away is to get a cat.  

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20. 

    Des Emery Posted 11:16 am
    06 Oct 2007

    Umbra and her miceKilling something that is alive can never be "humane."  Except, perhaps, someone who doesn't agree with you politically.  Even as simple a thing as a carrot is said to shriek piteously when it is yanked mercilessly from the ground.  Just ask Bugs Bunny.
    As far as Umbra's mice are concerned, in order to preserve the balance of nature, she should take them to her nearest KFC and toss them into the deep fryer along with the other battered animal parts and thus put them back into "The Circle of Life" where they would help feed the hungry of the world.  What you can't see can't hurt you. After all, what's grist for my mill is grist for yours.

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21. 

    Whiskerfish Posted 11:33 pm
    06 Oct 2007

    Ecologically-UNsound advice, UmbraDear me, you really have slipped up this time.
    In most parts of the world, mice in houses are non-native species. Relocating them into the 'wild' could have a number of outcomes:
    
    
    New invasive population to compete with native mice
    Introduction of new diseases to wild rodent population
    Mice stressfully starve due to lack of knowledge of new territory or lack of food in new territory etc.
    
    
    The only winners in the relocation scenario are the egos of the soft-headed individuals who think they're doing the right thing, and who want to pass the buck on killing the critters to preserve their own ecologically-unwise worldviews. The carbon emissions from driving into the countryside to perform the release would outweigh any advantage gained by the preservation of a few individuals of such fast-breeding species, even if they were native and desireable.
    In the short term: Kill em humanely WITHOUT POISONS (which kill owls etc. as they go up the food chain) - snap traps work well. Use peanut butter or tomato as bait.
    In the long term: Close up holes and don't leave food lying around. If there's nothing to eat they won't come.
    Cheers
    Whiskerfish

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22. 

    banana republican Posted 3:03 am
    07 Oct 2007

    see what they are firstMy live trap (occasionally placed in the yard if we've got rodents near the house)has been catching a number of short-tailed shrews. Generally, I let them stick around if they haven't tunnelled into the flower garden too thoroughly. We've never had a problem with actual mice here - probably because shrews can be predators of mice.
    
    That said, I've relocated a few. Generally, any rodent relocated is likely hawk food.
    If they're moles, be careful where you relocate them too (nobody wants them nearby). Shrews, on the other hand, are usually less noticeable. Meadow voles, other voles, and peromyscus mice (deer mice and white footed mice, both of which can spread hantavirus) make up a very large share of the diet in winter for most owls.
    
    Of course, there's always a few weird things that can turn up - for example, meadow jumping mice (zapus hudsonius), which look like a skinny gerbil. They're widespread, but not particularly common.
    Generally anything trapped inside a house will be peromyscus mice. Meadow voles have been known to enter houses, but usually leave on their own within days. If it's all grey, it's probably a house mouse (Nonnative) - if it's white underneath and brown above with some darker markings, it's more likely a deer or a white-footed mouse.
    I think people would be surprised how much of their local rodent populations is native. The fact that local native rodents have such a high reproductive rate makes many less apt to be outcompeted by introduced species (with the exception of those requiring specialized habitat, like pocket gophers, jumping mice, and woodrats).
    Of course, if you're trapping rats, the reverse is true. Rats aren't easy to catch, and most aren't native. DO NOT release them elsewhere, as many of them are causing harm to the environment and are introduced species.

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23. 

    pelagicrabbit Posted 2:35 pm
    07 Oct 2007

    Moral mandate to not help spread diseaseIn the American West, releasing mice to a new location may very well spread deadly diseases like Bubonic Plague and Hanta Virus to new populations where they infect and kill other animals and people. How is that ever a good idea?
    
    Even if you are not in the West, how can it a good idea? Every species has pockets of disease and sickness and as a result, it is almost always bad to plunk individuals down where they can infect others or where they have no immunity to local germs.
    
    As much as some may argue that we have no right to kill, we have no right to assist a sick animal in infecting other animals or people, either.
    
    

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24. 

    paulukon Posted 12:08 am
    08 Oct 2007

    The problem with cats....I love the idea of adding some cats to the mix. Unfortunately, however, unless they were taught as kittens how to kill a mouse it might not work very well. We've had three cats in our house. And more mice than that. (About 2-3 per year that we see.) One cat mostly ignored them. The other two will stalk the mouse but have never killed one. They bat at it, chase it, corner it, and only once or twice even put their mouth around it.
    They do at least alert us to their presence so that my husband and I can try to kill the mouse.
    Unless you get a cat that is a known mouser, don't bother. It might work better to pick up some farm cats that are experienced, but you might have other problems then (such as being used to being outdoor cats).

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25. 

    cmalberg Posted 2:08 am
    09 Oct 2007

    meowI agree with all those below who said to get a cat. It doesn't really get much easier or more natural than that. Realistically, all you are doing by moving the mice to rural areas is exposing them to dangers such as raptors, coyotes, and an increasing number of feral cats and dogs. Go down to the local shelter and adopt a couple cats. If they aren't already, get the cats spayed/neutered. Two birds with one stone, as they say.

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26. 

    sherrieh Posted 5:09 am
    10 Oct 2007

    Her friend is rightIt is illegal to relocate wild animals in Massachusetts.  I'd go with the ultrasonic deterrent.

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27. 

    slingshot Posted 7:03 am
    10 Oct 2007

    They just come back...Just how it's better to teach a man to fish than give hime food, you need to find the root of the problem, not band-aid the symtom.
    Figure out where they are coming in and block it up. Use steel wool or metal, they won't eat through it. Take things away from walls and up off the ground. You see old cabinets and wonder why they had a foot of clearance under them.... that's why.
    They hate the smell of peppermint-though you may as well after a while.
    if you kill the mice, they'll just come back and you have to kill more. karma.
    
     

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28. 

    duhkoz Posted 1:39 pm
    11 Oct 2007

    Where to relocate vermin?Personally, I like to leave them off in a gated community--the food's better there.

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