“The President has been very, very clear about this. He wants the biofuel industry to take hold in this country. He wants us to break our addiction to foreign oil. The only way we can do that is by producing our own fuel and the biofuels industry is the way we are going to do that.
“Corn-based ethanol will continue to be part of the solution but by no means the only way to produce ethanol.
“We are working very hard to make sure that we maintain the infrastructure of the ethanol industry in the United States ... There will likely be some companies that will succeed and some companies that won’t, but it won’t be because we haven’t been giving them an opportunity to succeed.”
—USDA Secretary Tom Vlsack, in an interview with Reuters
Corn-based meat and ethanol: burning the planet to a crisp
Comments
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Biodiversivist Posted 9:00 am
30 Jun 2009
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veritone Posted 11:05 am
30 Jun 2009
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neosapiens Posted 11:33 am
30 Jun 2009
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Honestscience Posted 6:54 am
03 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 7:40 am
03 Jul 2009
to second generation fuels from a myriad of other feedstocks..."Why don't you get back to us when that happens. If government mandates can magically tailor make any new technology, why don't they mandate a cure for cancer while they're at it?"...there is a mainstream market developed
into which to send those advanced fuels once they are ready..."You did a good job parroting that talking point but there is no market for this fuel as market is normally defined. Citizens are forced to subsidize it, and then have it forced down their throats by fiat as a blend in the gas they buy. Gone are the days when consumer actually had a choice to buy a ten percent blend called Gasohol. The lobbyists found a way to make you buy it.To become a real armchair expert, you have a few things to learn. Grab a beer, start reading:http://biodiversivist.blogspot.com/2009/05/biofuel-myths.html
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neosapiens Posted 11:43 am
03 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 10:11 am
04 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 10:11 am
04 Jul 2009
Today on Independence Day 7/04/09
Nor any other day of the year!
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:42 pm
04 Jul 2009
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</style> Sacamentoe85, You are
a roving disinformation machine. "...switching
petroleum dependence for lithium dependence is also concerning..." Everything
has an impact. Some ideas simply have much more impact than others. Let's compare
a 15 gallon fuel tank filled with 90 pounds of corn ethanol to a plug-in hybrid
using lithium batteries. 80% of
the energy in that tank of ethanol will be wasted, dissipated to the air as
waste heat as it powers an internal combustion engine. At least two third s of
any gallon of corn ethanol is made from fossil fuels. It will be converted into
a few hundred pounds of CO2 and spewed into the atmosphere. You will then fill
it up again and start all over. The pound
or two of lithium will be used by the plug-in hybrid for its entire life and
then get recycled to use again. Most of
the world's reserves of lithium reside in the high altitude Bolivian salt
flats. There are some pockets of biodiversity in that area that should be
carefully preserved but overall, the salt flats are a vast biologically sterile
area and mining it can be done with little impact to biodiversity. "...Speaking
of saving forests and biodiversity, it is equally troubling that clearing
forests in Canada to mine that lithium to ship to Japan to then ship back to
the U.S. is something else...." You
have confused lithium-based battery chemistry with nickel-based. Present
hybrids use NiMH batteries. A quick check on finds eleven nickel mines in
Canada. One hasn't opened and three are closed. The others are underground
mines not affecting forests and the one open pit mine is located where there
are no forests. Â
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:44 pm
04 Jul 2009
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</style> "...A big
problem of today's Hybrids are that they still run on petroleum gasoline...." Actually, a
Prius burns far fewer fossil fuels than the average American flex fuel car
running on E-85 corn ethanol. I just ran the numbers. Would you like a copy of
the spreadsheet? "...imported
to us from unfriendly nations...." Trade has
proven to be the best antidote to warfare. Using xenophobia to promote corn ethanol
is a bad idea. "...this
combination can wipe out oil imports..." Using roughly
a quarter of our corn crop displaced roughly 5% of our oil (when adjusted for
lower mileage), therefore, using half of it will leave us 90% dependent on oil. "...American
made ethanol provides jobs and $$$ for the economy, big-time..." Actually
not. It's a vote buying pyramid scheme transferring wealth from blue states to
red states and costs a fortune. Several studies have found it to be one of the
most expensive ways to reduce carbon emissions, assuming it does reduce any.
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_windowthe parable of
the broken window. "...Newest
ethanol technology has at least 150% EROEI.
Ethanol contains about 1/6 gallon of petroleum, the rest is fossil
fuels, sun light, wind, etc. Therefore
we turn one gallon of petroleum into at least 8 times the energy through
ethanol fuel...." Your
numbers are gibberish. Any hydrocarbon can be converted to a liquid fuel. Coal can
be burned directly or turned directly into liquid fuels as can natural gas. Corn
ethanol consumes fossil fuels, adds in some energy captured by the sun and
creates a liquid fuel of which only a third is renewable by the very best
estimates, leaving two thirds non-renewable because it was made with fossil
fuels.
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:46 pm
04 Jul 2009
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</style> "...The CBO has found that corn ethanol caused at most a 0.5%
food price increase..." Translation: Corn ethanol cost Americans about $9 billion in
higher food costs in 2008. "...Corrected for inflation, corn today is much lower in price
than it was in the 1970's..." That statement is calculated to mislead. In the seventies,
almost a quarter of the world population was starving. Take a look at this
chart: http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/Graphics/img30.gif Note that corn ethanol, after reaching a peak of about $5 a
bushel has dropped to around $4 a bushel. Note that the price of corn,
corrected for inflation averaged about $2.00 a bushel 2001 through 2005, when
the Renewable Fuels legislation passed congress mandating ethanol use. It only
takes a few weeks of high prices to starve a child. The number of chronically
hungry has hit a billion for the first time in history.
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:47 pm
04 Jul 2009
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</style> "...American farmers and corn ethanol are not the cause of
starvation--regional conflicts, corrupt governments, disease, lack of
infrastructure, and people having 8 babies when they can't feed 2 are the
problems...." American farmers are just businessmen on the receiving end
of government handouts. Clearly corn ethanol has raised the price of a major
staple for hundreds of millions of the world's poorest. Clearly it belongs in
your list of reasons for hunger. If I were to blame a group of individuals, I
would blame all those who continue to promote corn ethanol as a viable answer. "...not passing on the rumors and false science that Big Oil,
Big Investment Bank, and Big Food salivate on..." I enjoy debating you and will continue to do so with every
opportunity. Your insistence that any data critical of corn ethanol came from
shadow figures in the oil, banking, and worst of all, food industries is something
I want to highlight for any and all readers of your posts. "...No soldiers died for my fuel-Today on Independence Day
7/04/09 Nor any other day of the year!..." Your corn ethanol has not and never will save anyone's life.
If anything is has helped to kill poor children around the world: http://biodiversivist.blogspot.com/2009/04/six-things-you-probably-didnt-know.html And as I said before, using xenophobia and nationalism to
promote corn ethanol is dangerous.
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SacramentoE85 Posted 8:58 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 9:40 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 9:46 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 9:48 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 9:53 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 9:56 am
05 Jul 2009
http://coskata.com/News.asp
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E85Prices Posted 10:00 am
05 Jul 2009
"Our discussions with FPL and the governor's office went nowhere, so we took our facility and 4,000 jobs to Texas," said Paul Woods, chief executive of Algenol Biofuels Inc. "All of our executives live here, and we would love for there to be significant facilities built in Florida."
A representative for Gov. Charlie Crist did not return a call, and Florida Power & Light could not be reached Monday.
Algenol has developed technology that produces ethanol by using algae, sunlight, carbon dioxide and seawater. The low-cost system produces 15 times as much ethanol per acre than corn fields, a rate that could rise to 50 times as much with innovations under development.
Dow Chemical Co. announced Monday that it is teaming with Algenol on a pilot-scale algae biorefinery in Freeport, Texas. Last Wednesday, Algenol applied for a $25 million stimulus grant through the U.S. Department of Energy, money that will kickstart the project.
http://www.glgroup.com/News/Valero-wants-to-harvest-CO2-credits-with-wind-farm-powering-a-Texas-refinery-40938.html
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E85Prices Posted 10:04 am
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 10:13 am
05 Jul 2009
by the oil giants to get at the petroleum under their towns?..."No. How many? Send us a link. Meanwhile, take a look at these land grabs for expansion of agriculture, which food based biofuels are exacerbating:http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/03/land-grabbing-food-environment "...Name calling will get your ideas nowhere in these discussions...."You are referring to my labeling you a roving disinformation machine? You still insist that lithium mines are displacing Candian forests?"...Worldly socialism has no place in a democratic, capitalistic free
nation like the United States of America, this land our fathers and
fore-fathers fought to protect our liberties..."
Your corn ethanol relies solely on the largese of the state to remain solvent, supported by the sweat of fellow citizens hard-earned tax dollars. That is by definition, socialism.Wasn't it also our forefathes who exterminated the buffalo to turn the plains into vast swaths of sterile monocrops, after having committed genocide on the native people before stealing their land?"...Why have to ship corn all the way around the world?..."It's called free trade. It is the best policy known to reduce the incentive for humans to go to war with each other. Farmers don't "have to ship corn" they "want to ship corn" to paying customers. Should we stop buying computers and cars from other parts of the world?"...We still export record amounts of corn...."Where did you get the idea that the price of corn won't go up until we stop exporting it?"...The price being a little
higher..."A little higher? The price of corn has increased 100% since 2001. Didn't you bother to look at this USDA graph:http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/Graphics/img30.gif "...gives the encouragement to farmers IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES to
grow their own food.For DECADES America's farmers have been blamed
for keeping corn prices too low, keeping those other nations' farmers
in poverty and their own families starving..."For decades, America's farmers have been successfully lobbying to get subsidies for their crops. All of a sudden, they think it's time for the poor people of the world to get out their hoes and donkeys and start growing their own food in the parched lands of Africa. The UN has just declared that the number of hungry in the world just hit a billion for the first time in history.Jeffery Sachs, an expert on African poverty has pointed out that the poor eat what they can afford. If they can't grow it cheaper than they can buy it, they buy it. Raise the price of that food and millions of urban poor will simply be forced to eat less. My wife and oldest daughter just returned from a medical mission to a rural village in El Salvador where they grow their own corn and beans. It is an unimaginably difficult life. Average income is $5 per day. There are hundreds of millions who survive on less than $2 a day.Corn ethanol has nothing to do with a free market. Remove its subsidies and it would disapear tomorrow except as an anti-knock additive.
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E85Prices Posted 10:18 am
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 10:25 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 10:28 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 10:37 am
05 Jul 2009
I certainly understand why you don't want people to understand that corn is just a foundation and that cellulosic has already begun.
If it wasn't for corn ethanol being produced in any volume we never would have seen cellulosic ethanol emerging at such a fast pace.
Corn is cheap and abundant...if you want to help the "hungry" people you can either continually subsidize there food or you can and keep them enslaved to depending on others by just "feeding" them or you can supply them the tools to provide for themselves
If you prefer to keep them enslaved..you can buy 56 lbs of corn for $3.60 and feel free to start a campaign to feed the Worlds Hungry
blaming ethanol for peoples hunger is nonsense
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E85Prices Posted 10:58 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 11:00 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 11:05 am
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 11:33 am
05 Jul 2009
Increased food prices are only one of the negatives of corn ethanol. If it were the only issue corn ethanol wouldn't look nearly as bad.You haved used the price paid to an American farmer, not the retail price. Retail prices vary a lot. For example, the price I pay for yellow corn meal in my grocery store is $48 per bushel. 6.5 x 48 = $312.Certainly the poorest in the world don't see that kind of mark up but they also don't have my income:http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats880 million people earn less than $365 a year. 1.4 billion earn less than $500 a year. Millions of these people spend most of their income on food. My next door neighbors just adopted a two-year old girl from an orphanage in Ethiopia.The doctor told her father that they had never seen such a low crit count. She is the size of a 12 month old, has little stick legs, walks like a robot, has sunken cheeks and patches of hair missing. Her dad brings her over every evening to eat cherries off my tree.You have a myopic world view centered around the 0.004 percent of the world population (American farmers). Fair enough but you don't deserve my charity. According to UNICEF,
25,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in
some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny
and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes
these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.Around
27-28 percent of all children in developing countries are estimated to
be underweight or stunted. The two regions that account for the bulk of
the deficit are South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.
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E85Prices Posted 11:35 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 11:51 am
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 12:21 pm
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 12:57 pm
05 Jul 2009
to be particularly focused on it I'm game to discuss it more.No
one is denying that poverty is utlimately the result of inept, corrupt,
governance. However, given that hard reality, anything that increases
the cost of food for those trapped in these impoverished circumstances
is pouring gas on a fire. Food based biofuels tend to exacerbate
roaring fires.The price of food can be brought down by expanding supply by expansion of agriculture, but that exacerbates global warming by displacing carbon sinks, so you can see how potentioal solutions are being bounded by the fact that we have exceeded planetary system limits already. And how can you guys ignore the fact that 3 billion more humans are in the pipeline?And stop with the box of cornflakes argument which has been debunked here already:http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/desiremore/biofuelmyths1.htm#bookmark12along with the Grocery Manufactuers Association conspiracy theories:http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/desiremore/biofuelmyths1.htm#bookmark13And yes, the GMA has taken a page or two from the RFA playbook and pay for their own studies, and call for op-eds in an attempt to sway public opinion to protect profit margins.
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Biodiversivist Posted 1:01 pm
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 1:27 pm
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 1:33 pm
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 1:49 pm
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:25 pm
05 Jul 2009
"...Once Again corn is $3.60 for 56 lbs. anyone CAN BUY FOR THAT price..."Third World consumers, after having the corn dried, shipped to another continent, bagged, and trucked to their village can still pay direct wholesale prices for their corn? That's wonderful news. I was unaware that there are that many philanthopists working for free out there."...Again you are barkng up the wrong tree trying to balme corn ethaol for high food prices..."Everyone acknowledges that ethanol has raised food prices, everything from eggs, meat, and dairy, to soy products displaced by corn. The only debate is over how much, and as I have said repeatedly, it is less of an issue to us fat wealthy Americans than it is to the starving poor, and it is only one issue out of many for this environmentally destructive wealth redistribution pyramid scheme.
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E85Prices Posted 2:55 pm
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 2:58 pm
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 3:55 pm
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 4:05 pm
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 4:22 pm
05 Jul 2009
the point.. education , stable governments , employment opportunities..."
This point above has already been debunked multiple times in previous posts, yada yada."...The "poors" food is already subsdized, the riches food is already
subsidized.. how many years have we paid American Cornn farmers to NOT
plant corn to keep the prices up?..."
Farmers can't resist planting more acreage in an attempt to make more money. It would work to, if only a few famers did it but they all try to do it and end up depressing grain prices. That is why the Conservation Reserve Program was invented. Pay the farmer some small rent for his marginally productive wetlands, grasslands, and hillsides, and make him promise not to plant on it. This land has become wildlife habitat and carbon sinks. It is being put back under the plow and other crops are also being displaced.
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SacramentoE85 Posted 4:35 pm
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 4:38 pm
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 5:51 pm
05 Jul 2009
issues, and we are all aware of the damage
massive subsidization and government meddling in free markets can do. Sound familiar? Your answer, more government meddling and even more subsidization.In your zeal to demonstrate how our self-serving ag policy (which would have been hotly debated at the time had the internet been ubiquitous) can harm the poor you just shot a hole in your argument. That was bad policy and it crushed small corn farmers. At least they had affordabole corn. Now that those small farmers have been displaced to the cities you want to jack the price of corn 100%, pouring salt on an open wound, sort of a one-two American farm lobby knock out punch. Pollan is also no fan of your corn.It is also more complicated than that. Central and South America were growing corn for many centuries before Columbus arrived. It has been an integral part of their culture from ancient times. The poverty in parts of Asia and Africa make the poverty in Mexico look tame. They need our corn to survive. They can't produce it cheaper, subsidy or no subsidy. The world has become interdependent on food supplies. To suddenly yerk from that supply 30 thousand square miles of corn crops and plunk it into our gas tanks after preventing the development of competing farm industries with government subsidies is every bit as self-serving and short-sighted as was the policy that wreaked havoc on Mexico. "...Like I said earlier makes little difference anyways .. we can only
produce 15 billion gallons of ethnaol form corn anyways out of a 36
billion gallon mandate. We are already at 11 billion gallons...."Pretty comical really. The corn ethanol publicists are, in addition to everything else they have forced upon fellow citizens, lobbying hard for another 5% in our cars because they are already hitting the 10% blending wall. Once again, the poor will get shafted as the old cars they drive with their cracked and degraded rubber seals, will be especially vulnerable to damage and repair bills."...Cellulosic
ethanol is alreay begun ...""Begun?" There is no econonically viable cellulosic ethanol being sold. The State biodiesel mandates where I live are not being met by anyone. In fact, we have managed to convince our city politicans to drop biofuels. As often happens in this country, change has to come from the bottom.Seattel Drops Biodiesel"...None of this would not have happened if it wasnt for corn ethanol paving the way..."Other than a lot of research, nothing has happened. Cellulosic ethanol is a binary state. It is affordable or it isn't. It may very well always be just five more years from viability. We can debate its merits if it ever arrives. What I can't wait to see are the excuses the corn industry will dream up to lobby for advantage over any competing fuel that threatens its existence, like tariffs on cane ethanol and on and on.
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E85Prices Posted 6:13 pm
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 6:18 pm
05 Jul 2009
When you look at the comment fields on the latest corn ethanol articles I find an overwhelming number of commenters don't buy your conspiracy theories. You two have become outliers."...What got displaced using Farmland to grow food and fuel? OH I dont know
.. a Mall ? A new Residentila Area? a Caol Mine? an Ol Field?..."
According to this researcher and her satellite data, jungle and grassland did. "...What part dont you understand Corn ethnaol is only a foundatiion..it
isnt going to kepe growing and growing and growing..in fact we have a
Law that wont allow it..."Why would you suppose there is a law against it? Could it possibly be that the politicians took a guess at how much of their food supply voters would allow to be put int their gas tanks before they started voting them out of office, and how accurately do you suppose they called that shot?Enough nonsense about corn ethanol not impacting food costs.
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Biodiversivist Posted 6:27 pm
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 6:27 pm
05 Jul 2009
Corn ethanol isn't responsible for high food costs, which was proven by the Congressional Budget Office. It was less than 1% of the increase in food costs.There is a reserve of 1.4 million bushels of corn after we feed the World and made 10 billion gallon of ethanol . The problems of poverty have little to do with American grain prices than it does with lack of education , lack of Governments, lack of employment , Countries run by thugs (Samolia for example) Most of the Worlds poor is already on American Welfare Program we send hundreds of billions in aid around the World each year .
I'd prefer we send them Used Tractors and American Farmers to teach them how to grow thier own food instead of free grain and cheap grain which does nothing but keeps them on the American welfare program
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E85Prices Posted 6:34 pm
05 Jul 2009
That will really help them fend for themselves... :sarcasm: You know if it was just a matter of tiding them over until they can get back to producing for themselves it would be fine.But it is the same welfare over and over and over..
we never demand they start setting up the infrastructer to provide for themselves...
and we give them all the incentive with cheap and free grain to NOT provide for themselves.
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Biodiversivist Posted 6:43 pm
05 Jul 2009
than it does with lack of education , lack of Governments, lack of
employment , Countries run by thugs (Samolia for example)..."Your have said this at least three times now and I have addressed it as many times. Go read previous discussions."...Most of the Worlds poor is already on American Welfare Program we send
hundreds of billions in aid around the World each year .
I'd prefer we send them Used Tractors and American Farmers to teach
them how to grow thier own food instead of free grain and cheap grain
which does nothing but keeps them on the American welfare program..."American farmers are the biggest welfare recipients of them all and they always want more. Sending used tractors and farmers can't fix the horrible governance the poor are trapped under. Raising the cost of their food to make a tiny group like American farmers wealthier on the backs of fellow taxpayers just pours gas on a fire.And at no point in this entire debate have we touched on all of the other things wrong with this fuel.
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Biodiversivist Posted 6:54 pm
05 Jul 2009
we never demand they start setting up the infrastructer to provide for themselves...
and we give them all the incentive with cheap and free grain to NOT provide for themselves...."Farm subsidies are welfare for American farmers, not poor Africans. You wanted it. You lobbied for it. You got it. It just happened to help the poor of the world to afford food, while simultaneously preventing them from having any hope of competing on the world market. That isn't welfare, that's just a side effect of the welfare lavished on the American farmerIt's too late to go back now. Raising the price of food for billions of poor at this point is just making a terrible situation worse.
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E85Prices Posted 7:09 pm
05 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 9:08 pm
05 Jul 2009
than 1% of the increase in food costs..do you even understand we spend
over 1.5 Trillion on Food ayear .. 9 billion is the proverbial piss in
the ocean...Again Corn is $3,45 for 56 lbs if you think that is to much to pay for 56lbs of corn you have some real issues then."Poppycock! That's a fight'in word. This is what, the fifth time you've said this? 9 billion dollars is piss in the ocean? Here, let me just copy and paste a couple of my previous responses again. We can just go round and round in circles all night. This is going to be easy:"The CBO calculated that corn ethanol cost American consumers around $9 billion last year, as you were told earlier. That's
more than the 51 cent blending subsidy cost us. The cost of food here
in the U.S., the wealthiest courntry in the world, is not the main
issue with corn ethanol, as you have been told ...repeatedly. It is
mostly an issue with the poorest in the world, and as you have been
told ...repeatedly, it is only one of many major issues with corn
ethanol....If the $9 billion dollars corn ethanol cost Americans
in higher food prices is minuscule, then so is the $9.3 billion in
lower mileage costs as well as the $4.5 billion in blending subsidies.
Anyone can make a very large number look minuscule by dividing it by an
even larger number, like say, the number of seconds in a year to make
the cost per second of corn ethanol ...minuscule. This is one reason it
is so hard to end subsidies to special interest groups. The cumulative
total impact on our tax bills is huge, but when singled out, each cost
looks small."About half of that trillion dollars goes to restaurants."... Gasoline is up 400% on it's historical average ..umm you think that
might have something to do with corn higher then it's "historical"
average lole..."Umm, you lost me there partner. Have you finally abandonded the food argument and broached the next problem with this fuel? First, gas isn't up 400% on its historical average, but that's irrelevant. Economic theory and common sense rarely arrive at the same conclusions but in the case of biofuels they have. As we head into peak oil and ever rising liquid fuel prices, all liquid fuels will be thrown in the same boat since they are relatively interchangeable. Biofuels will never cost less than petroleum. They will rise in price with it. We already saw that happen last summer. The only way out for consumers is to use less liquid fuel. Biofuel sure isn't going to help their budget.
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SacramentoE85 Posted 9:24 pm
05 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 10:19 pm
05 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 6:53 am
06 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 7:13 am
06 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 8:27 am
06 Jul 2009
help?..."How many times has it been pointed out that consumers didn't get anywhere near 10 billion gallons worth of mileage in 2008? It was closer to 6. At this point, every time you make that claim a reader somewhere is rolling his or her eyes. Repeat a falsehood often enough and people will come to believe it, unless every time you repeat it someone is there to refute it.Corn ethanol is wonderful ....if you are a corn farmer. In the aggregate, is serves a tiny minority at the expense of the the majority and increases environmental degradation. The actual 5.6 billion worth of mileage added to our fuel supply last year was paid for by consumers. At the pump it neither helped nor hurt them. It screwed them in the grocery store and at tax time and tripped up effors to slow GHG releases, biodiversity loss, and carbon sinks lost to agriculture."...How about 100 billion gallons, as can be a likely outcome with
U.S. biofuels in several decades? Or to put it another way, what if we
don't have those 10 billion gallons now, or 100 billion gallons then?..."You are attempting to bait and switch. The debate is over corn ethanol, not potential future energy sources like algae biodiesel, fusion nuclear, and celluloic ethanol. Soy biodiesel lobbyists already removed the blending subsidy for a competing fuel last year, forcing it out of business. Corn ethanol lobbyists have maintained the tariff keeping cane ethanol out of the competition. These are just the start of a lobbying battle by these fuels to crush any fuel that tries to steal their profit. Corn ethanol does not lead to competing ideas, it is a roadblock to them."...A
Merrill-Lynch economist last year found we decreased the fuel costs for
everyone by 15% due to our ethanol production. I assume you will soon
post a link about how you think that's incorrect. He said it, not me.
Take it up with him. There's a lot that goes into fuel prices, whether
it's speculators, psychology, or actual supply and demand. He felt it
was 15%. Post your blog/opinion link now so we can ignore it...."OK, here you go. His name is Blanch, now working for Bank of America. That 15% comes not from a study, but from a single off the cuff remark in one article. When asked where he got that number he said it is based on a simple three variable equation. I bust this myth in detail here. I suspected that you never bother to follow or read links, but anyone following this debate might and your boast might give them the incentive to do so."...It
is going to take a combination of decreasing use per capita, hybrids,
plug-in's, biofuels, CNG, and other alternatives. Again, your crusade
against corn ethanol is missplaced considering you're a big hybrid
supporter (with its own imperfections)...."It's true that I'm a big proponent of energy efficiency, but our repeated attempts to stereotype me as some kind of hybrid car enthusiast/buff is off base. It will take a combination of those things but the biofuels we end up useing have to be better than the fossil fuels they replace. That isn't true with corn ethanol.
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Biodiversivist Posted 10:01 am
06 Jul 2009
batteries in the Prius; mined at Sudbury in Canda, sent to Japan where
the batteries are made, then shipped to the U.S..."Unlike yourself, I don't ignore links to sources. Your first link is a to a book about a mine that opened in the 1800's and the ecological damage it did. Thanks to efforts from environmentalists like myself, and ensuing government regulations, that mine has cleaned up its act:http://www.louallin.com/loupages/Sudbury.htmlYou can't blame the damage done by a single mine (in the century before the introduction of the first hybrid car) on the Prius battery. That mine produces about 4% of the entire world's supply of nickel, of which Toyota uses less than 1% of that one mine's output. There is more heavy metal (lead) by weight in the battery in your truck than nickel in a Prius hybrid battery."...Again, I wish not to bash on hybrids; they are needed. They are imperfect too, though..."Perfection does not exist. Its a matter of scale. We diverted around 30 thousand square miles of corn to our gas tanks last year. Below I repeat my previuos response to this same issue:"...Everything
has an impact. Some ideas simply have much more impact than others. Let's compare
a 15 gallon fuel tank filled with 90 pounds of corn ethanol to a plug-in hybrid
using "NiMh" batteries. 80% of
the energy in that tank of ethanol will be wasted, dissipated to the air as
waste heat as it powers an internal combustion engine. At least two third s of
any gallon of corn ethanol is made from fossil fuels. It will be converted into
a few hundred pounds of CO2 and spewed into the atmosphere. You will then fill
it up again and start all overThe "nickel" will be used by the plug-in hybrid for its entire life and
then get recycled to use again....""...Also--the
"Saudi Arabia" of lithium is Bolivia, which is not a
Western-world-lover and will be holding out for top prices, slowing the
use of lithium for hybrids..."That's right. And since corn ethanol can't make a dent in our liquid fuel supplies, it is no answer to the problem that half of the world now hates us. Free trade might help fix the wounds inflicted by Bush."...Those
interested in alternatives need to be helpful to each other, instead of
bashing the others' technologies..". That's absurd. Coal can easily be turned into liquid fuels. We could achieve energy independence with it the same way the Nazis did. Should we be "helpful" to that alternative insstead of "bahsing it"? The scientific method wouldn't work so good if every idea were to be embraced regadless of its merits."...If someone who had
a monetary stake in hybrid technology could stave off the other
alternatives, it would pay off handsomely. I hope that would not be
someone's motive...."Your efforts to subtly suggest that I have a stake in hybrid technolgy is ...almost endearing.
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Biodiversivist Posted 10:37 am
06 Jul 2009
Prices, your comments have degeneraed into nonsensical repetitions of previously refuted exhortations, each preceded with childlike, taunts like :Russ you make absolutely no sense what so ever" and "That's just to funny" and "Just proves you are completely ignorant to how farmers make a living."Is it possible that I really am debating a teenage girl after all? OMG, LOL.That's also a strawman argument. I never said farmers make a lot of money. It's a lifestyle choice, they choose it over a desk or construction job."...with about 40 percent
of farm-related income from direct government payments..."Thanks for validating what I said earlier."...What part of the fact that the "grain" is one of the least expensive variables in the cost of food?..."Do you even know what a strawman argument is? I never said that grain wasn't the least expensive variable."...and Oh btw Food is cheaper today that it ever was ... I'll repeat it since you decided to ignore it the first time..."I refuted that at least twice earlier in the thread. Go back and read those refutations.
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E85Prices Posted 10:53 am
06 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 10:57 am
06 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 11:46 am
06 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 12:49 pm
06 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 1:06 pm
06 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 8:35 pm
06 Jul 2009
you discuss with your kids the enviromental damage you are doing flying
them to exotic locatioins around th eworld to pet animals.Ah, not sure what the ...link between PETA and carbon sinks is, but, ah, maybe we'll just let that one lay there till it quits steaming."...As fra as "illegal" to make corn ethanol after 15 billion gallons ..the
reason is so that we start producing advanced ethanol, next gen eration
ethanol/bio fuels.."
Bzzzzzzt. Wrong. Want to try again or should I just give the right answer to spare us both another round? If corn ethanol's impact is "miniscule' as you keep insisting, there is no reason to cap its use and no reason to develop cellulosic. We can put all of our corn in our gas tanks.That's ridiculous of course, and by association, so is your argument that corn ethanol's impact is "miniscule." The cap is set because corn ethanol's impact is not miniscule. The only hope of increasing the ethanol blend is to develop a fuel that does not usurp cropland--thus the advanced fuel mandates.When I said "illegal" it was in reference to your comment "in fact we have a Law that wont allow it." I'm thouroghly familiar with the madate schedule. Now that you have it up let's take a look at some problems with it.What are the odds that we will meet those advanced fuel mandates? We are about to blow past the first one. And what were our politicians planning to do the day the blending percentage exceeded the ten percent limit on car warranties and older car fuel systems? Not a problem. I'm confident lobbyists will succedd in shoving a 15% blend down consumers throats any day now.At a smaller scale, Washington State is already missing its biofuel mandate goals. It would be funny if the ramifications were not so serious with so much money wasted."...So to be asking how we are going to feed an additional 3 billion peple
is out in left field and has no relavence to corn ethanol..we wont even
be making corn ethnaol by the time th eworld has an additional 3
billion people..."Well, that's odd, your schedule there says we will be making 15 billion gallons from it right through 2022. The world pop will be just shy of 8 billion by then. And gosh, what if the politicians are wrong about cellulosic being the fuel of the future? I realize that our politicians have never made stupid mistakes in the past, but it could happen one day.http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/img/worldpop.gif
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SacramentoE85 Posted 9:06 pm
06 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 9:06 pm
06 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 9:07 pm
06 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 7:24 pm
07 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 8:16 pm
07 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 10:54 pm
07 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 11:13 pm
07 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 11:28 pm
07 Jul 2009
studies. To calm your nerves, there was nothing new there to me...."Right."...Every study that you reference can be offset by 1 or 2 studies that say
the opposite...."Also not true.Your self image as the disseminator of truth is out of phase with reality. I don't know how you can still read the monitor at the end of your nose.
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SacramentoE85 Posted 7:13 am
08 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 10:21 am
08 Jul 2009
the bushel is starch, which is used for the ethanol. 1/3 of the bushel
is protein, which becomes livestock feed. The other 1/3 is CO2 which
is bottled and sold or returned (not released from the ground as is the
case with petroleum) to the atmosphere from whence much of it came
(obviously some came from the ground from the fossil fuel input). So
corn ethanol does not displace corn..."70% of a bushel of corn used to make ethanol is lost to the human food chain, which includes poultry, beef, and dairy. 30% goes on to become cattle feed. Whatever CO2 is captured in an ethanol refinery goes straight into the atmosphere again as soon as someone opens the bottle of pop carbonated by that CO2.
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E85Prices Posted 12:08 pm
08 Jul 2009
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Biodiversivist Posted 8:30 pm
08 Jul 2009
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E85Prices Posted 10:08 am
09 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 5:32 pm
10 Jul 2009
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SacramentoE85 Posted 5:46 pm
10 Jul 2009
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