• Detroit: It’s still around, and as long as the feds continue to give transit short-shrift, we’ll be driving and bailing for years to come. But in honor of our societal shift toward fuel efficiency, the automakers have some brand new electric vehicles and hybrids they have been showing off this week at the North American International Auto Show, Jan. 11-25.
From the third-generation Prius to the Dodge Circuit to the Mini E, talk of fuel efficiency and battery-life replaced praise for horsepower and chrome. Thank goodness for the 505-horsepower Revenge GTM-R or we might confuse ourselves and our cars with those subdued European models.
While electric vehicles stole the auto show, Toyota’s executive vice president, Masatami Takimoto, said in an interview with the New York Times that Toyota would produce a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle by 2015. GM’s lead engineer on the Volt also thinks Hydrogen is the fuel of the future—I guess he hasn’t read Joseph Romm’s opinions on the matter. GM’s Larry Burns, vice president of research and development and strategic planning, thinks Toyota has a lock on hybrids and that the Americans need to “change the game,” but he didn’t specify if that meant a focus on hydrogen.
From Jan. 17-25, NAIAS will be open to the public. If you live in Detroit, don’t miss these 10 vehicles of interest, as advised by Mark Phelan of the Detroit Free Press, and when else will you take an i-Miev for an EcoExperience 10-mph test-drive a la Michigan Economic Development Corporation?
(Side note: Jalopnik nearly ran into the Sen. Bob “I’m against the bailout plan” Corker (R-Tenn.) in their little electric mobile command center. You can—hee hee—watch the video here.)
In other news ...
• Like Israel, Denmark, Australia, California, and Hawaii before it, the city of Ontario, Canada, will now be a Better Place.
• Ferrari is now offering research grants for automotive technology that reduces vehicle weight and CO2 emissions.
• Because GMAC received money from TARP, Chrysler Financial screamed “competitive disadvantage” and wrangled $1.5 billion from Treasury Secretary Paulson’s bailout stash.
• The Secret Service released photos of President-elect Barack Obama’s inaugural limo. Speculation as to whether Limo Force One is a clean diesel has been squelched by both GM and the Secret Service because of security concerns.
• Speaking inaugurally, Plug In America didn’t get their float in the Inaugural Parade, so they made their own. Saturday morning, the Inauguration Parade West—consisting of over 70 plug-in vehicles—will glide through the city streets of sunny Santa Monica, Calif. The festivities start at 9:00 a.m. at the Santa Monica Civic Center.
Do we need nuclear and coal plants for baseload power?
Cash for Clunkers brought us ... more clunkers!
Comments
View as Flat
racc Posted 5:06 pm
16 Jan 2009
At change.gov, people are all over rail and transit, not electric cars.
More at: http://everyoneforever.org/blogger/
It is not about us, it is about everyone.
http://www.everyoneforever.org/
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Bob Wallace Posted 6:02 pm
16 Jan 2009
BYD's bringing us a $22k one.
Think that won't be attractive to folks who commute <40 miles a day and get tired of paying gas bills?
Wouldn't you rather plug in when you're in your nice dry garage as opposed as getting out in the cold rain to pump?
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amazingdrx Posted 12:41 am
17 Jan 2009
Did Toyota have the 962 pound, Prius sized, 600 mile range (on a battery charge and 4 gallons of gas), 1/X concept car, there? Notice how this article deletes any mention of the plugin hybrid nature of the 1/X?
Toyota will display a battery powered electric vehicle at the Detroit auto show next month, as well as the third-generation Toyota Prius.
Have they killed this design in favor of hydrogen in 2015?
The 1/X like the RMI Hypercar is a big threat to big oil. And to any auto company that sells gas guzzlers.
This could signal a big lobbyist push back against any obama administration policies favoring carbon fiber/plastic body plugin hybrids.
The Hypercar design thrweatens big oil, big steel, and big auto. And big coal. Plugin hybrids can serve as storage for wind and solar power, displacing coal.
Battery mass production threatens all fossil fuel and centralized power grid interests. I see no notice of the 1/X appearing at Detroit on google news. This is the time the media should be spotlighting this technology. It's the key to killing the planet killing energy economy we are slaves to now.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Pompey Road Posted 12:43 am
17 Jan 2009
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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Bob Wallace Posted 1:00 am
17 Jan 2009
Could we have pushed the development of "exotic" batteries? Possibly some. But don't forget that there has been huge demand for better cell phone/laptop batteries and plenty of money has been spent to produce those batteries. That technology is the same as electric car technology.
Is there some great desire on the part of current car manufacturers to keep producing ICE engines and cause us all to burn lots of petroleum? Can't imagine why. What those folks want to do is to sell units. They don't care what powers their products, just that people buy what they make.
(Check with your doctor, X. Your anti-conspiracy meds seem to need a bit of adjustment. ;o)
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biodiversivist Posted 4:20 am
17 Jan 2009
Now that is what I call innovative and exciting...
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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ferrarimanf355 Posted 5:03 am
17 Jan 2009
I can tell sarcasm from a mile away, and that is a big bowl of Not Funny. I don't want to live in a world with this as high-performance.
http://jalopnik.com/5133009/nats-gt+k-horrifying-kei-car- ...
Yes, I want a big honkin' muscle car, and no, I do not care about the mileage, and if the eco-fascists come to my house ready to crucify me because I have the gall to enjoy the drive, I'll be at the door yelling, "molon labe"- come and take them.
Leave the high-po cars alone.
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biodiversivist Posted 5:30 am
17 Jan 2009
What is cool is dictated by social norms, not by some intrinsic universal law of coolness. It's a mental image carried around in our heads. Many people lock in to what was cool when they were adolescents and stick with it their entire lives, as if only one kind of music or car is cool. Someday, there will be octogenarian rappers.
It can be an accurate image of what is cool at a given time and place or inaccurate and in need of an update. Muscle cars are cool in some circles in a retro kind of way, but were once much coveted status symbols.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Angelsnecropolis Posted 8:02 am
17 Jan 2009
And the reason why people keep talking about Hydrogen is because it's easy to sell Hydrogen at the pump whereas anyone can plug in their car at home. But the oil industry doesn't want a shift away from using gas stations. So if they can convert a gas station to a hydrogen station then they can keep their money rolling in.
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Bob Wallace Posted 11:10 am
17 Jan 2009
I suspect you're correct. There is a great inefficiency involved with the distribution, transportation, and storage of hydrogen. And money to be made off each enterprise.
Electric power uses existing distribution lines and by hooking up our personal transportation to the grid even provide needed storage back to the grid.
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ferrarimanf355 Posted 11:39 am
17 Jan 2009
This is the sort of shaming that's depressing. Why should you guys really care what I want if it makes me happy? This must be the same people with the attention span of a gnat on the Huffington Post who were praising Ford on the mileage of the Fusion Hybrid one day and lynching them the next day for having the gall to build the Mustang Shelby GT500.
And I know that a combination of choking-bad CAFE regulations, smog regulations and cash-for-clunkers will be enough to kill anything remotely resembling fun. I know they're going to try.
"Just swap out the high powered gas engine for a high powered electric engine."
Oh come on, it's not the same without a defining engine note. And it's probably going to be heavy as hell.
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spaceshaper Posted 12:44 pm
17 Jan 2009
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.
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amazingdrx Posted 2:59 pm
17 Jan 2009
Oh you can't imagine?
"... the oil industry doesn't want a shift away from using gas stations."
The oil, auto, steel, coal, nuclear industries are run by a web of wealthy individuals. The bottomline of these industries depends upon staying with the status quo energy economy. No conspiracy necessary.
Any conspiracy is in your mind alone Bob.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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amazingdrx Posted 3:21 pm
17 Jan 2009
We only need mass production. The Toyota 1/X and the RMI Hypercar, without the computers, bells, amd whistles will fill the bill.
Just the ultralight carbon fiber with plugin hybrid design. We already have good enough, cheap enough mass produced batteries to get a 40 mile plugin range.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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human power Posted 3:21 pm
17 Jan 2009
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avisvulgaris Posted 3:34 pm
17 Jan 2009
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Bob Wallace Posted 10:52 pm
17 Jan 2009
We're getting ~40 mile electric range PHEVs. That we can apparently do with the batteries we have now and with the manufacturing processes we have now.
People are (IMHO) going to love electric. Lots of people will rarely stop at the pumps. Only for that once in a while long weekend trip or vacation.
Then they'll start asking for more electric range. Unless there's a big breakthrough in batteries the way to get more range is to drastically cut vehicle weight. And at that point will large car manufacturers consider a massive retooling to make vehicles with significantly less metal and more lightweight synthetics.
Now, as for that little group of super-uber-rich folks who run anything. Sorry, that's some sort of crackpot thinking. Ownership of big oil and big car and big whatever is spread over a vast number of owners. The hired help, the car CEOs will cut the gas CEO's throats if it improves their companies bottom line and the value of their stock futures.
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Bob Wallace Posted 11:40 pm
17 Jan 2009
Zero to 60 3.2 seconds.
All electric Tesla Roadster
Zero to 60 3.0 seconds.
And costs $35,000 less.
The internal combustion engine is so, last century....
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Pompey Road Posted 1:00 am
18 Jan 2009
An over the top electric car for the nouveau riche that will only be a small part of the Electric car segment would be good advertisement for the electric car segment. I could only dream about that 63 split window vette back in the day while driving a 4 cyl. Chevy II. All matter of electric automobiles will be run up the flag pole by Detroit and Japan, the hope would be that they can build one affordable and practical enough for the common man that has a long shelf life.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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amazingdrx Posted 2:35 am
18 Jan 2009
CEOs can't be fired by shareholders, only board members. Board members on the GM board are buddies/relatives and classmates of the exxonmob board members.
Google it up Bob. Modern monopoly corporatism in action. This from Rupert's rag:
An analysis by USA TODAY and The Corporate Library reveals the boards of the nation's leading companies have a startling amount of overlap.
Behind the controls of the nation's top businesses lurks an inner sanctum of friends, colleagues and partners who sit on corporate boards together. This clique of powerful people is supposed to oversee corporations and protect the rights of millions of shareholders.
Critics say that creates the potential for serious conflicts of interest and negates what is supposed to be an independent watchdog in Corporate America's system of checks and balances. "We're certainly not suggesting that every (relationship) indicates some sort of impropriety," says Ric Marshall, CEO of The Corporate Library. "But they do contain that potential."
Industry buys up patents and shelves them to protect monopoly power and uses government corruption to shut out new technology. When both parties serve corporate power, corporatism rules. That is where we are at now.
Isn't it nice to have Obama, Harvard Law Revue editor on our side? He will either dissapoint a lot of his classmates or US. I'm betting that the corporate jetset will be dissapointed for a few years, then come onboard to take control of the new energy economy.
Once they realize they have no other choice that will benefit their bottomlines. But until then they are going to fight hard against this effort.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Pompey Road Posted 3:46 am
18 Jan 2009
No where will this be more evident than Detroit and the electric car.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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amazingdrx Posted 4:07 am
18 Jan 2009
Would Liberty Ships have been built if industry had it's own way? Not in time to win WW II.
When Henry Kaiser had a problem with industry leadership, FDR would call the problem corporatist personally and get production moving again. Appealing to patriotism with all the force of a wartime federal government behind his gentle reasoning.
Compare this to the auto bail out hearings, was there any clear direction for the auto execs to follow? Nope.
A simple, functional, inexpensive plugin hybrid is possible right now given mass production and lighter materials. Mandate it with a contract like the WW II jeep contract and it will become the Model T of this new energy economy as consumers embrace it, like they did the jeep after WW II.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Pompey Road Posted 6:59 am
18 Jan 2009
Yes, we all hearken back to at time when you had competitive bidding on not only military procurement but all government contracts. At a time when several corporations had to risk the R&D cost and bid against others just to get a shot at a contract. Now at this time of Haliburton's exclusive military contracts and no bid contracts on drugs for the Medicare Prescription Drug Program the mentality for the fiscal conservative running of government seems archaic and old fashioned. No matter it was a time when you could get quality products built on time and most times below cost.
14,000 well placed lobbyist have changed the government procurement model and forwarded the wants of the leading corporations over the needs of the people.
Such is life in a Corpocracy.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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biodiversivist Posted 1:53 pm
18 Jan 2009
The thing about coolness is that everybody wants to emulate what is cool. That's what fads are all about. First the cool kids do it. Once the dorks are all doing it, the fad dies to be replaced by something new by the cool kids and the pattern keeps repeating itself. If we can just find ways to channel trends toward environmentally beneficial things, like smallish, zero energy dwellings, we might have something.
In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
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Pompey Road Posted 11:58 pm
18 Jan 2009
What would be the ultimate cool would to be able to drop a 500 hp computer controlled electric motor in it. The first GM car of the modern era and then the first GM retro car that will smoke the tires with 500 electron driven horses derived from plugging it into a solar charger.
Still looking to do a Delorean conversion. Be kind of ironic, take a car developed by the guy who started the muscle car craze "John Delorean" and convert it to electric. The GTO may have been an environmentalist nightmare but a stainless steel electric car that will last forever would be an environmentalist dream.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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amazingdrx Posted 1:21 am
19 Jan 2009
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
"Nothing" except wasted energy. 6% of the energy in the gas guzzler gets to the road surface to propell the car. When the tires smoke, that goes down below 3%, since it is being converted into friction.
The tire smoking is evidence of a primitive rubber/road clutch, trying in vain to adjust the drivetrain velocity to the vehicle velocity.
If you want to accelerate and drive quickly, the purely applied 80% efficient torque of an electric drivetrain beats the gas guzzling, tire smoking, furious sound of wasted energy from a Ferrari.
If it's "cool" status you value, a better test would be to cruise around in an electric Ferrari conversion, then compare the "dates" garnered, to the attention attracted by a gas guzzling Ferrari of the same design.
A large plugin hybrid logo should be permissible for this test. And since for Ferrari-"men" (ahem! Compensation for masculine deficiencies in other areas?) money is no object, the electric conversion should have equivalent performance to the gas guzzler.
Speed and acceleration being equal, I believe the companionship one would experience with the "green" Ferrari would be of a whole different quality, incomparable with that of the gas guzzler groupies.
Siliconed warheads versus intrinsic beauty, an apt comparison.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Bob Wallace Posted 1:59 am
19 Jan 2009
http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/corp_gov ...
And here's Exxon's Board of Directors
http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/investor_governance_d ...
See any overlap?
Got any from Big Cars and Big Oil? (I didn't feel like any more googling tonight....)
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Pompey Road Posted 3:21 am
19 Jan 2009
I have more practical experience with battery powered electric vehicles than anyone on this blog. In under ground coal mining we have had battery powered electric motor haulage and transportation vehicles for over 50 years. They had to b developed for an environment where diesel or gas fumes would be detrimental to human health. With even lead acid batteries we use machines that will haul massive tonnage all day on a single charge. I have even converted large coal scoops from a front bucket haul system to a ram car extending the usable length of time between charges and increasing the haulage capacity. This equipment with a gear ratio for low speed hauling could obtain highway speeds with lighter bodies for transportation and running a higher gear ratio.
Advances in battery technology for sure and some light composite materials for construction along with advances in construction technology will usher in the electric car. I do not know which will jump to the immediate forefront CNG, Hybrid, Hydrogen or Electric but the combustion engine as we know it will be no more. The end result in time will be a non combustion type of automobile.
It will probably be hydrostatic drive and yes I will miss revving it up to around 5000 rpm and dumping the clutch but the masses will probably require a smooth shiftless power transfer to the wheels.
Not to worry I will still be able to get my ol 55 out and light it up. When I think of all the high octane leaded fuel we burned up at .34 cents a gallon and how much money it took to get the lead out of the environment, society should not begrudge me one little burn out for nostalgia sake. ...JOKING
PS, I don't mine coal anymore and work to see it's demise. Just to stop any anti-coal mining tirade on this thread.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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Bob Wallace Posted 11:38 am
19 Jan 2009
I'm imagining some danged big battery packs....
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Pompey Road Posted 12:52 pm
20 Jan 2009
What impresses me is the weight of the machine itself plus haulage and getting most times an 8 hour run on one charge. The downside being it takes several hours to charge a large bank of battery's and most individuals won't have the advantage of having two sets or the physical means to pull one bank of batteries out and set the other set in if the car is needed before the bank in the car is charged to full capacity.
As we all know advances will have to be made in battery technology to get us the needed smaller batteries and better weight distribution needed for automobile's. Battery pack life and the expense involved in buying a new battery pack so the electric car will not be so cost prohibitive.
Thus the real advantage of the use of battery equipment in industry. The profit margin eases the cost of replacing a bank of lead acid batteries for industry. An individual may be more cost handicapped keeping that extra set around or battery replacement. In an industrial setting it poses no problem for a user to grap a hoist and set in a bank of batteries. If mom had to before she could go shopping it may pose an inconvenience not acceptable for a domestic end user.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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Bob Wallace Posted 1:38 pm
20 Jan 2009
PHEVs and exchangeable batteries are likely to be transitional solutions.
PHEVs could cut our personal petroleum use to ~20% of what it is today. It even makes it somewhat possible to use (non food source) biofuels for those times that batteries won't take us far enough.
If we don't see long range and/or quick charge batteries coming to market in the next few years then we may move to exchangeable battery packs. Most likely exchanges would be done at "service stations". Push a button on your dash and the car will find the nearest available charged pack, reserve it for you, and guide you where you need to go. Drive up and the automated equipment will do the job.
(San Francisco is moving forward with this technology.)
Most people would not need to exchange battery packs at home. The Tesla can be fully recharged in four hours with a 240v 70amp outlet. That's not a lot of garage time.
(And there is no reason why we cannot develop automatic plug in systems. Much easier to do that the robotic gas pumps that and identify dozens of models of cars, open the filler pipe, pump the gas, and close things back up.)
For those who might actually need to swap out at home, I'm sure someone will make a "robot" that will snatch out the discharged pack, slide in a new one, and start the recharge process. (I haven't been able to imagine anyone who's lifestyle would require something like this.)
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amazingdrx Posted 2:23 pm
20 Jan 2009
This looks like a solution for cabs, delivery trucks, garbage trucks, ultralight low speed neighborhood/urban electric vehicles, if you are driving them in a local area that has battery exchange stations every 5 miles or so, these would never need gas or be out of service over a feqw minutes for the robot battery exchanger to do its deed.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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amazingdrx Posted 2:39 pm
20 Jan 2009
These Better Place battery exchange stations are even more efficient and convenient than conventional gas stations. Each is roughly the size of your average living room. Like the charging spots, they are fully automated. A driver pulls in, puts the car in the neutral gear, and sits back. The battery exchange station does all the work. The depleted battery is removed, and a fully-charged replacement is installed. In under three minutes, the car is back on the road. It's just like an automatic car wash, a quick, effortless, drive-through experience.
As informal advisors to Barack, can we safely recomend this system be installed in large government compounds and facilities as a spur to mass production. And that cities and states start to fund these systems too through federal loans and grants. Is he reading this blog, hehey.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Black Wallaby Posted 3:28 pm
20 Jan 2009
Elsewhere Bob Wallace suggests a 240Volt 70 amp (yes, SEVENTY amp) power outlet for electrically recharging coal-fired cars!
How many American homes have one or more such massive coal-fired electrical outlets?, and what is their cost and return on investment?
BTW, what is the derivation of TESLA? How about a competition, and I lead with:
Transitory Elusionary Senseless Lunatic Automobile.
That was just a quickie by me, but I`m sure that someone can come-up with something much more entertaining.
^ BTW, does that not generate some rather substantial magnetic fields and stuff, somewhere, randomly?
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Bob Wallace Posted 3:28 pm
20 Jan 2009
Toshiba apparently has a quick charge battery (five minutes) with a ten year life span.
http://www.physorg.com/news116591313.html
Now, if we really do have batteries in the chute that will give us this sort of capability then all we need is some nice big fat wires to plug in to.
Battery switch infrastructure might be an unnecessary expense.
And remember that exchangeable battery packs would require some sort of build standards to make things work. We might want our batteries distributed around the car for maximal usable space and best vehicle handling.
Look at that strange looking Tango. Looks like you could shove it over with one hand. But because you can get the weight much lower than you can do with an ICE engine it is quite stable.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/ClooneyTango.html
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Bob Wallace Posted 3:51 pm
20 Jan 2009
Here in the US I understand that 240v 70amp outlets are the max permitted under standard building codes. Lots of people have 240v 35amp outlets for things like clothes dryers.
Getting one installed in your garage would mean a couple hours (more or less) of electrician's time to run some big three strand from your main service box to the outlet.
Lots of people place their circuit breaker box in the garage so for them the installation would be minimal. We're talking circuit breaker, outlet, and a few feet of wire. (OK, some conduit as well. Add in three more bucks.)
All we're talking here is a couple of electric dryer outlets ganged together.
--
Tesla range ~ 240 miles per charge. Recharge time ~ 4 hours with 240v 70amp outlet. Obviously slower if the available outlet is smaller.
A "practical" green car? No. Not built for Joe Average to use for commuting to work. It's a performance car for those with some extra bucks to spend.
The important thing about the Tesla (IMHO) is that it totally killed the idea that electric cars have to be poky golf carts with windows. This puppy puts Detroit Iron to shame.
--
The Tesla, no it's $35k less than a tricked out Vette. I haven't been pricing Ferraris lately, but I doubt you could pick up a new one for under $200k.
BTW, the only production car faster than the Tesla is a Bugatti Veyron. And it sells for $1.5 million.
--
And "coal fired", well if we're going to be accurate the best one could say is 50% coal fired. That's the percentage for the US. Here in CA we're way under 50% coal fired and dropping fast.
Even that US 50% will be dropping more rapidly with today's change of administration.
Start teaching the fat lady the "Goodbye Coal" song....
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amazingdrx Posted 5:31 pm
20 Jan 2009
The beauty of lead/acid technology batteries is they are recyclable and made of inexpensive elements. Lithium is always going to be an obstacle to lowering battery cost.
Here's a nano carbon lead/acid battery.
What if this were combined with nano lead electrodes instead of foamed lead? They got 1600 cycles with the Pb-C cells.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Bob Wallace Posted 5:45 pm
20 Jan 2009
If the lithium is highly recoverable at a reasonable cost then prices will drop.
--
There's a lot of work being done on batteries. Here's something posted today regarding silicon nanowire with lithium batteries.
Overall, I think we're going to see major improvements in batteries and shouldn't lock ourselves into any expensive infrastructure at this time which could be quickly outdated.
I think the really smart thinking that I've seen lately is Toyota's choice with the new Prius for a design that makes it easy to snatch out the current battery pack and replace it with one suitable for a PHEV. That's an indication (my guess) that they see better batteries in our near future.
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Pompey Road Posted 10:52 pm
20 Jan 2009
Good point on the 50% coal fired and this will be peak. The alternative pitch and now the new administrations commitment to alternative will cut into this over time.
Solar chargers are quite common now. I keep one on equipment that does not get constant use. There is no reason now to depend exclusively on a coal fired electrical charge for equipment that requires a battery to start.
As solar catches on for off grid and the technology advances are made here also the solar charger will develop with the electric car. Most home solar stations will have larger capacities and become more efficient, no reason they will not be able to supply current for home use and charge your car.
As a matter of fact the cost of batteries may come down if the same batteries are used in auto and home systems. Volume equals lower cost, economy of scale.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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Bob Wallace Posted 11:07 pm
20 Jan 2009
More likely as solar becomes inexpensive we'll roof our houses with it and sell that power to the grid during the day when demand is up. Then we'll buy back less expensive nighttime electricity to charge our cars.
Don't forget that daytime power use is much higher than post midnight use. We will need to build our system to provide most of our peak hour use so that we don't have to fall back on lots of expensive natural gas. That will mean lots of extra (especially wind) power at night.
Owning/maintaining a separate set of batteries to either exchange into our car or to provide a nighttime charge doesn't make too much sense.
I've been off the grid for over 20 years. I don't think most people would want to pay for or maintain a set of batteries for their homes when they can "store" on the grid.
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amazingdrx Posted 11:51 pm
20 Jan 2009
When wind and sun are peaking a lot of unusable power will be produced. So use it for desalinating and recycling waste water, the value of those GHG-free kwh, which would otherwise be lost, is locked into the fresh water supply.
And that fresh water can be used for irrigation, which in turn sequesters more carbon through enhanced photosynthesis.
As you have found out, being off the grid, if your power supply is low from time to time it is possible to adjust. Designing the whole grid on that premise with better emergency low power backup built into the grid, starting with each home or building, would engage the crucial element in all human systems.
The ability of humans to adapt. That's our great atribute passed on down the line from evolution. So let's make that the smartest part of the distributed smart grid.
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Bob Wallace Posted 12:11 am
21 Jan 2009
When I designed the system for this house I put a couple of large water tanks up the hill, about 80' higher than the house, one for household use and one for the garden/orchard.
My routine is to fill the house batteries with the first sun of the day and then, if there's extra sun, I pump up from the well to the storage tanks.
If I had to 'pump on demand' I would need a lot more batteries to get the same work done.
Same in the winter. A nice sunny day means that I can fill tanks and I don't have to worry about pumping during cloudy stretches.
It's all manual now, but automating it is one of this next year's projects.
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amazingdrx Posted 1:19 am
21 Jan 2009
When solar energy peaks freeze saltwater in your freezer/refrigerator to keep it cool for a day or two with no sun. When the sun shines or wind blows run circulating pumps that use water cooled by the ground to store coolness in the cement slab of your home.
Your evolving manual smart grid could be turned into software and be running on your laptop right now. Imagine that. Then distributed computing could connect that software together on lots of computers in neighborhood smart grids...it's alive! (almost)
http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin
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Pompey Road Posted 2:03 am
21 Jan 2009
It was not my intention to imply that an extra set of batteries should be the standard or the norm when developing the electric car. It is just what is done in some industrial settings to get around the lengthy charge times.
The electric car will have to be what the modern gasoline automobile is today. Large enough to be practical, get 250-400 miles on a single charge, the battery pack last for at least 100,000 miles and cost around five to six thousand dollars to replace and can be bought for around $30,000 dollars. Oh, yea! It will also have to be able to provide power for such convenience appliances as air conditioning and heat.
It will be done, just as soon as you get Exxon out of the way. It took over a hundred years to get the modern gas automobile to where it is today after the oil and automotive industry killed the battery automobile that was also running around at the beginning of the last century almost at the same time Mr. Fords first car was on the street.
We have a Mars Rover running around on Mars for the last 5 years that was supposed to be only a three month program. The only reason it is the size of a Tonka Toy and not as large as a Mack truck is the expense of getting it there.
People don't generally drive a car all the way to empty before they fill up, no reason they won't do quick charges on ½ to ¼ full charge as soon as the battery technology and charger technology permits. There is no need for a second bank of batteries for an electric car and did not mean to imply there would be.
The same advances in battery technology for automobiles will carry over to the solar home both on and off grid. Converter technology is almost already there, 5000 watts is fairly cheap right now. We need a cheap 15 to 20 kw and it won't be that hard to do. The same extended run/extended charge batteries for the electric car will help solve the nigh and cloudy day problems with solar. The smart grid that allows all types of power to enter the power grid and the provider to get paid for it is the reason for the smart grid Obama is talking about I assume. I know the main thrust right now is the ability to transport power from all points to all points in the country to take advantage of the western wind power. However they will be missing the boat as more solar homes come online and become so efficient they will produce power beyond what it takes for their own use. On grid solar rural can provide a lot of power to the metropolitan areas where roof square footage does not provide enough room for condo's or High Rise apartments solar panels.
It took a while to go from crank to electric start and then from 6 volt to 12 volt for start systems. Today's R&D and the time it takes to bring innovation to market works at hyper speed compared to the slow development of the gas engine car.
The old oil corporate and fuel driven auto corporate crowd are slowing things down now. As of yesterday I am hoping to see some changes in the way we think about transportation and the innovation needed to develop it green. The technology is just to damn simple not to develop a viable electric car. We can talk it to death but it will always come back around to the battery. All the developments we have made already in power drive technology and computer control are already in place as well as light metal and composite material for the bodies. I will not believe the battery is not just around the corner that will meet the range, charge and construction cost requirements for mass production of an electric car.
There are also different types of energy to take advantage of connected with the braking and drive systems that will augment the power provided by the batteries. These methods are already being used in some early hybrids.
The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.
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drewtiss Posted 6:00 pm
07 Aug 2009
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