Running dry

Time to save our nation’s dairy farmers 51

spilt milkThis post orginally appeared on The Ethicurean.

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Did you see that movie Flash of Genius? It follows the unlucky Robert Kearns, played by Greg Kinnear, as he spends his life (and his savings) perfecting the intermittent windshield wiper, only to have his idea snared and used without credit by the Ford Motor Company. He pursues lawsuits against Ford and other car companies out of principle, he says: It is simply not fair that all of his hard work enriches Detroit’s Big Three while leaving him and his family virtually penniless.

I’ve been thinking about that movie a lot lately as I’ve pondered what dairy farmers across the country are going through in this period of tragically low prices. Years of investment in land, equipment, and animals; years of hard labor; and what do you get for it? Nuthin’. Or, more precisely, you get about half of what you put into producing the milk you sell to dairy processors. The prices farmers receive right now are so low that they are rapidly exiting the market - or exiting life altogether (farmer-suicides are up this year, reports the LA Times). And just like in the movies, companies are profiting off their misery. Dean Foods, the nation’s largest fluid milk processor, reported record earnings in the first quarter of 2009; profits for Kraft’s cheese division rose 59% in the same period.

The movie ends with Kearns winning court battles against Ford and Chrysler, pocketing nearly $30 million for his hard work (most of which comes right back out again to cover attorneys’ fees for the other 26 lawsuits he pursued). Our nation’s dairy farmers have nothing so vindicating to look forward to. If things continue the way they’re going, reports Farm Aid’s Hilde Steffey, the U.S. risks losing upwards of 80% of its dairy farmers by year’s end, leaving us with just 12,000 dairy farms total. That’s 1 dairy for every 25,000 Americans.

The dairy crisis, and its solution, comes down to a question of fairness. Is it fair that large dairy companies are undercutting U.S. producers by importing cheap milk protein concentrates from other countries and using them instead of U.S.-produced milk? (And is it fair that the FDA does nothing to stop the practice, even though MPCs aren’t approved as a food ingredient?) Is it fair that the dairy industry is so consolidated that a few large companies can manipulate the price of milk to their own benefit, pocketing profits while dairy farmers are left holding the bag? Is it fair that farmers have shelled out more and more for feed and hay in the last few years, but the prices they receive for milk have fallen? Is it fair that consumers are still paying for milk what they were earlier this year, while farmers’ prices dropped 30% in January alone? Hell no!

There are a lot of things that need to be fixed here, but the most urgent task is to keep dairy farmers on the land while we figure out what to do about the rest. That’s where the government comes in. In 1937, when farmers were pouring milk out on the side of the road because of Depression-induced low prices, Congress passed a law that allows the Secretary of Agriculture to adjust the price of milk to reflect the price of feed and other economic conditions that impact their production costs. Well, if there ever was a time for the Secretary to roll out that authority, it’s now.

If Vilsack doesn’t do something, fast, Farm Aid predicts we could immediately lose up to 20,000 dairy farmers. Where does that leave us? With imported milk, empty farms, out-of-work farmers, and a whole lot of dairy cows with a future in fast-food hamburger. And that kind of milk does nobody good.

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  1. Bud Dingler's avatar

    Bud Dingler Posted 7:57 am
    16 Jun 2009

    suicides? really? you have a new story to cite? the small local dairies selling to coops and farmers markets are unaffected. the big mega dairies are the ones being hurt. not sure this is a bad thing then eh? BTW did you interview any dairy farmers for this post? might be good idea.... 

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    1. Avelhingst Posted 8:21 am
      16 Jun 2009

      Here is an article from the Examiner, and here is another from the Jamestown (Colorado) Sun.I assure you, all dairy farmers are facing serious trouble, expecailly those selling to Cooperatives.  In fact, the small local dairies who are MEMBER/OWNERS of Darigold (Washington State) have been told they must pony up a significant chunk of change from every pound of milk they sell to transfer to the mega-dairies in Idaho who are floundering around in vast, vast seas of red ink... buckets of money so large that the banks are completely panic-stricken.  Mind you, these are the same farmers who petitioned their Senators (successfully) to KILL the MILC program, period, because the MILC program only will pay out up to a certain amount of milk shipped (favorable to smaller farms).  Fortunately, their senators were shook up by the Larry Craig affair and were not successful in killing the MILC program, for now.

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    2. kflagg Posted 11:14 am
      16 Jun 2009

      Bud:As a reporter at a small newspaper in Vermont, I have spoken to small dairy farmers — and I assure you, they are struggling. It's a complicated problem, and even farmers selling raw milk directly to consumers and organic farmers selling to smaller coops are having a hard time. Organic farmers are worried that demand for their pricier product will fall, now that consumers are pinching their pennies, and coops that buy organic milk aren't taking on many new farms.Milk pricing, as another commenter noted, is incredibly complicated. But a few months back I did an extended look at how the economy, milk pricing, and other problems are hurting Vermont dairy farmers — and what they're doing to get by. I don't want to toot my own horn by any means, but if you're interested in taking a look, you can find them here:Dairy in Crisis, Part One: Milk price crash puts squeeze on county farmersDairy in Crisis, Part Two: Local legislators helpless to change milk pricingDairy in Crisis, Part Three: Farmers seek lifeline for dairy industryDairy in Crisis, Part Four: State's ag landscape changes as dairies dwindle

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  2. Avelhingst Posted 8:14 am
    16 Jun 2009

    The USDA currently has a price-support mechanism in place - the MILC program, or the Milk Income Loss Counter-Cyclical program.  Unlike direct payments or other forms of distorting subsidies, the MILC is designed to kick in only during emergency periods when the price of milk collapses to very unprofitable levels.  However, the formula for the MILC currently does not work well enough: it is akin to having insurance that a farmer will only lose 50 cents on the dollar for his/her milk instead of 65 cents on the dollar. Milk pricing is a highly complex and byzantine world; part of the pricing system is based on some depression-era programs, some on the Chicago Merc. Exchange, some on data supplied by manufacturers and processors, and some on the regional market demand.  The Secretary of Agriculture does have the authority to add allowances in the so-called Federal Milk Marketing Orders (FMMOs) for feed costs.  The FDA has been very lax indeed in the regulation of milk protein concentrates (MPCs) used in vast quantities in the cheese making industry (where most of the nation's milk actually goes) and reducing demand for domestic safe milk. Interestingly, the vast majority of MPCs imported into this country are transhipped through pacific ports from China, Vietnam, and Singapore - all countries that have no dairy export sector - in addition to New Zealand.  The MPCs from China, Vietnam, and Singapore are all produced somewhere else under VERY DUBIOUS health and worker safety regimes, or in places with catastrophic environmental problems (The Ukraine - remember Chernobyl?)  The most famous, and perhaps only, episode of MPC inspection by the Wisconsin state regulatory arm found a massive batch of MPCs going into cheesevats there were, in fact, industrial glue (again, from China).Of course, the industry (led by Dean and Kraft) of milk processors LOVE MPCs because they enable the processors to churn out ever more 'cheese' from their vats without increasing investments in stainless steel or workers.  MPCs are also cheaper, generally, being the god-knows-what catchall of the dairy export world... so long as the meet certain crude protein requirements, it's good to go.  This mentality led to the melamine disaster both in this country's pet food industry and also to the mass poisoning of thousands of Chinese infants (due to the contamination of milk products in that country).The real tragedy, though, is in human costs at the rural level in towns and villages across what remains of the rural face of America near her population centers.  Dairies have traditionally been the anchors of agriculture in many places, particularly places near larger populations/cities.  As the dairies dissapear, so does the other means of income, and so goes the prosperous hinterlands.  Fluid milk, in fact, could be discribed as the most 'sustainable' of all the major commodities; to this day, most fluid milk (excluding in the South-Eastern summertime) is produced very close to the areas of consumption on smaller, family owned farms that incorporate grazing practices and very strong environmental and ethical standards.   With the dissapearance of this industry at the hands of mega-conglomerate greed, then we face a future in which ALL major foods are divorced from the point of consumption. Hey, I'm lactose intolerant but I survive on dairy products for most of my protein needs.  Dairy policy wonkishness is not exactly a common part of civil discourse, but it does matter.  A dairy cow, too, can produce almost three times as much total protein on a given amount of pasturage as a beef can; she is the most efficient converter of non-digestible matter into a valuable package of human-sustaining life as can be found (well, dairy goats may be more efficient, but not nearly as widespread).  Increasing the price to farmers does not mean an increase in price to consumers - just as the collapse of dairy prices have not been noticed by the consumers, either.  Ban MPCs in real cheese, monitor and break up the dairy processing monopoly (Dean Foods) that has been allowed to blossom under the Bush Administration, and maybe tweak the MILC program to better allow for feed costs, and both farmers and the public/taxpayers win.

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  3. elkabong's avatar

    elkabong Posted 10:31 am
    16 Jun 2009

    You can thank the dairy farmers for our FAT kids and obese adults. Their hormones and antibiotic injections have created a diabetes nightmare in America. They also receive subsidies, and have for over 50 years.  Did you know we are the ONLY developed country in the world that injects cows with hormones? Its prohibited in the developed world.  If you visit a 3rd world country, like Colombia, Peru, Brazil, you will see that the cows are normal size, and so are the kids and adults. Most people who are lactose intolerant in the US can eat cheese and ice cream in these countries - I am one of many of those people. Cows milk contains more puss and germs than humane urine. I know, you think I am health nut, but I had to change my life because of diabetes and hepatitis. There is a book called "Whats in your Milk" by Samuel Epstein. Read this: http://www.truthpublishing.com/inmilk_p/yprint-cat21403.htm.  I am sorry dairy farmers, but you, your beef brothers, and Monsanto are the source of America's Health Care crisis. Did u know that Peru and Brazil have NO health care crisis and are almost energy independent?

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    1. Avelhingst Posted 8:12 am
      17 Jun 2009

      Interesting note about systemic use of rBST (the hormone you are referring to): although use in the US peaked at about 50% of total dairy cows getting injected twice a month, that number has fallen as the economic returns also go down; unfortunately, the cows become unable to produce enough of the normal BST for themselves and cannot take the withdrawal very well. Monsanto worked UNBELIEVEABLY hard to get rBST on the market, worked INDEFATIGUEABLY hard to get dairy producers to use it, and worked UNETHICALLY to keep produced in such a way unsegregated in the market AND force its use upon other developed countries - through the WTO.  Troublesome, no?I think you would get a great deal of valuable information from a book called "The Devil in the Milk" by Keith Woodford, out of New Zealand (available on Amazon, I think).  Lots of good information about the whys and wherefores of certain chronic illnesses and dairy products.  A good read too.

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  4. IanErikSmith Posted 10:43 am
    16 Jun 2009

    I cannot mourn the loss of dairy farms.Dairy farms are places of suffering and exploitation where individuals are confined so that their captors may take the milk they produce for their young and keep it for themselves.  Mothers are quickly and forcefully separated from their offspring.  If the young happen to be male and therefore incapable of producing milk, they are sent to the veal industry.  Cows at dairy farms are kept constantly impregnated, and when milk production drops they are sent to slaughter as though they were broken machines being sold for scrap.Upton Sinclair noted that "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it".  This being the case, the fewer people who are personally invested in this cruel industry the better.    

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  5. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 10:54 am
    16 Jun 2009

    The dairy industry is getting what it deserves at long last. Go to the notmilkman.com site to see what I mean. Milk and milk products have no business being inside a human body.Look at how the people who consume the most dairy products end up: overweight and physical wrecks in the long run. Osteoporosis is highest in the high dairy producing countries.Research shows clearly that dairy is the substrate of nearly every degenerative disease going. But do you suppose there is research going on to show the link between dairy and cancer? Diabeties, Heart disease? Milk marketing boards block this kind of research.If you want to be healthy, a good start is to get dairy products out of your life. Tell the dairy industry to go back to making knitting needles, buttons and glue with it.(Bear in mind that I'm not talking about the African Maisai who live on a mixture of cow's blood and milk. That is an application you're not likely to try. They have centuries of adaptation to their diet and to come off it would and likely had caused them major dietary difficulties.)  

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    1. elkabong's avatar

      elkabong Posted 11:06 am
      16 Jun 2009

      I think the correct URL is http://www.notmilk.com/

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  6. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 11:12 am
    16 Jun 2009

    You're right. Thanks. It's a site well worth the visit.

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  7. elizahleigh Posted 11:35 am
    16 Jun 2009

    Someone on an online green social network (http://www.greenwala.com) addressed the plight of dairy farmers just yesterday in the community's Green News discussion group. They spoke about some of the problems that milk farmers are facing, such as cash strapped consumers drifting away from costly organic milk in favor of cheaper conventional choices (which are currently priced at $1.58/gallon in my area!!!) or cutting it out of their diets altogether. They also mentioned that organic certification is quite costly and organic feed is practically cost-prohibitive.There is an intriguing option that one New York Based organic dairy is employing in an attempt to stay afloat -- perhaps this model should be followed across the board by all of the little mom-and-pop dairies across the country: http://www.tinyurl.com/mtlb5q<!--Session data--><!--Session data-->

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  8. GoVegFOW3 Posted 11:38 am
    16 Jun 2009

    I hope to goodness that the collapse of the entire dairy industry is realized.  Is anyone else bothered by the fact that 1) we are the only species to drink milk from another species and 2) we are the only species to drink milk beyond infancy?  Cows produce milk to feed THEIR young, period.  There is absolutely nothing we need from drinking milk that we can't get from another, much healthier, source.  The dairy industry --large- or small-scale-- is not a pretty one, so let's not pretend it is.  Elanor, are you honestly worried about dairy cows with a future in fast-food hamburger?  Either you are not or you have not done your homework, because if you were actually concerned or had done your homework, you'd realize that the second those dairy cows can no longer produce milk, they are sent to slaughter.  No farmer has the resources available to maintain cows simply to maintain cows.  If they are not producing milk which equates to no money coming in, then the only thing left for them to do is sell the cow for its meat and other parts.  They are in it for the business, and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.  If you truly believe farmers respect the cows in their industry for being the living, breathing animals they are, then tell me how many of them keep the animals after they stop producing milk.  Also, let me remind you that the dairy industry DIRECTLY supports the veal industry.  As soon as calves are born to their mothers, the boys are taken and sold to veal farmers, and this is an ugly truth about which most people remain blissfully ignorant.  Even if you personally do not eat veal, you are responsible for its existence by being a dairy consumer.  Again, I ask you to tell me how many respectable dairy farmers rightfully allow the calves to remain with their mothers after they are born.  And, the dairy industry (along with the meat industry) plays a lead role in the production of greenhouse gas emissions, which we know all too well are what greatly contribute to global climate change.  And, that is the most inconvenient truth about which no one seems to want to acknowledge or address.  So, is it really time to save our nation's dairy farmers?  Absolutely it is not.  And, maybe you should think a little deeper about your movie analogy.  If anyone is being ripped off and not getting credit for something they've worked so hard to produce it's not the dairy farmers, but rather the COWS.  You are right about one thing, however.  This issue comes down to a question of fairness; fairness for animals, humans, and the planet we all call home.

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  9. tingo Posted 7:34 pm
    16 Jun 2009

    i live in north florida, usa (where is format - this is toooooooooooo small!) ~ have a small family farm; our neighborhood has raised 13 kids + and now so far 5 grands on raw milk fro m our jersey milk cows.  i am a 4-H leader, and work with kids showing dairy cattle and goats.  there used to be six or seven small family owned dairies in this and surrounding counties ~ as of four years ago ~ NOW THERE ARE NONE.  REPEAT, NOW THERE ARE NONE.  why????  because this country, this government, the people are too lazy, too apathetic and too greedy and/or busy to look around, listen, read about the decline of just aboot everything.  we don't want to know ~ as long as there IS milk in the stores....everything is ok.  ya know whut????   i THINK i'd like to see the semi-truckers NOT deliver  to the towns and cities for aboot....what ? a week????  why not have some young eager-beavers research and compile a list of the non-huge non-mega-agribusiness dairies, then list the ones going under, have gone under ; the families that have had to sell out, lost the land owned by their family for decades; cite, family/business(dairy)their human interest story - and print the practices employed by the megadairyconglomerations on the global scale - how the united states citizens owning these megahugedairies are deliberately ruining smaller dairy businesses and the families and people who run/own them.   well, i am ranting.....i wish people would realize this:  no farms, no ranches, no forests ..... NO FOOD, NO CLOTHES, AND NO HOUSES !  maybe one day i'll send the grist a document i have written and use to teach school kids, adults, anyone stopping by my display (i do heritage events, themes such as: 'why have farms?' at county fairs, in the schools and other similar events).   now, i'm babbling !      enuf!    tingo          

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  10. jwebb's avatar

    jwebb Posted 8:33 am
    17 Jun 2009

    Aaah, why I love Grist.  As a person that grew up on a subsistence farm and live in a farming community i assume that i am the only poster that fits this category.  Please all of you reading that produce your own food degrade my comment.  I can only assume that you live on plant based products grown on farms cleared from forests and jungle and fed with conventional fertilizers and protected with pesticides?  I don't know any large scale organic farms that use only green fertilizer so you probably use the end-products from the same cows my neighbors have been tending for 7+ generations (Virginia).  These cows aren't factory farm chickens or pork kept in buildings.  These animals are part of the family- farmers get up at 3 in the morning and work 7 days a week to live off the land.  I'm sure your city blocks are wonderful beacons of self-sustainability.  How do you propose these land managers keep their land?  Selling farms just brings more sprawl and yuppie yards.  The friends i have who are part of co-ops or small creameries are still affected by the prices of commodities and low return on milk.  You can choose to not eat meat as a moral question, you can say that milk doesn't belong in our bodies, but when do you start producing the products you use?  I'm sure someone will loan you some rubber boots to walk a mile in.  Give me (and the farmers) a break.

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    1. Storm Dragon Posted 2:51 pm
      23 Jun 2009

      jwebb, you are not alone.  I, too grew up on a subsistence farm, and I presently reside in a rural area of central California.  (Lots of ranches and vineyards.)  I have also, over the years, seen an increasing amount of urban sprawl.  Being disconnected from the sources of our food is a dangerous situation, to be sure.

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  11. tingo Posted 8:39 am
    17 Jun 2009

    I'LL TELL YA WHUT ~ I THINK ABOOT 80 % OF THE PEOPLE IN THE USA NEED TO BE DUMPED IN A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS SO THEY CAN REAP THE BENEFITS OF THAT COUNTRIES' FOOD, WATER, CLOTHING AND SHELTER SUPPLIES.   TINGO

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    1. elkabong's avatar

      elkabong Posted 8:48 am
      17 Jun 2009

      I would agree. In Colombia and Peru, people eat fresh food cooked daily at small restaurants all around town. Only the Rich can afford McDonalds, Pizza Hut, and Chili's, and lots of Beef!  Very FEW people eat fast food daily, the veggies are fresh and healthy. You would be amazed how little bloating and fullness you would get eating in one of these countries. My wife's sinus' clearup in Peru, even with with the pollution of the capital city. Upon our return to the USA, they flair up. It is very disturbing to see how the food and chemicals have affected the US. Since nobody can afford a car, everybody takes a bus or Taxi, so there is not a DUI problem either.  Here is something interesting, in the mountains the people grow their own food and raise their own animals (goats mostly, some pigs and beef). They NEVER get heart disease OR cancer. They only get cholera if they don't boil the water. Why can't we do that? Even if they did inject cows with hormones, nobody can afford to eat beef or dairy more than once a week.

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  12. SkyHunter Posted 9:33 am
    17 Jun 2009

    What better time for them to turn their CAFO dairies into organic vegetable farms.Humans are not designed to consume bovine excretions.Forcing children, especially black children (70% being lactose intolereant) to drink milk at school is what you get when industry invades government. The rise in type I diabetes is the direct result of government policy dictated by the dairy lobby.Here is a sample of what goes on in your government.Link

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  13. tingo Posted 9:41 am
    17 Jun 2009

    NOT CERTAIN WHERE YOU SHOP IN PERU - I GREW UP THERE:  LIMA, CHICLAYO Y CHIMBOTE - AND YES, THERE ARE FRESH FOOD MARKETS - BUT NOT EVERYWHERE, AND NOT MUCH ACCESSIBLE TO THE POOR IN THE OUTLYING AREAS.  STILL.  PERU HAS MADE GREAT STRIDES IN UPGRADING THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR MILLIONS, IN SPITE OF THE LUMINOSOS, AND THEIR ILK, THANKS TO PEOPLE LIKE MY GRANDFATHR AND COLLEGUES, USA AMERICANS, PERUVIANS ALIKE.  BUT.......MALNUTRITION , POVERTY CONTINUES FROM THE ANDES, HIGHLANDS, DOWN TO THE AMAZON AND THE COAST.I WILL STILL MAINTAIN THAT THE USA HAS THE FINEST QUALITY AND QUANITY OF FOOD AND WATER ON THIS PLANET - AND THE STATEMENT: '....DAIRY FARMERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OBESITY IN CHILDREN...'  GIVE ME A BREAK !!!!!    FAST FOODS????? SODAS???????  CANDY???????  PARENTS WHO OPT FOR THE EASY WAY.........EVER WATCH SHOPPERS IN GROCERY STORES??????     PREPACKAGED MEALS.....SUGARED 'FRUIT' JUICES.......THE EASIER TO SERVE, THE BETTER, RIGHT?????     TINGOARRGH!  BAAAAA FER NOW - HAVE A FARM - GOT STUFF TO DO - ENUF!!!!   :)   TINGO

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    1. elkabong's avatar

      elkabong Posted 3:41 pm
      17 Jun 2009

      I dont' know when the last time you were in Peru, but I was there 3 weeks ago. In the poorest parts of Lima, like Carabayllo there are plenty of fresh markets. Ok, its not perfect, but it is improving significantly, they had 10% economic growth in 2008.  America does have the highest quantity of food, but only because of hormones and antibiotics.  You are right about fast food, but what is the #1 fast food product? Hamburger. And milke shakes. What do they drink that with ? Soda. Eliminating beef and milk would signficantly reduce diabetes and obesity, of course fried foods are next.

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      1. tingo Posted 4:53 pm
        17 Jun 2009

        CERTAINLY NO PLACE IS PERFECT, AND IT DOES MY HEART GOOD TO KNOW PERU ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD -;  I THINK WE CAN BOTH AGREE ON EATING FRESH VEGETABLES AND FRUITS - WE GROW MOST OF THE VEGETABLES  WE EAT, ALL OUR VARIOUS MEATS, 'GROW' OUR OWN MILK, BUTTER, CHEESE, YOGURT, COTTAGE CHEESE - GRIND AND BAKE ALOT OF OUR BREAD - AND HAVE PEAR TREES WHCH DOUBLE AS APPLES FOR US.   OF COURSE MOST FOLKS CAN'T DO THIS, BUT A HUGE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE COMPLANING OF THEIR FOOD MAKE LITTLE EFFORT TO PICK AND CHOOSE HEALTHY FOODS, AND HEAVEN FORBID THEY SHOULD ACTUALLY  COOK !  I DONT THINK THOSE SUGAR COATED CEREALS AND MICROWAVABL 'MEALS' JUMP OFF THE SHELVES INTO THE SHOPPING  BASKET BY THEMSELVES !  TINGO

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  14. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 10:22 am
    17 Jun 2009

    Here in Ontario, Canada one municipal jurisdiction is finally looking into how to help small farmers get their products to market. They finally realised that what is good for the big farms is not good for the small farms. And yes, it's the small farms where the healthiest food is likely going to come from since they aren't factory farms.It's illegal here to sell raw milk though one farmer is defying the government and doing it by selling shares in the cows. Needless to say the government is prosecuting him.Regardless, consuming dairy products is an extremely unhealthy thing to do. Milk is a mucus forming "food" that coats your innards with muck and is a primary cause of constipation. Most people think of constipation as a temporary problem. But it is not. Constipation is a major warning that your diet choices are wrong. Ignoring this warning leads to all sorts of health problems.Most people think constipation is merely a blockage of the large intestine. Medical dictionaries define it this way. But that is far from the truth. Constipation is an indication that your entire body is being gummed up with mucus that becomes pus. It settles in every area of the body and makes us suseptible to infection, colds, flu, chronic bronchitis, and many other respiratory diseases. Ear infections can generally be traced to excessive milk consumption and a diet high in flour products.Consuming bread and milk, long considered staffs of life, essentially coats the inner colon walls with paste. Other stuff sticks to it. Imagine a chunk of steak stuck to your colon walls for a few years at body temperature. Over-weight people are generally carrying around 5 - 15 pounds of dead fecal matter in their colons. The longer they do this, the more stretched out of shape the colon becomes until it becomes non-functional.Learning how to fast properly and then learning how to eat a mucusless diet is the only solution to chronic constipation.Better than 90% of North Americans are chronically constipated thanks to the high dairy content and refined flour content of their diets.Constipation is a root cause of heart disease, strokes, dietary cancers, respiratory illnesses, glandular disorders, mental disorders and the list goes on.Most people think that once a day is regular. In fact, one bowel movement a day is an indication of serious constipation if more than one meal a day is consumed. Even if you're more regular than that, it is still possible to be systemically constipated.Most doctors do not have a clue how to treat constipation properly or even diagnose it themselves since they too are chronically constipated. Doctors as a profession are more likely to die of constipation related causes than any other profession. They take their own advice and drink plenty of milk.Health food is found only in the produce aisles of grocery stores - especally the organic stuff. The other aisles are full of fake food you have no business eating if you want to stay healthy.Of course you need a little B12 and so on that is only available from red meat or as a supplement in a multi-vitamin pill. Since you only need 1.3 grams of protein from all sources a day, you can live life large eating mostly fresh fruit and vegetables - available from the smaller farms if only you could figure out exactly who has what where.Our food supply has been so messed up by food marketing boards it will take a lot of work to re-connect people with the sources of their local foods. And then you have milk and meat marketing boards lying through their teeth about how healthy their products are while they're polluting everything in sight with animal waste.And just when you thought fish was a great way to get protein, scientists have issued a mad cow alert because the slaughter houses are now selling the offal to fish farmers.This is another wacky scenario because fish cannot digest most of that material. It just passes right through them. The jury is out on what diseases stay with the fish. But as I said, Mad Cow Disease is a low but significant risk now from cultured fish of any description.It goes to show that criminals are everywhere - especially inside our food industries.  

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    1. tingo Posted 3:30 pm
      17 Jun 2009

      IN RESPONSE TO GULLYFOURMYLE  :                                                                                                                               I AM A REGISTERED NURSE - HAVE WORKED IN HOSPITAL > INTENSIVE CARE UNITS SOME 35 YEARS; LIVED ABROAD  AMONG THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, AND I HAVE TO SAY, YOUR COMMENT IS SO COMPLETELY ERRONEOUS IT DEFIES EXPLAINATION.  THEREFORE, YOUR STATEMENT MUST BE A JOKE, NO?   TINGO

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  15. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 4:42 pm
    17 Jun 2009

    You may be a registered nurse but I stand by my claim. I've done 30 years of health restoration research and have seen the evidence. You might also stop and think about what sort of shape most nurses are in. Not too good - because they don't know how to eat properly.People in third world countries almost never suffer the dietary problems North Americans inflict on themselves because they don't have access to the fake foods, dairy, refined flour and so on.If you have trouble envisioning how mucus forming foods work, try mixing flour and water on a bread board. You get glue. You learn that in school at five years old. It doesn't get less gluey in the human body. It becomes slime. So does milk. You don't learn about health restoration in an intensive care ward. There you are more concerned with keeping people alive and you do it mostly with IVs not milk. If you were to use milk, your deceased count would go through the roof.When you embark on a program of health restoration, the first thing you deduct from your diet is dairy products including eggs. The second is flour products. The third is red meat. The fourth is white rice. Of course, if you're attempting to restore your health, you aren't drinking booze, overdosing on sugar.There is no such thing as restoring health properly while ingesting any of those products. You can argue all you like but science supports what I'm saying. It's nothing new. Of course to most of the hidebound medical profession it may seem new since the medical profession is mostly about nuturing symptoms.Think about it. When you go to a colon specialist, you are seeing a gastroenterologist - a doctor who specializes in chopping out your colon, not restoring it.Gastroenterologists should be teaching people how to care for their colons since colonic health is the basis of health itself. If you don't have good colonic  health you are not healthy.Given the vast knowledge available about colonic health, there should be no such thing as a colostomy. But the reality is that the medical profession has made it a cash cow. (There's an appropriate word!) Instead of giving patients proper instructions, the patient is "groomed" for future surgery and the chronic constipation allowed to get worse and worse. The patient becomes an income stream for the medical profession. If I wasn't rigtht about that, the medical profession would be in all the media telling people how to eat properly so they avoid future colostomies, bowel cancer, Crohn's, irritable bowel and all sorts of other diet related injuries.Essentially, the medical profession commits assault on their patients on a daily basis in public and gets away with it because people can't face discussing their bowel habits.As well as studying human health I've also studied the dietary health of various animals and fish over most of my life, off and on since I'm not a professional. It turns out that if animals - any animals are fed the same muck North Americans ingest, they get the same dietary injuries and a host of other ailments.The meat packing industry have started selling animal waste to fish farmers. Fish farmers may know how to make a fish grow and get it to market in a hurry but that does not make them fish health and nutrition experts. Since business owners are always looking to cut costs, the fish farmers are sitting ducks when it comes to having their stock contaminated with offal. Not even pirhannas eat much red meat - it isn't available. All fish including sharks need massive amounts of vegetable material in their diets to get the same things we get from fruits and veggies - vitamins, minerals and trace elements as well as the protein they get from eating seals, penquins, whales and dolphins. The reason there are a lot of shark bites but much few people actually being eaten by sharks is because the typical person on a western diet tastes terrible. Not that many animals like to eat rotting food which is what most people are due to their diets. Man-eating leopards will take a native over a white person any day unless they literally have no choice between that and starving to death.  The animals we typically think of as carnivores lions and tigers, leopards, hyenas and so on need a lot of vegetable content in their diet. The first things consumed from the carcass of the prey is the digestive tract - specifically the intestines - because that's where the predigested vegetable material is. Without that plant material, the carnivores would weaken to the point where they could no longer catch their prey. Carnivores can't digest plant material themselves. Their digestive tract isn't long enough. They just don't have the plumbing.Regardless, no living creature on earth has evolved to carry dead fecal matter around for days, weeks, months and years on end with impunity including man while it putrifies inside them. The notion that a bowel movement every three days is normal as stated in medical dictionaries is completely false. So is the medical factoid that everyone is different. That is an urban myth based on abject stupidity. Normal is a meal followed by one or more bowel movements, depending on what was eaten and how much. If the proper amount fibre is in the diet, the bowel movements have to follow 12 hours or so later. This is not rocket science. Dairy and flour products dramatically stifle this normal process. So essentially, as soon as a North American is weaned from mother's milk, our infants are started on a program of dietary abuse and injury unparalleled in the natural world. Then they are further abused with sugar and flour products.Think about this - how are the Taliban and Al Queida managing to hold off the combined resources of the western world on very little food and very little water? They aren't eating Twinkies and ice cream. In fact the cheapest and safest way to defeat them is to feed them what we eat. Our diet causes thirst and depletes energy. You can't live in desert conditions for long on it.  

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    1. tingo Posted 5:01 pm
      17 Jun 2009

      NOOOOOOOOOOO, TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES DON'T GET A CHANCE TO 'SUFFER' THE AILMENTS OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION, THEY ARE DYING FROM MALNUTRITION AND STARVATION.   AS FOR YOUR COMMENT ABOOT RNS........NOT WORTHY OF A RESPONSE.   RN   TINGO

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  16. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 7:57 pm
    17 Jun 2009

    It's the truth though, ugly as it might seem.I've been in my fair share of hospitals and in most of them virtually all of the nurses are over-weight and over-worked. That is not a recipe for good health. Some of them are obese. What sort of an example is that as a health professional?I've noticed doctors have been slimming down over the last few years. Not as many landing barges on the floor. Can you imagine getting medical advice from a porky doctor? What sort of message does that send? When I was a kid my doctor was a fat guy. He eventually died of a heart attack. Following his nutritional advice nearly killed me. Lucky he died before I did. Then I started managing my own health. It's amazing how much good information is out there that doctors know nothing about.Try asking a doctor why they don't instruct their patients about proper fasting techniques (as I have). Fasting is the most powerful healing tool on the planet. If you ever hear of a doctor that is skillful in this the most natural, simplest and effective healing technique there is, please tell us about him or her.The last doctor I asked told me his patients didn't want to know about fasting, they wanted a pill. Oh yeah? Did you explain the difference to your patients? No. In that manner, doctors remove the ability of the patient to gain enough information to make an informed choice. That is contrary to the Hippocratic Oath. Money over-rules the oath over 99% of the time.That is typical and is the prime reason why in developed countries, health budgets are deep in the red. In the US, you can go bankrupt over not knowing how to do something as simple as fasting and proper diet to avoid getting diabetes. How insane is that? When you have surgery anywhere, you can count on being fed all the wrong things when you are convalescing because the nutritionists don't understand the concept of mucus-free and mucus forming foods. To make matters worse, nutritionists who have at least a rudimentary food education have to conform to a doctor's notion of post-operative nutrition. Since most doctors only have about 40 minutes worth of nutritional education, this is a classic example of the tail wagging the dog.Politicians who are charged with running the medical systems know nothing about either nutrition or health restoration. Consequently in the developed world we have big business telling us what is good for us and the medical and pharmaceutical communities taking full advantage and get away with real murders while blocking the unsuspecting public from learning that the fake foods they have been brainwashed to eat are exactly what is keeping them the sickest species on the planet. The entire thing runs like a well oiled machine. Fake food to make you sick, drugs to keep you sick, more food to make you sicker until you are finally drained of money. At that point you are homeless and dying. Or another member of your family has to take over financing your wreck of a body as you continue to chug milk and cookies.Did you ever stop to think that other species manage to survive without any doctors? Why is that?That's not to say that the medical community is entirely corrupt. Just most of them. A top scientist here in Canada described the process this way when I asked why no research was being done on the obvious link between dairy and cancer: They (the medical reseearchers and scientists) are pigs at the trough.I went through his government published Canadian Cancer journals for that year and those prior. They were filled with fraudulent experiments all funded by our government. It makes me feel bad every time I see or hear of a run for curing cancer knowing what I know. When you know what you're looking for, fraudulent medical practices stick out like a big sore thumb.Not everyone in third world countries is dying of malnutrition. If they were, those countries would be depopulated in a couple of weeks time.Over-population is why people in third world countries are dying of malnutrition, thirst and wars.And as ugly as this sounds; donating aid to those countries makes it even worse because then populations expand using off-shore resources that are subject to unexpected reductions or elimination altogether. When that happens, water resources dwindle and people and wildlife are left with either too little or none. Then they're forced to migrate. But since migration is how most species on the planet live, and how the planet restores itself, that at least is a natural response to an enviro cycle. Only there are so many people they devastate the land as they go.

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    1. elkabong's avatar

      elkabong Posted 8:22 am
      18 Jun 2009

      Fasting? I had no idea that was useful. Do you have any links or reccomended books? I agree with you about Doctors. And whats up with the GIANT nurses? Huge pork eating goliaths. I once saw 5 of them have lunch at Subway by the hospital. They all ate footlong sandwiches with chips, I felt odd eating a 6" veggie and water :(.  By the way, in case everyone is wondering, this picture was shot of me at 3 months old after my first formula - so mom went back to breast milk.

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  17. Avelhingst Posted 6:50 am
    18 Jun 2009

    Uff da; Gullyfourmyle - Your posts feature wildly erroneous findings mixed in with a few solid observations.  They make me feel tired.  But I'd like to point out a few things -First, medically defined constipation and your-definition constipation in North America result primarily from 1) inadequate fibre in the diet (whole unrefined grains, fresh veggies);2) inadequate physical activity, and 3) inadequate water consumption. Secondly, milk is NOT a glue.  Milk is a colloid, and features really really amazing properties as a food.  Casein in milk clots in the stomach and makes milk more digestible, not less; and furthermore dairy fats can be the most beneficial of all the saturated fats out there (yes, I know, a lot of people will be upset with me because I state such facts - here and here are some supporting evidence).  I don't BELIEVE anyone has to a be a food scientist to get this, but maybe I am expecting too much.Thirdly, you may have a much better cassette of arguments if you compared the north american population - of which persons of European descent (like yours truly) make up the majority - with their relatives across the water.  Perhaps their lifestyles could better give us clues as to what makes Canadians and their southern neighbors so chronically ill.  The governments of several countries sponsor truly interesting research into diet and illness over there.Like to an earlier commenter, I would recommend that you read 'The Devil in the Milk' by Keith Woodford; that may give you a better insight into the role dairy products may play in chronic diseases and why such roles seem to vary wildly from place to place.  Disclaimer: I am not pushing commercial sales of this book; I just believe strongly that it has something to teach us that is both new and has been suppressed in research in this country.

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  18. SkyHunter Posted 7:37 am
    18 Jun 2009

    Tingo,There is a key on the right side of your keyboard that is labeled "Caps Lock'. It works as a toggle to toggle off and on the capital letters. Writing in all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Not only is it rude, it is the best way I know of to be ignored and dismissed as being mentally disturbed.Feed consisting of 20% casiene by calories, when fed to mice with with precancerous lesions on their kidneys results in a 1000% increase in tumor growth. When fed plant derived proteins the mice do not develop tumors.Casiene in the bloodstream stimulates the production of antibodies. In a developing immuner system these antibodies get confused and attack the pancreas. Homogenizing milk helps assure that these foreign proteins are absorbable through the intestinal wall directly into the bloodstream.
    Milk is great for growing a calf from 70 pounds to 700 very quickly. Compare it to human milk and the reason not to drink it is obvious. Your children are not cattle, don't feed them as if they were. 

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    1. elkabong's avatar

      elkabong Posted 9:22 am
      18 Jun 2009

      That's funny, my caps lock is on the left side of my keyboard.  Pancreas attack? Hmm-here comes diabetes , thank u Mr Dairy Farmers. And Pfizer thanks you as well.

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  19. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 10:11 am
    18 Jun 2009

    From Medical Terminology for Health Professions, Sixth Edition, Ann Ehrlich, Carol L. Schroeder, 2009:Constipation is defined as having a bowel movement fewer than three times per week.The definition goes on to describe stools typical of the conditon - dry, hard and small as well as hard to excrete.While you are certainly constipated if you are having fewer than three bowel movements a week, it fails to note that you are also constipated if you are having fewer than three bowel movements a day. Since this is a book the medical community uses to teach its people, you can understand why nutrition, diet and sound bowel management information is nowhere to be found in a typical doctor's office.Constipation is caused by insufficient water, insufficient fibre and a lack of exercise - particularly sit ups, crunches and the like. AVELHINGST mentioned grains and fibre but forgot fruit. The fruit component is in fact more important than the grains and veggies since you are more likely to eat it fresh and alive, thus getting all of the nutrients.Casein is a constituent in glue and paint - it helps paint stick to walls and canvas. As an artist I use casein paint derived from milk and have for years. Up until the 1960's milk was used for adhesives for wood, paper coating, leather finishing, synthetic fibres, buttons, knitting needles, buckles and other plastics. This was a very appropriate use of milk and we need to go back to it to help get oil products off the market.I had my tonsils and adenoids removed as a child. Ever since, when I consume milk or milk products I literally fill up with mucus like someone who has a bad cold. It encourages infection like there is no tomorrow. I've done enough experiements on myself to know how various foods affect my body. I've also spent years cleansing the muck out of it that I put in during the first thirty years of my life. It was no easy feat. When I started researching health restoration, just like with animals, the first thing you learn about is colonic health. You learn which foods keep it healthy and which foods harm it. Dairy products are extremely harmful to human colons despite the well advertised benefits.Milk has also been linked to fast food addiction. Dairy products are a truly nasty product line despite how good they taste. I'm not saying dairy doesn't have its uses though but the sad fact is that milk as a product like corn and fossil fuels have been applied to uses far beyond what is safe in the name of profiteering. The entire product line is misrepresented by the industry.Here in Canada in recent years, the Ministry of Health has begun to admit at long last that milk is not the panacea it has always been touted to be. Health Canada has cut its dairy consumption recommendations way back from what they once were and they will be cut a lot more as the internet and access to information exposes the ugly truth about dairy products.The best book on the market is Tissue Cleansing Through Bowel Management by Dr. Bernard Jensen D.C., Ph. D. Nutritionist. This book is a masterpiece though a little out dated now. If this book were taught in schools, and as part of health and safety courses, chronic illness would be reduced by over 50% in developed countries.In that book are plenty of shocking photographs of exactly what dairy, flour, red meat and rice do to the human body. They are some of the grossest photographs in print.Here is a link: http://www.amazon.com/Tissue-Cleansing-Through-Bowel-Management/dp/0960836071There are other ways to get the book on line but I chose that link so you can read the reviews.Another health researcher was Dr. Arnold Ehret. He is the most important researcher in all of history with respect to foods, their applications and how to restore your health using food, water and nothing else.His research was stunning in its simplicity and its effectiveness. I use his work myself and between Jensen and Ehret's information, I have helped many people recover from debilitating illnesses; some caused by doctors. I've saved a few lives with this information.Ehret's books, Mucless Healing System and Rational Fasting are milestones in medicine. True to form, the Medical Establishment in North America and Europe moved quickly to suppress Ehret's work and it's only due to the internet that his work is now becoming more widely known. Google it and you'll find it.Unfortunately the rights to Ehret's work are owned by an individual by the name of Alvin who is purportedly translating more of Ehret's work from its original German. However, he is elderly and working at a snail's pace if at all. You can order the books from his site but the forum site he runs is a dead site. He pays to keep it running but neither he nor his webmaster have any interest in it as far as I can make out.Ehret himself died from a fall on ice and banged his head on a sidewalk. There is also talk that he might have been murdered.At present Dr. Arnold Ehret's work is the best kept medical secret in the world and the fact that his information has been suppressed by the medical profession is nothing short of criminal.Here is the Wikipedia link. It is worth a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_EhretHere is the link to the Ehret Publishing company where you can get his books: http://www.arnoldehret.org/By combining Ehret and Jensen's work, you can very effectively learn to manage your health properly - an essential skill when you consider the expensive alternative in the US.One thing you will not find those books talking about is restoring health with dairy. It can't be done.When I'm talking about health restoration, I'm not talking about dealing with symptoms. That's what the medical profession does to line its pockets. Health restoration is about learning how to solve core health problems that cause the symptoms. Doctors and scientists spend billions inventing fake remedies for all sorts of maladies that are due to eating the wrong and fake food. Kind of like shooting yourself in the foot and wondering why it hurts.Ehret's book is written in quaint language. Bear in mind that he died in 1922 and wrote in German. The translation sticks tightly to the original intent of the language.Since this is a Grist thread and I read it all the time, you can imagine the angst I feel when I read here about factory farms and dairy. They can't be obliterated fast enough as far as I'm concerned. They represent farming perverted into environmentally criminal activities.

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  20. SkyHunter Posted 9:13 am
    20 Jun 2009

    Please forgive me Elkabong, I suffer from dailysex errrr. I mean dyslexia.
    The easy way to restore one's health is a whole foods, plant based diet. Heavy on the organics.

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  21. Teuthis Posted 5:10 am
    21 Jun 2009

    So what if humans didn't originally drink milk as adults, or that of other creatures?  Some people had freaky mutants for ancestors, who equipped them take advantage of this steady protein source.  That's good enough for me.Dairy may have health costs when consumed in excess, and certainly has environmental costs when produced in huge concentrated quantities--I'm surprised to see it supported on a site that has only criticism for the beef industry.  But consuming it is no more "unnatural" than any other behavior unique to humans (e.g. cooking, wearing clothes, using computers...)

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  22. Bud Dingler's avatar

    Bud Dingler Posted 11:25 am
    21 Jun 2009

    Teuthis so right my friend. you can tell an urban granola muncher from their idealistic rants etc. if they want to go au natural try using Mullen leaves for wiping their hind end- they can save a few trees....heres a visual clue for what to look for http://www.coldspringschool.org/Mill/mullen.jpg  

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    1. elkabong's avatar

      elkabong Posted 9:03 am
      22 Jun 2009

      Bud Linger and Teuthis ,Alot of folks become health nuts because they get sick. Drinking Milk and a regular diet of Beef will eventually kill you of a stroke or cancer. However, you and Teuthis will never believe this until you get sick, then you will blame it on chance, but not food.  The only that that is for sure is that neither one of you has actually done ANY research on any of these subjects, your just a sucker for TV advertisements - "Beef, its what's for Dinner"..translation... "Cancer - its right for America".  This is NOT a personal attack, go the American Cancer Society and check for yourself, depending on gender, you could have a 1 in 2 chance of cancer in your lifetime. ONLY in America. The land of suckers.

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      1. Teuthis Posted 7:07 pm
        22 Jun 2009

        I never claimed that consuming lots of dairy was healthy, only that, for those humans with bodies adapted to digesting lactose, it's not especially unnatural.  Thanks for your concern, but I eat much less beef and dairy than most non-vegetarians I know, and am quite healthy.Oh, and I'm not urban but I like to munch granola.  With yogurt.

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    2. tingo Posted 4:41 pm
      22 Jun 2009

      urban granola muncher??????? i love it !!!!    tingo

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  23. SkyHunter Posted 8:03 pm
    21 Jun 2009

    Bud the troll.How droll.I really like the ignore feature on this forum.

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  24. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 6:46 am
    22 Jun 2009

    As a matter of fact, using leaves to wipe your butt does not save any trees at all. If everyone on the planet started doing that, we would transform earth into a desert planet in less than a month. So Bud, I understand your frustration with our tampering with your comfort zone but there are no simple answers and there won't be anytime soon. All we can do is try to take the most obvious steps.Essentially what we have to do as a species is try to recapture life as it was before oil and coal without giving up too many gains we've made in the meantime. In order to do that, as a species we have to conserve resources of all types and eliminate processes that don't contribute to the larger goal.Toilet paper as wasteful as it is in every sense, does preserve all sorts of other plant life.Biddets were invented  to essentially do a better job than toilet paper. As a meat eater Bud, you have no doubt experienced the difficulty of even the best of toilet papers really doing a bang up job on your posterior after a gut-wrenching bowel movement. With a biddet, the residue is washed off completely and you are sanitary without having killed a single tree or other plant.  Failing that meat eaters like yourself no doubt, spend the rest of the day dragging a perfume behind you best appreciated by dogs.Vegetarians on the other hand, as long as they stay away from mucus forming foods, don't have that problem. They get a clean wipe every time and use much less toilet paper than you do and do a perfect job every time to your none.Teuthis had a point about what is and is not natural. Humans, rats and other similar species are successful because as species, we adapt to a wide variety of food sources and food types. We are opportunitist. The problems arise when we indulge in too much of a good thing. The dairy industry is an iconic monument to too much of a good thing.So is the entire food processing industry. In their haste to put product in front of customers, they have devoted most of their energies to speed, efficiency and taste. Quality of the food is a distant, mostly ignored concern other than bacterial levels.When you watch the new movie, Food Inc. you will get to see in living colour a smidgeon of what I'm talking about.Most young people growing up in developed countries have no idea what untainted, natural produce is all about and for the most part don't regard it as food. The debate in schools about lunches and soft drink machines tells you just how divorced from reality better than 90% of the population is.Oh and something I forgot to mention earlier. On a mucus free diet, allergies and food sensitivities clear up.When I started experimenting on myself after 30 years of eating a "normal" western diet that was killing me, my wife called me "bubble boy" after the original bubble boy who was allergic to the twentieth century. As I learned to deduct allergy triggering foods from my diet, my allergies disappeared. As well as various food allergies, I was also allergic to penecyllin and other antibiotics. Now I'm allergic to nothing. Other people I've helped have seen the same results.Of course if you don't eat organic, the pesticides in the fruit and veggies may still cause reactions. The chemicals you've ingested and the chemical formula they have turned your body into determines your level of sensitivity to what. How it works, no one knows. But even a modest education in chemistry tells you that you cannot accumulate lethal solvents from the air you inhale, the food you eat and the liquids you drink and not end up a completely different chemical formula than you are supposed to be. Your chemistry education and common sense tells you that has to have consequences that can only get worse unless you personally intervene to mitigate the damage.You can't mitigate all of the damage because the planet's air is completely polluted. There is no such thing as unpolluted air on earth except that which is trapped underground in isolated pockets. Same for the water and to a lesser extent, the soil. (Except that the soil is like a bank. What you save in it accumulates and keeps on accumulating.)The best you can do is to eliminate the worst substances from your diet. That again is the food that causes your body to accumulate mucus and pus as well as dead fecal matter.Bud, you snide remarks are completely out of line though you do have a right to express your opinion. You have to understand that just because we as a society have been doing something that turns out to be wrong but you and many others are comfortable and wanting to continue on doing that same wrong thing, that is no reason to criticize others who are more open minded and more capable of at least considering that there are other options.Before I embarked on my health crusade, I ate my share of icecream, drank as much milk as the next  person stuffed myself with meat, rice, cakes, cookies you name it. I understand where you are coming from. But having been exactly where you are and having seen and experienced both the consequences of that diet and the phenomenal benefits of consuming a healthier mix of products, I can tell you, you need to rethink your position as, beyond taste, there is no benefit to it.And guess what? After eating properly for a while, when you go back to the foods you're used to, your taste buds have made a recovery also and you can taste the putrification in the foods you used to enjoy. You can taste the real flavour of the ingredients.I do agree completely with one of your points - it is unfathomable that this site would consider supporting the dairy industry. There is nothing eco-friendly about any aspect of the dairy industry beyond personal use on a farm that practices all natural production methods - including milking by hand.

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    1. tingo Posted 4:38 pm
      22 Jun 2009

      gully ~ go back to WHERE??????before coal and oil????????????noooooooo, don' wanna meet T-Rex or chickens whut look like velociraptors~jes kiddin' ~ honestly though, i don't think you can see the trees for the forest .  you seem to have all the answers, as long as it comes from a book, but i don't think you'd make it on , say, our farm, where we do have running water and even ac - sometimes ! (north florida). most folks i know who have gardens, grow/raise own food, use what is at hand ~ and i don't think you could hack the work done here, beyond a 'trip to the country' , to ' do things naturally', whutever that means.     tingo.`  

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  25. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 7:17 pm
    22 Jun 2009

    As a matter of fact I could hack the work done there. It would take a bit of getting used to but hard work never killed anyone and I enjoy it. What would suffer would be my back. It's twisted like a corkscrew. But I've lived in harsher conditions than your Florida farm in the bush up here in Canada with no running water and no electricity. I do fine. You on the other hand would likely freeze your tail off.I've been to north Florida and enjoy the area but never had a chance to stay since I'm always on my way south or back home. I'm familiar with your local wildlife although actually living there would mean some acclimatization. But I've caught venomous snakes in Trinidad, England and the US. I know the insects and the spiders.My answers don't all come from books. A lot of it comes from practical experience including most of the health stuff. I don't just read about things, I think about them and I apply what I learn.For example, I'd identified a kidney problem using Iridology when I examined this person's eyes. You can't use iridology to make definite diagnoses but you can identify broad conditions. In this guy's case, he only had one kidney. I couldn't tell that but I could tell that he had what seemed to be an inflammatory condition. He explained that he had recently had an operation and while he was under the ether, the surgeon had opened him up to check on his remaining kidney without his permission. Post operatively, his remaining kidney had developed an infection. I asked if his doctor had told him to avoid dairy, meat and flour products. He said no. I suggested he stay away from dairy etc. until he felt that the kidney infection was gone. Since he was in some pain he decided he had nothing to lose by following my advice. Subsequently his kidney problem cleared up. Now there is no way to prove that following my advice had anything to do with his recovery but until he took it, he was, according to himself, getting progressively worse and he was very worried. You would never convince him that my information was not correct.That is anecdotal and can in no way be used to malign milk or not. But there are countless stories like that. To prove it one way or another requires modern research and clinical testing. But the dairy industry wants no part of it and actively lobbies against such studies. Why would they if there was nothing to hide?

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  26. Bud Dingler's avatar

    Bud Dingler Posted 7:42 am
    23 Jun 2009

    what a joke - drinking milk and eating meat = cancerjust like the unfounded claims I read here about GMO = sick peoplei live in Heartland of America and run a small farm. I drink lots of grass fed milk (1-2 gal per week) and eat grass fed meat and so did my pappy and his pappy and his pappy. maybe its in our genes but they lived into their 90's. there's a lot of purported wisdom here but very little to back it up - mostly anti everything hype. it aint that hard to determine real food from crap if you grew up in the country. its the city folks who are more easily confused.  

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    1. elkabong's avatar

      elkabong Posted 9:40 am
      23 Jun 2009

      Bud,
      99.9% of the Milk and Beef us city folk eat is not grass fed. It 'ain't' hard for you, but it is for most of the population, we can't very easily get food that is not processed.  I think living on a farm and being self sustaining is probably the healthiest way to live. It is my goal to do the same when I sell my business, and I am looking forward to eating a little beef again once I raise my own cattle. Yes, I know its alot of work, but that is something I am not afraid of.<BR>I have a question for you Bud, have you tasted the beef and milk from a city supermarket? If so, have you noticed any difference?

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  27. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 9:35 am
    23 Jun 2009

    Nice try Bud but no cigar. But you did bring up some extremely important points:You drink lots of grass fed milk. Urban people drink lots of corn-fed milk.You eat lots of grass-fed beef. Urban people eat lots of corn-fed beef.Cows fed with grass are eating food they evovled to eat. Cows eating corn are eating food they did not evolve to eat. Corn fed cows get sick a lot because they don't have the digestive equipment to handle corn with impunity. Consequently they are loaded with antibiotics which contaminate the meat, the environment and the people who eat the meat and drink the milk.As a farmer descended from a long line of farmers, you and your forebears exercise far more than urbanites or suburbanites - even those who work out regularly and intensely in a gym. You know yourself that no body builder could come to your farm and keep up with you doing a normal day's work.People who do workouts get beautifully defined muscles but they are not systemically tough. That has been demonstrated repeatedly on the reality TV show Survivor.Diet is only one half of the health equation. The other half is exercise. If you eat more than you spend in energy, you gain weight. That's why there are so many rotund nurses out there. They work harder physically than most urbanites but they have no clue how to eat to ensure that they aren't packing on the pork. To make matters worse, most of their exercise is repetitive. They get used to it and develop skills to minimize the effort their job demands. So the more experienced and efficient they get, the fatter they get. Farmers can arrive at exactly the same state exactly the same way if they decide that rather than living off their land, they are going to adopt an urbanite diet. It may take longer but eventually turn into human pumpkins as well. I'm sure you've known farmers like that.I'm sure you've also known farmers who got fat without an urban diet. Those are the people who may eat the least. They've basically starved their bodies to the point their cells essentially decide they are going to start storing everything to fend of starvation. It is the same thing that happens wihen urbanites go on their fad diets, intermittently starve themselves then go back to their old habits. Eventually, their bodies refuse to cooperate and stomach stapling and liposuction become options. It's called yo-yo dieting.The only real cure for a yo-yo diet is massive amounts of exercise over a long period of time - like the rest of your life.So in your case,  you are absolutely right - it's in your genes.Most likely constipation is not so much a problem for you either if you are getting your exercise. Lifting weights strengthens more than abs. Exercises strengthen the colon as well. A person who is visually flabby has flabby ineffecient organs that have no strength and impaired stamina if the person should get sick. You Bud probably don't get sick very often. If you did, your farm would be an inefficient reflection of your body.Beef, pork, sheep and chicken growers likely aren't stupid enough to eat the factory farm raised products. That is an assumption on my part. I can't imagine anyone who sees what those animals consume would be brain dead enough to feed it to themselves and their families. Yet those same people are feeding it to the rest of the country. How is that for ethics?You are also right about city folks being more easily confused about the food they eat. For reasons that escape me, most people take absolutely no interest in where their food comes from, what it will do for or to them. They get what they deserve in every case.What they are getting is the cancer epidemic I predicted in 1985, the diabetes epidemic I predicted in 1990 and the Candidiasis epidemic I predicted in 1995. The cancer epidemic is just starting to get legs. The diabetes epidemic is just getting started. The Candidiasis epidemic is actually the basis of the other two but most people have never heard of it and the medical profession doesn't want anyone to know about it. Untreated, it is fatal 100% of the time and it is an illness that is developed directly from the diet eaten by most North Americans. It is also directly related to constipation. It is a nasty way to go.I'm not going to describe it further here. You can Google it. There's lots of info on the net.So the thing is Bud, you have no call to be criticizing what I'm saying because you are an anomally. Hardly anyone eats like you do anymore. So you can't presume to tell anyone how wonderful meat and dairy is because what you are eating and drinking bears no relation to what the rest of us are being inflicted with.However, even given your diet, an urbanite would still experience all of the health problems for the simple reason there is no way in an urban setting that most people can get the amount and type of exercise you do. They also can't get air as clean as you inhale. So you can count yourself blessed. But if I were you, I'd still be eating as much in the way of veggies and fruit as possible.

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  28. SkyHunter Posted 10:25 am
    23 Jun 2009

    I blocked Bud so I didn't read his post, but if he is arguingthat his grass fed cows are healthier because they are eating the food they evolved eating, IE grass. Then it stands to reason that humans are healthier eating the food they evolved eating, IE plants.By applying the same logic to himself that he applies to his cows, and starts eating a plant based diet. Then he would have first person experiencial knowledge, not just anecdotes.He currently only knows one way and believes it is the only way. This is a common human trait, defined psychologically as a confirmation bias. When I see this behavior, especially in myself I am reminded of the Tolstoy quote:"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted
    man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
    thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
    persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is
    laid before him."

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  29. jwebb's avatar

    jwebb Posted 10:31 am
    23 Jun 2009

    Wow, I wish i didn't get emails about these comments.  We were talking about the decline of the agrarian section in America, specifically smaller milk producing farms.  What we ended up with was GFM lecturing on fasting/colons/kidneys- how about a fast from a 500 word comment?  I will assume that your 30 year career as a health restoration researcher which led you to 3 claims of epidemics is well documented, but you seem to over-generalize other items.  Calling nurses obese is rude, I saw a fat person riding a Vespa yesterday, so i guess all moped riders are fat?  Saying that wiping our butts with leaves would make the world a desert in a month- guess those rainforest tribes just aren't wiping enough?  Let Umbra figure out if a bidday is a good use of water resources, it isn't part of this discussion.  So please- tell me how my ancestors lived on my farm well into their 90s off of what they could grow or milk...  Tell me how different breaking down milk proteins is from gluten in my body.  Inform me without snide comments or baseless claims so that I feel like i learned something to make myself healthier and still support my farming neighbors.  This site hopefully does support the small scale farmer or i wouldn't be here.  Period.  It allows all of us a chance to learn from each other.  Talk, don't lecture

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    1. elkabong's avatar

      elkabong Posted 11:32 am
      23 Jun 2009

      What is rude about the nurses is the hypocrisy of their business. How can one be encouraged to take better care of themselves when the very person helping them is obese? Not all nurses are obese, for sure. I almost married one, and she was very healthy. However, it seems that a higher percentage are obese than the population standard - would you respect an aerobics trainer or personal trainer who was obese? Or a nutritionist? Folks who are getting paid to help people become healthy should live by the same standard they propose to their clients.Your ancestors lived into their 90's because DDT, Monsanto, and antibotics had not been invented yet - simple as that. Of course, antibiotics are a miracle drug, but they are now abused in most cattle. Funny thing about the Vespa riders, if they are American, then 60% of them are fat, and 40% of those are obese. Those are facts of America. Here is some more interesting facts: 40% of the American requesting health insurance have pre-existing conditions and therefore cannot get coverage for themselves in a normal fashion. They have to purchase cheap "guaranteed issue" plans. These are a direct results of diet and exercise. Funny thing is that the same diet in Europe does not yeild the same results, the French eat cheese, beef and drink wine with less obesity and cancer. So while I believe that beef and dairy consumption should be reduced, if it really is homegrown, I don't think it is an issue.

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    2. tingo Posted 2:32 am
      24 Jun 2009

      well said !  my pore ole gray cells couldn't get it together enuf to say it as well.  and how wonderful it must be for for 'elk...' to live so perfectly !  actually, i've never heard so much psychobabble in all my life!  elk and gully outta write a book - but wait......are there enuf trees ????  as for obese RNs - pore ole lazy, slovenly, gluttonous nurses, havng to drag themselves away from their soap operas , bon-bons and couches, to measly ole 12 > 16 hour shifts, 4-5 or more days a week, mandatory overtime in many hospitals, usually critically understaffed , and having to deal with sick or injured people, who often, at least initially, are angry, frightened, frustrated, miserable, in pain at varying degrees, ....... some of   you guys make me sick!   at times i think you don't know s__t from shinola!  (moderator - i apologize - the phrase just seems so appropo).   are we all on the same planet???  but i guess, at least we all care - we must, as we take the time to think, (ummm.... ?) and write and read, on issues such as these.  god bless us and keep us, from ghosties and gullies an' things that go bump! in the night.    tingo        

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  30. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 12:05 pm
    23 Jun 2009

    Yes the epidemics are well documented. To find out about what is going on in those fields all you have to do is some online research and you'll find all you need to know and more on each subject.Elkabong made some great points.I did over generalize on everything because if I wrote everything I know on each of these subjects I'd probably crash the site or be banned, your eyes would glaze over and you'd stop reading.Calling nurses who are obese obese or fat isn't rude it's merely an observation. Why would I call a fat nurse skinny? I mentioned nurses because they are iconic in the health care system of every country on earth, yet typically they are in the worst physical condition as a highly educated demographic. That is not necessarily their fault. There is only so much time in the day and they work long hours. But since they are who they are, they have a greater need to be fit and properly informed about nutrition and they are not. Just whose fault is that?Aboriginals living sustainably in a rainforest or even in the desert are not the same as the entire populations of urban areas trying to access leaves for personal cleanliness. Entire forests would have to be stripped bare to accomplish the feat. Then the leaves would shrivel and die. For the leaf thing to work, you have to have proximity going for you. Even a single person could not grow enough vegetation on a typical urban lot to take care of his or her own needs.A biddet is a good use of water resources - especially if you are on septic because no toilet paper would end up in the tank. You use a facecloth - don't forget your behind is now perfectly clean. Much cleaner than your mouth. It would save trees too. The water gets recycled. Less water is used if the biddet is used properly.I explained how your ancestors managed to live into their nineties in the last post. You must have missed it.Your comment about gluten makes no sense. I explained also in an earlier post that I wasn't going to get technical here. I posted the books you can buy to read first hand from the experts how it works. I am not going to rewrite their work here.There is no reason not to support small scale farms. There are plenty of reasons why we need to get as far away as possible from the commercialization of large scale farms. I thought that was obvious from what I wrote.As for the lecture, I do a lot of it and it's how I speak normally. Anyone is free to comment and lecture to me or try to prove me wrong. It makes the discussion more lively and introduces points of view that otherwise would never be heard.This discussion has been broad. But nothing in nature happens in cookie cutter fashion despite the efforts of burearcrats and factory farmers to try to make it so. Everything has consequences and those consequences need to be explored. When I joined this thread the talk was already taking aim at dairy farmers and their products. But there wasn't much being said about the real impact those products have at the cellular level on you or your family. When writing a book you want to keep the story line on topic or the publisher won't print it and they assume the reader is too brain dead to grasp that there are often relevant related subjects that need to be considered as part and parcel of the problem. If the broad picture is never considered you eventually get the Love Canal sitution. That's exactly how we arrived at factory farms - abominations from every perspective I can think of.

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    1. tingo Posted 4:04 pm
      28 Jun 2009

      ah yaaa, gully - we agree that 'factory farms', as you put it, certainly could be restructered, down-sized, employ MORE people, owned and run by families, groups of people - all of whom have a desire to farm, have the skill, training, experience, etc etc etc - howsomever.......money, politics, well-intentioned but very impractical influences (groups, etc) will immediatedly step in to prevent this .  for these reasons, our leaders, local, state, national, lack the guts to emplement changes,($$$)and it doesn't matter if they are republican, democrat, far left, far right, in the middle, over in noooo nooooo land.  it's almost like a verbal civil war:  the sides are SOOOOOOOO polarized, we can't, WON'T communicate, exchange ideas, heaven forfend  we should compromise!!!!!! :"....yer sellin' out to tha enemy!!!"  i know there is common ground.....i think we just get sucked into taking 'hard nosed stances' and sometimes maybe just don't know how to get around it.....i don't know......preaching to the choir would be boring......this forum certainly isn't !'   besides, i wuz a perfek chile......wer'nt we all ?! LOL!tingo.   

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  31. gullyfourmyle's avatar

    gullyfourmyle Posted 6:42 pm
    28 Jun 2009

    Relax Tingo. The factory farms will soon be gone. Go and read my posts under the frog article in Living Green and you'll see what I mean. 

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